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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Which Came First: The Standard or The Roller?
Which Came First: The Standard or The Roller?
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roller
14 posts
May 16, 2006
10:08 PM
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Did the standard come first or the roller??
For all you history buffs.
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nicksiders
597 posts
May 16, 2006
10:10 PM
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The roller
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roller
17 posts
May 16, 2006
10:18 PM
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Nick, my friend, when ya answer a question, please give your reasons or it does not make any sense.
one flip
hardball
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nicksiders
602 posts
May 16, 2006
10:54 PM
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You cannot create a standard for a bird that does not exist. So the roller existed before the standard was written.............not hard.
Nick
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roller
25 posts
May 16, 2006
11:00 PM
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What! so there is a standard!!!Nick I thought I heard some say there is no standard. Buddy you could be wrong> What is a pigeon? what is a birmingham roller? who came first?
rolling still
hardball
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
611 posts
May 16, 2006
11:11 PM
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Oh boy, cryptomania is upon us again! LOL LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Finding Roller-Pigeon.Com Beneficial To You? Please Consider Donating To Support Us. Donors Receive A Certificate of Appreciation.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
542 posts
May 16, 2006
11:27 PM
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LOL Tony, why am I starting to get the impression that this guy "roller" is actually "spinnerdom Jim"...lol. Talks 'round and 'round in circles just like him.
Brian.
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C.J.
159 posts
May 17, 2006
4:11 AM
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HHHMMMMM I think he's back.
C.J.
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nicksiders
604 posts
May 17, 2006
9:32 AM
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roller,
Your double talking me; you are putting a spin on everything that is being said on this thread. Give us a fact; even better give us an opinion so we can have a revelation on our own.
By the way, I believe the pigeon came first, then the tumbler, then the roller. Now, Richard believes the spinner came after the roller(LOL). I cannot speculate what will come after the spinner.........what do you think?
Nick
Last Edited by nicksiders on May 17, 2006 9:37 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
20 posts
May 17, 2006
9:45 AM
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NICK, you desribe to me what the difference between a roll and a spin, as Roller said it does't take a rocket scientest to figure it out... L-M-A-off!!!!!!!!!!!R-LUNA
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 17, 2006 12:17 PM
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J_Star
433 posts
May 17, 2006
11:07 AM
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Well, Jimbo is back!!! with a better style of writting but the same nonsense. There we go again...
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on May 17, 2006 11:08 AM
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Ballrollers
364 posts
May 17, 2006
12:08 PM
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I recommend he be ignored if he doesn't at least acknowledge who he is. It doesn't take much in the way of smarts or courage to just ask questions on a list, and then criticize the answers you get...and all anonymously.
Cliff
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birdman
175 posts
May 17, 2006
1:26 PM
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Hardball's writing style reminds me more of 'LEO' than 'Jim'.
Either way, nothing to offer.
Russ
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
21 posts
May 17, 2006
2:22 PM
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NOW IT'S TIME!!!!!!, to start bashing on HARDBALL?????? He responds and his reponse is legite,c'mon just because he doesn't give in to your minipulation, to get his name revealed you guys get all hot headed, man dont let the worst of you get the best of you.....Here's a question, if he is sarcastic who is worse Hardball or the other person's who respond on the post sarcstic also......".N-SIDERS"-----I'm still waiting for my question to be answered from you.
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 17, 2006 2:23 PM
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motherlodelofts
774 posts
May 17, 2006
3:12 PM
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Roller, spinner , who care's , there is no difference in my backyard.
Here there are only culls and here and there one as good as I've seen anywhere , and a whole lot of birds inbtween.
Just don't call them tumblers LOL , although some of the culls are mere tumblers.
Scott
PS Hardball is a dipshit and not even worth responding to
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 17, 2006 3:14 PM
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dave
94 posts
May 17, 2006
3:33 PM
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Why won't all you old timers that have been in it so long just explain to the newbies like us what the difference is. If you guys want us to make a fool out of ourselves then just say so. I liked the way Heine explained things when he was in our region. He was straight forward and said what was on his mind. No BSing on what do you think? What does it mean to you? and then coming back to tell us we were all wrong and that is why us newbies are all messed up and shit. I might not agree with alot of things people say but I appreciate them coming straight out and giving me their honest opinion, like Brian, Scott, Paul, J Star, and even Cliff. Us newbies already got a brains fried trying to learn and dissect all info we can and then we get this mind game.
