3757
28 posts
May 16, 2006
12:29 PM
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My family from Bruce Cooper (119/514)has been bred for 40 years with only red checks,Blue checks and Bronzes with occasional Spangles from the bronze checkers and they are not seldom but are very frequent. What are your thoughts on color and the roll with your particular families?
(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball."
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:53 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
10 posts
May 16, 2006
12:40 PM
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3757,,,,,,I have seen spin in all colors, to say they dont is just pure prejudice. others have seen them also (witnessed), Monty Niebel, Mason and others i forgot there names(I am sorry) seen the spangles and mottles spin and gave there compliments on there velocity with the other harder colors..... It really just takes time, effort,and the right genetics......It can be achieved.......Later dude.................Richard luna
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3757
29 posts
May 16, 2006
12:45 PM
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Greed great input. Monty's birds and mine have the same base (Bruce Cooper) and he flew excellent spinners. I proposed this question because I still hear people say that checks are stiff and my reply is always maybe in your family but the check color has nothing to do with it. It is in the genetics. I remember a gentleman who had whites (actually they are grizzles that look white) and they were stiffer than cardboard.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:53 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
535 posts
May 16, 2006
12:47 PM
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Color isn't a consideration with my birds LD. They will all roll at one point or another. I haven't noticed any one color rolling any more or less than the others. About the only thing I have noticed that "might" have some legitimacy is that the grizzles tend to come a bit warmer as compared to their non-grizzle siblings. That is just the way it appears.
Brian.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
12 posts
May 16, 2006
1:13 PM
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3735---LD,,,,,,I to have no problems with frequency my dark checkers.I agree with you that it can't be a blind general statment,it's in most cases of the fanciers family line(the breeding)....Adios.....Richard Luna...
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nicksiders
594 posts
May 16, 2006
2:29 PM
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Color......here we go again.
What color is a goooood roller?(LOL)
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3757
30 posts
May 16, 2006
2:36 PM
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Nicksiders - I am not asking what color is a good roller but I hear all the time statements about light and dark colors. I do not believe that this has a hill of beans to do with the roll but people have been stating this for over 50 years. I really want to see what facts the forum has on the particular families that they breed in regards to color and the roll.
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dave
92 posts
May 16, 2006
2:41 PM
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It depends on the family. In the birds that I am working with the blues are as frequent as my reds but they handle the roll better. The reds tend to be hotter and a little less stable. If I get a roll down you can pretty much bet that it is going to be a red or a recessive red.
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fhtfire
444 posts
May 16, 2006
8:48 PM
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I truly believe that color of the bird means nothing. I think one loft will differ from another...A perfect example..you see mostly reds in Tony's loft...are they all over cooked...NOPE. It truly depends on the loft. I have grizzles that are very good and grizzles that are ok. I have Blacks and blue checks bounce...and I have had recessive reds stiffen up...blue bars that are kick but and blue bars that are not. I think that people who say..that all grizzles are hot...need to get out of there back yard. It all depends on the loft and stock selection of that fancier. One loft may have RR on the hotter side...and some lofts may not have RR that are hot. Brian says it perfect...when he says...in "my loft" that is the key...in "My loft". My grizzles seem to be some of my best birds..but to be honest it is pretty much across the board. Nick has seen my A-team on a good day and it is a mix of colors..I have a couple RR, a couple Blacks, some grizzles, some red check badges, some Mealy bars, a blue bar or two, some blue checks...some baldies....across the board they are all about the same. I pulled a nice blue check that flew for 1.5years and was fast deep and frequent with a heart of a champion...but aren't blue checks supposed to be on the stiffer side...it all differs from loft to loft. There is no set color that is hot or not hot. Trust me a RR will bounce just as high as a grizzle or a black or a blue...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
772 posts
May 16, 2006
9:06 PM
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I think that the reputation of dark ckers being stiff came from guys pedigree breeding around 514 and only the paper mattered , 90 plus percent of my birds are dark checkers and they do not have a reputation of being stiffs , in fact I could drop them to the hot side if I wanted to ruin them.
Scott
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roller
9 posts
May 16, 2006
9:33 PM
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color don't mean a thing!! you want to breed for color go ahead, I don't even undstand the bias that goes on in here, hard color, soft color.......hard spin, soft spin. hot birds, cold birds, color don't mean jack. soo prejudice...and for what so that they can put their egos on a pedistal. period
spinning like a hard ball
hardball
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
15 posts
May 16, 2006
9:51 PM
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Roller, SO TRUE!!!!L-M-A-O...... Richard Luna
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
537 posts
May 16, 2006
10:07 PM
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What Bias?
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roller
15 posts
May 16, 2006
10:11 PM
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Brian, don't tell me, you don't sense any bias here..oh or is it just people's opinion..it is softer to phrase itthis way you think? For the fainted heart.
snapping out
hardball
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nicksiders
598 posts
May 16, 2006
10:18 PM
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Color does not influence the roll. The color varies from family to family. Just so happens that my best spinner was a red check so I breed the red check and low and behold my loft is now basically red check. Doesn't mean that the best spinners are red checks; just means my best birds tend to be red checks.
Color don't mean a damn thing!
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roller
18 posts
May 16, 2006
10:20 PM
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Thor, the roller god is speaking..LOL
and rolling
hardball
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3757
32 posts
May 16, 2006
10:24 PM
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I am glad to read that I am not alone in knowing that color means nothing. Keep um spinning!!!! Also, Scott I think you are correct in saying that many of the individuals who quote the light / dark color in birds issue are paper pedigree breeders!
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:54 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
538 posts
May 16, 2006
10:32 PM
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Hardball, first off, do you have a name?