Last Edited by dave on May 17, 2006 3:35 PM
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Ballrollers
365 posts
May 17, 2006
3:42 PM
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Now, dave.....what do you mean, "even Cliff"! LOL! Anyway, I think that was a compliment.....Thanks for the offering.
We have to remember that there are people out there who either refuse to think things through (so have little to offer), or who can't handle crticism. So rather than take a stand on issues and risk being challenged, and reveal themselves for who they are and how they feel about the issues, they choose, instead, to cruise the sites, offer little, criticise others, talk in circles, and refuse to take a stand. Their intent is generally disruptive rather than substantive. Some people call them internet trolls. They exist on all kinds of sites, not just the roller sites. I guess it's some strange quirk of human nature. I hope we don't have a couple of those on our hands, here. I guess we will see by the way these guys conduct themselves.
YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on May 17, 2006 3:55 PM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
23 posts
May 17, 2006
3:50 PM
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Dave, you are right in all fairness. The difference is VELOCITY,of course with other properties(quality).I have had the opportunity to have seen Scott's birds fly and i will tell you Motherlode you had some speedster's(nice) and there is no way that you would want them slower. If I had birds from a scale of 1-10 on a 6 or5, i would be out of this sport. N-SIDERS thats the difference, so thats what i mean take it to the next level,Dave. Increase the spin not the roll. Not all rollers have the genes for velocity Dave, it must be in the genetics...... R-LUNA
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 17, 2006 3:51 PM
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dave
95 posts
May 17, 2006
4:29 PM
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Yes, Cliff. It was a compliment, lol. Thanks Richard L. I also apologize if I came on too strong. I think that a lot of newbies like me come on this site to learn and then we read all these things and then we get the spin around and we get confused. It's already hard enough for a lot of us to get the basics down. I do appreciate all the info that I am learning here. I took a lot of the info I learned on here and from some of the guys in my area and have been putting them to good use.
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Velo99
423 posts
May 17, 2006
5:34 PM
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Rich,
I know the difference and have been witness. Sometimes it is the way a bird rolls versus the actual speed.Compare it to the huge gyro`s kids ride on at the fair. The harder you pull going over the faster you go. If the bird just rolls and comes out in ten feet most likely it is NOT a spinner. A spinner is the bird who goes 20 30 feet and with each rotation pulls against its apogee and turns faster with each rotation. It LIKES to perform. You can see it in its attitude and messed up feathers with the devil horns on his head when he lands on the box his ass is dragging.
THAT is a spinner
yits
v99
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nicksiders
605 posts
May 17, 2006
5:40 PM
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Richard,
My rollers spin..........the ones that don't spin are dead.
Not all rollers are spinners. Spninner is nothing more than a description of a good roller. A spinner is not a new breed. Spinners have been around before Pensom. The genetics in your spinners are no diferent the the genes of the roller 50 years ago. There are many in this room who have witnessed spinners.....you are not bringing a new concept into the roller world.
I agree with you when you said once you see a "real" spinner your life will change. Many people have had "thier lives changed" because "real" spinners are not new to this hobby. So, what you are telling us about "real" spinners is not a revelation to pactically any of us in this thread. If you think you have found something new from this breed you are mistaken. A ball bearing smooth blurr that snapes from a spin back into flight has been seen by many and most of us who have been in this room for a long while.
I believe most of us in this thread have been exposed to spinners and understand enough to give you a proper description.
Now, you give us a description and your understanding of a "real" spinner and not some open expression.
Nick Siders
Last Edited by nicksiders on May 17, 2006 8:31 PM
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roller
27 posts
May 17, 2006
5:48 PM
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Guys, some feathers are ruffuled, And it was more of the guys that thought they knew more about rollers than there is to know. Why did I take your ego off of your pedistal, threw your beliefs down the drain and expose a weakness in ya. Looks likeI did. Insecurity? Some of you even wanted to know who I am, all of you don't even come close to guessing my idendty....wait, but is that so important..even more than discussions on the bird instead of the person. Look like it's about people now instead, of the bird. Oh I know ....becasue ya all want to bash me for sharing my opinion on the birmingham roller. What my topics touch on is to push the roller forward, tell me did I degrade the birmingham roller in any way??? not. If only all of you attack the birmingham roller instead of the person, than better discussion will come and newbies will learn, If I was a newbie, and reading this thread, I would assume that these roller fanitics aren't really focus on evolving the roller, but fight with words that degrades the bird, by attacking the person.
always rolling deep
hardball
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nicksiders
607 posts
May 17, 2006
6:02 PM
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??????!!
Geesh! It is all dribble my friend. You offer a lot of verbage, but say nothing. We are trying to get some little morsals from you and hell, we can't even get your name. We feel if you have got something to say you should atleast back it up with your name. This proves that you are just not a bag of air and other gases and that you mean what you are saying. We have no idea what values you are giving us.......your asking questions and not offering any answers or information of your own. It is all double talk; it is all smoke and mirrors coming from you.
Just my opinion..........
Your friend, Nick
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roller
28 posts
May 17, 2006
6:13 PM
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Oh I forgot about my original question...Did the standard come first or the roller? Let's ponder on this together huh! First came the wild pigeon, then came the domesticated pigeon, then came a mutation in the pigeon that causes it to tuck its head back and doeses a sloppy roll or tumble like movement, then came the humans who saw this crazy bird, and wanted to see more, so then this mutation was bred for, because it was exciting to see, so thereit goes the evolution of the present bird that can roll; but the point is Now did the standard come first or the roller? With out humans breeding for that mutated trait, there would be no roller pigeon period. Mother nature would have taken control ya see. So it would lead to the conclusion that the standard came first...first becasue human molded and shaped it as he/she wishes according to that person's ideal. Centuries past and people like Pensom and others are still refining the bird, even today, we are refining the bird, but the standard has not gone far since Pensom's time. We have a bird which can serve it's purpose due to it's cultivator's choice. you want a deep champion roller, for christ sake, breed or it, you want a kit bird tha can roll to an ideal of 20-30 ft for competition, go for it,,,,,,,but guys I can't stand that bull shit that some of you bring to the table. Oh individual bird can't do this, can do this, ...oh a kit bird can't do this, can do this. balony. stop bickkering, especially at a person, and work together to creat your ideal..and move the roller fancier forward period.
hardball.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
24 posts
May 17, 2006
6:52 PM
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Nick, I bring no new revalation to table, All spinners in your kits or in your flying stock--- give me abreak!!!!!!(no diresect),i dont think anyboby would believe that...Now what took place through the years , as you should know the way the BR, was breed and not by all but for the most ,,diluted in the breeding for the quality(calibre),for point reasons,and lost the right reason for the BR. For the newbies ,this is what they should know so they can perpetuate the spinning B-R. So please tell them that there is a differance between roll and spin. That's the truth newbies..........R-Luna...............
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 17, 2006 6:53 PM
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D-mitch
2 posts
May 17, 2006
6:53 PM
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Roller let me ask how have you move this hobby forward?
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Velo99
424 posts
May 17, 2006
7:16 PM
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"Not all rollers are spinners and not all spinners are breeders" ~ James Turner
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roller
34 posts
May 17, 2006
7:33 PM
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D-mitch,
If I degrade the roller, that's taking it backward. If you feel offended by me, than you should know your own answer.
Nick, sorry my friend you have to learn how to catch up, I know you have seniority, but that's no excuss
hardball
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D-mitch
4 posts
May 17, 2006
7:57 PM
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Roller sorry but i do not feel any way offended by you i am just a student willing to gain some more knowledge about this hobby.
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3757
33 posts
May 17, 2006
8:23 PM
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Roller - To answer your original question the roller came first. The standard did not commence until the circa 1860's with Harry Young, Elija Thompson and followed by Bill Richards and others. The standard was already in place when Louis Wright wrote the following (Wright Circa 1880) "the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball." But what is the relevance of what came first?
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roller
38 posts
May 17, 2006
8:28 PM
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3757 had we shed some lite, we just learn something did we, no relevence, but somebody in here learned somethng....thats what is important.
hardball
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nicksiders
608 posts
May 17, 2006
8:45 PM
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roller,
Senority does not count in this thread nor in this hobby. We all are newbies.............right?
It is apparent that only you and Richard are in the know. The rest of us are just dogs waiting on scraps from your tables...........kinda like goyium(LOL)
Nick Siders
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
27 posts
May 17, 2006
8:53 PM
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NICK-NICK-NICK,sorry if i hurt your soft spot. Dump the ego and the insecurity and you'll feel alot better. It's ok to not know it all (i-dont) and guess what?, alot of other people dont either, it'll be ok Nick.....R-LUNA
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 17, 2006 8:53 PM
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nicksiders
611 posts
May 17, 2006
9:04 PM
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Richard,
You are assuming that I am insecure and that I got my feelings hurt. I ask what do I have to feel insecure about? I would also ask who hurt my feelings?
Did I overlook something?
My feelings are too old to hurt and retired people aren't insecure. No respect to lose; no money to lose.