Second, people will always have a different opinion, generally based off of experiences they have had. The only bias I see here is that overall most people feel there is no solid connection between the roll gene and the color gene. There is however, some connection between character and some recessive genes which is why it is most common to hear others speak of their recessive red birds being "hotter" than their non-recessive counterparts. There are "trends" in every loft if a person looks hard enough and breeds enough birds over time. One trend I see at my house is that once a roller gets beyond 18 months of age, it will be less frequent and exhibit more control over the roll. Yet, the recessive red ones seem to not exhibit this metamorphisis, and continue to roll with the same frequency as they did in their younger months. That is not all-inclusive, just what I can say that I have experienced with my birds.
Brian.
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roller
21 posts
May 16, 2006
10:40 PM
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Brian, you are usually good at explaining why. Thats good..In short are you saying there is a consensus or just the person's experience. Look we have at one end the newbie and the other ene, top roller men. So the expereince is all over the place. In your loft you have the right to say that your rec reds are hotter. Let me ask you, can we coin all the experinces and say that yah, rec reds tend to do this...becasue I sense that there are others who will differ from this line of thinking
shrinking ball
hardball
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
540 posts
May 16, 2006
10:48 PM
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A consensus is a general agreement. I don't believe we are taking a vote on the subject, only fanciers offering their opinions of their experiences in regards to a question. Until there is scientific Proof, we can only offer our opinions. If everyone who participates in this thread "agrees", based on their experience, that recessive reds are generally "hotter", then you have a consensus. But you must continue to dissect the matter and understand that it has nothing to do with the phenotypical color, but rather how recessive genes have the ability in certain gene pools to "weaken" character. Character controls whether or not the bird is stable. Birds with too much character roll infrequently. Birds with not enough character roll too much and often kill themselves. A person can achieve the same results by breeding from birds which possess other recessive (not visible) genes which alter character quality.
Brian.
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roller
24 posts
May 16, 2006
10:56 PM
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"we must continue to dissect" god has spoken
but
how funny, with all this knowledge and yet, the mystery roller is still a phanomena.. and color is just one tinny tiny bit..hmmm
Brian, I also do sense that people are hiding in the woods even yet...
we need the big dogs in here to teach the little dogs new tricks or is it the opposite, maybe some big dogs have gotten over train and can't teach anymore tricks..foood for though...no harm intended
rolling as usual
hardball
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AIREDALE
2 posts
May 17, 2006
3:05 AM
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Color in Rollers seems to be the most derisive argument over the years.Back in the late 50's early 60's rollermen that favored the Pensom strain were critical of other strains (Whittingham ect.)stating "Your strain has pretty colors and type,but don't spin".The Pensom supporters favored Blue Checks, Red checks and birds of the harder colors.This seemed to be the feeling of the day "Good color = no roll, roll= no color".Now we have flying rollers and show rollers.I believe the performers of today are better as a whole.This is probably the result of more specific breeding (SPIN),better training,feeding, and housing.If spin is the primary factor, color just introduces another variable in the breeding program.If your birds spin and your happy with the colors great,if your birds don't spin as well, but are colored and marked the way you like them great.It's up to you.You can't make everyone happy.Lets face it the "Ideal Roller" is each individual's favorite Color, Marking, Type, a great Spinner and a prolific Breeder.Something, everyone wants, but few if any possess.The color factor should not be a wedge between rollermen as it has in the past.
Just my opinion.
John
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motherlodelofts
773 posts
May 17, 2006
6:37 AM
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I don't think that everyone is on the same page here as far as color.
I think some are mixing the mongral color debate into this topic which has nothing to do with this topic.
Now on the topic, yes color does play in, it evolves more around particular familys and even particular pairs, here is how it works in "my" loft with my family.
Like I said my family is 90 0/0 percent dark checkers , the smoky birds are the soft side ,they have horn beaks , no black on the toe.
The hard side are the ones with black on thier feet, dark or black beaks.
About the only thing I pay attention to as far as mating consideration is not breeding the harder side together past on generation if I do it all all, the spin is hard on them but they tend to stiffen up.
One particular pair comes to mind where the effects of charactor would follow color to a tee is a R/R mottle cock (or spangle) on a particuar smakey blue ck hen, any dark checkers out of them I could cull out of the nest(never did) as the would be stiff as coud be, the R/R out of this pair would lean hot to very good.
Like Brian said it all evolves charactor following particular colors or patterns , charactor is what determines instability (mentaly weak) or stiffs ( mentaly strong) and yes on a hole it does follow the breed to some degree but more so from family to family.
Scott
PS. Brian by the way , those are very good posts that give people something to think about.
Roller , your posts are pointless and offer nothing, if you are going to just dribble out garbage at least have the nutz to throw your name out with it
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 17, 2006 6:57 AM
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roller
30 posts
May 17, 2006
6:35 PM
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First of all if you were wearing glasses, no one mentioned mongrol color or bird, so cut the crap about that.....
Scott, I know you, you want my nuts, because you want my name, For god's sake my name is unimportant unless you want to attack people instead of birds. This disscussion is about birds, I'm sorry.
So you are saying the roll follows the color, If I am correct.....period
Your dark ckers and your horn beak checkers are different becasue of their color.
You should have figured this one out if you were concentrating on the bird and not the person...the color follows the roll ...remember...think back to our roller forefathers and you will realized your line of thinking.
tight roll
hardball
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2007 8:06 PM
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
44 posts
May 17, 2006
8:03 PM
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What in the hell?
I have never based any pairing of birds based on color, ever. Now, some pairings tend to throw a particular color pattern and that pattern has some various traits but nothing any different than the normal stuff.
Planet Rock Lofts
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roller
36 posts
May 17, 2006
8:22 PM
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that right, becsuse you breed for the roll not the color...thus what ever color follows the roll it follows, no matter what color, make sense?
hardball
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