Nick
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fhtfire
446 posts
May 17, 2006
10:51 PM
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I step away for a little bit and BAM...I missed it all!!! LOL!! Man...spinner, roller, rocket, gyrate, whirl...whatever you want to call a birmingham roller...the fact is that they ROLL...guess what the synonym for roll is...oh my...spin...spinning is the act of rotating rapidly..or rolling.....roll is spinning...tires roll and spin....this is all slang. No need to argue over a spinner versus a roller....a roller rolls like a spinning ball...WHAT? LOL!! Call it whatever you want..This is funny...I just had a guy ask me if I have ever seen a spinner...not a roller...a spinner.....I said that a roller was a spinner...he got all bent and said a roller rolls a spinner spins...well I am no dummy...and I know that they mean the same thing....He saw one of my birds hit a good 30ft roll and said that is a spinner...I said..yep...its a roller too!! My point is.....he can call it a spinner...I can call it a roller..but guess what....it is doing the same thing in both our eyes...balling up with velocity and quality and snapping out. This is kind of like calling chewing tabacco...chew...chaw..dip..it means the same thing...how about a swig of whiskey...or a drink of whiskey..or a shot of whiskey...or a snort of whiskey...no matter what you call it ...you do any of the above long enough it will get you drunk!! LOL!! I hope my point has gone across...I have spinners and rollers in my kit boxes...I like to watch them spin (roll) in my Hizzy(house) with a chaw(chew) in my lip..sipping(drinking) some coffee and observing (watching) the birdd aviate(fly)...I have been know to say..."that RR Campbell hen is a little rocket" and people know what I mean...it is FAST!!
rock and ROLL
PAUL
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knaylor
191 posts
May 18, 2006
5:40 AM
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Guys, listen to the Olt Timers. They know what they are talking about. All of us comp guys are breeding away from the true BR. Go watch some kits at KGB, Don Oullette, Scott Cambell, Heine, Joe Bob,Weine,BMC,Higgins, and any other top guys house and you will see that. They only have rollers not spinners. Then Go to 3757, R Luna, Roller, and any of the other guys that are doing it right and you will see how the birds are supposed to spin. I am sure they all have great birds flying at their house all the time. Kevin
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
30 posts
May 18, 2006
7:13 AM
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Knaylor, Good Morning, when or where did you see in this site that we claimed,(3757-ROLER-ME). thats all we had was just spinners.What i said was that was my _aim or goal_ in high percentage. ANY one who that claims thats all they fly,,,,who are they kidding,( a fools statment)............I came on this site with respect and to post my opinion and when i did there was some that posted with sarcasim and dispresect!!!!!!!!! c'om on I dont know them and they dont know me,,,but, give it and i'll give it back...............Cars ,yes they all are made to be opratable(i think thats how you spell it),then you got the race cars and different classes, street - pro--and dragsters,there all fast but they all have different engines and different speed records,but still cars. The ROLLER is a name by title and also has different classes, the spinner is the one what gives me that rush and i want nothing less. Yes i know many have seen spinners (present and past), but what i dont understand is if they have seen the better why ,would they not breed for it. dont get me wrong i have seen some very good rollers and i have bred some, but it was the spinner who excelled, because of the velocity.........Some breeders just have a higher breeding standard.....NO DISRESPECT TO ANY ONE...............MY OPION AND THOSE WHO CONCUR.....So PLEASE lets stop with the insults(sarcasim).............R-LUNA
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nicksiders
612 posts
May 18, 2006
7:36 AM
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Richard, Richard, Richard,
You came in here insulting us and then ask us to stop our sarcasim? Come on Richard, When you start it and show your ass be ready to back it up. Many of flyers in this thread are just as knowledgeable as you; many may even be more. Your early statements insinuated that only you had the keys to the roller world was not justified.
Many of us recognized your name and you had our respect and we were willing and ready to listen to you, but you did not give anyone else in here that same credance and respect. How else was you expecting to be treated?
Nick Siders
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3757
34 posts
May 18, 2006
8:16 AM
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Naylor - Where did you read that I stated I am the only one doing it correctly? You have severely misinterpreted anything that I have posted. My intentions are to create dialogue so that the fancy can learn from each other. Your words stating roller, Greed and 3757 is doing it right is complete defamation of character!!! Where did you read where I stated others are incorrect!! This is exactly the kind of nonsense that creates dissention amongst the fancy!
Last Edited by 3757 on May 18, 2006 12:12 PM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
31 posts
May 18, 2006
9:33 AM
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Naw NICK, it was you and one other character that came on strong with your respond, check it out on topic XXX ROLLERS. Man i dont claim to know it all or have the best, thats ludicres, i can back my shit up,I'am one of the most humble guy you can meet. I came in with respect and got some disresect. I did ask to PLEASE to stop the nonsense because it is not me to talk down on people............R-LUNA
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 18, 2006 9:33 AM
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J_Star
434 posts
May 18, 2006
11:32 AM
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I hope we all agree to the last statement from Richard and agree to set the nonsense aside. We ironed out all the differences and appears to be a misunderstanding. Let us play ball with respect and good sportsmenship.
Jay
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nicksiders
615 posts
May 18, 2006
2:01 PM
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Richard,
People in here know who you are and have nothing but respect for your loft management. I apologis for my rudeness. I also apologis to all in this thread for my rudeness. I hope I did not do enough to run anyone off. If I did please reconsider.......this is the most user freindly site on the internet and you need to take advantage of it.
Richard, hang with us my friend.
Nick
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motherlodelofts
776 posts
May 18, 2006
4:17 PM
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Richard I have given this a lot of though and am baseing this around birds that I have or had in the kits , and birds that I have seen in other kits.
With that being said , I would put ballbearing smoothness above sheer speed anyday, wrapped up birds that are ballbearing smooth give the illusion of speed to some degree plus they are very very pleasing to the eye.
Pure speed covers a lot of faults that can be seen here and there.
Now you take ballbearing smooth and add speed to that mix and you have beautiful sight and a class act bird.
On many of these birds the wings won't blur due to balance (depending on style)and some are just smooth balls, many times birds that wings blur out on are nothing more than x wingers coupled with being off balance and speed and on off days they show thier poor style.
Scott
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roller
41 posts
May 18, 2006
5:42 PM
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ball bearing smooth, I like Scott's post. I will aree with you nothing more nothing less.
hardball
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knaylor
196 posts
May 18, 2006
6:45 PM
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R.Luna, you three were talking about how the guys in comp do not breed for the true BR, and maybe how comp has ruined it. I disagree 100% that is my opinion and I have not slammed anyone on here. The fact is the better birds are at guys houses that are competeing. Why??? because they are out traing their birds all the time they are going out and seeing other birds all the time. They breed for high percentages of good rollers. They are not breeding 100 plus birds a year to get just on or two that spins. Plus the fact is roll and spin are just two words that describes their birds action. You say spin i say roll does it mean a difference not in my book. Some have seen greatness in the roll and others have not. Even some have thought that they have seen it and have not. Plus i do believe 100% that the guys that are breeding for the true "spin" would fly in comp if they could produce enough good ones. I live in Northern Calif. Who lives up here that breeds for individual performance that I could go see and see the goods??? Please let me know, Kevin
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roller
45 posts
May 18, 2006
6:49 PM
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Kevin, Everyone who loves rollers is in their backyard training their birds if they have it, justt some bad traing, average traing, and good trainings. That doesn't mean that comp birds or kits are better birds, in your opinion is okay, But what you said has partial validity. There are good rollers else where too, huh?
hardball
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knaylor
198 posts
May 18, 2006
6:52 PM
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Roller, I never said that there wasnt. Hell I have seen plenty of good ones. I have seen the better ones at guys that compete, and I dont think that they are headed in a wrong direction. Kevin
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roller
49 posts
May 18, 2006
6:57 PM
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Great,
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3757
36 posts
May 19, 2006
4:16 AM
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Kevin – When you stated, “you three were talking about how the guys in comp do not breed for the true BR,” Remember the note in the original question? “Note: This question has nothing to do with kit competition or the World cup but it has to do with what individuals focus on when breeding and flying their birds. I would like to know what others have observed.“ When did I state that kit competition men do not breed for the true BR? We need to separate the real issue from the spurious.
Dr. LD
Last Edited by 3757 on May 19, 2006 6:18 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
38 posts
May 19, 2006
7:07 AM
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J-STAR, Thank You!!!!!!!, for the back up........................NSIDERS,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, apologies accepted please accept mine(hand shake tooken).I was looking for your phone number yesterday on the NBRC directory ,to iron out the wrinkles on a personal and positive way, never the less it got ironed out anyway(a good thing and i'm glad),but i think your number on the directory is wrong, some law office..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, KNAYLOR, i can say this in truth and most will agree that it is you guys comp. kit flyers that keep this sport ALIVE!!, in a big part. I love to fly kits and wont stop till i'm 6' under, if GOD permits.........Later On..........R-LUNA
Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 19, 2006 7:07 AM
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