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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Roller Component Chart
Roller Component Chart
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
568 posts
Jun 07, 2006
3:18 PM
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For a while now I have wanted to create a roller component chart to better answer those many questions and create a better understanding of what is really involved with the roller in regards to performance. There are numerous, possibly countless components which integrate into a network which arrives at the roller performance. Often we tend to get into expressions of experience which might be out of reach of the beginner's ability to comprehend. I made this chart up centering around the most important component, the roll stimulus. Without it, the other components are meaningless in terms of roller performance. That said, each component becomes important and works both independently as well as in combination with one that resides next to it. I am hoping this will give others a better understanding of truly how the roller's performance works. I am posting the grid chart here for us to discuss and possibly allow me to expand it further.
Brian
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
630 posts
Jun 07, 2006
3:43 PM
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Hey Brian, I love stuff like this. Thanks for posting it!
Is there any wieght given to the traits or the boxes as to thier proximity to the center of the chart? Are there any correlations between the traits/characteristics and thier proximity to each other?
In my publication "How To Breed Better Rollers" I talk about what I call the 5 Primary Traits and list them in order of importance to my breeding program:
1: Roll
2: Velocity
3: Depth
4: Control
5: Type
Where could we fit each one of these in the chart? Again, is there any correlation between boxes? If not, we should discuss the wieght we give to each trait (box)and its location in the chart?
Thanks again for offering this and the bit of work that went into it.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
569 posts
Jun 07, 2006
4:00 PM
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Glad you like it Tony and equally glad you have input.
Yes, my idea was to align as best I could the components as they relate to one another. But they can also be moved to another position and would be equal, or near equal as significant of a connection to the box which touches it. This is only a beginning and I plan to expand it further.
Of the five elements you listed:
1: Roll
2: Velocity
3: Depth
4: Control
5: Type
I believe item #1(roll) is the center piece. As I noted, without it, the other elements are meaningless. I assume you mean the roll stimulus. Quality of roll would be another thing altogether.
Velocity and Depth would and should appear (as I see it) to the lower left as an extension of Genetic Pre-Disposition as well as somehow being tangible with numerous other components not listed in lower left (Strength and Nutrition being two I can think of off the top of head)
I don't feel Type has a place in terms of Performance. I don't find that Type corresponds with any of the components other than Genetic Pre-Disposition. Type is a physical structure rather than a cause/effect component, at least that is the way I see it and obviously open for discussion.
Keep in mind in case I didn't convey my intention, my goal is to display the vast number of nuances that do occur within the performance of a roller and what makes it do what it does both good and bad. I feel it is extremely important for others who are new to the hobby to understand it isn't just about the roll, but about a vast number of integral pieces that bind together to create the optimum set of cirumstances.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jun 07, 2006 4:05 PM
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3757
46 posts
Jun 07, 2006
8:09 PM
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Brian - This is excellent!
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 6:00 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
570 posts
Jun 07, 2006
8:47 PM
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Thanks LD. Any input?
I added the depth and velocity after Tony's suggestions as well as a few others.
Brian.
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birdman
182 posts
Jun 07, 2006
8:58 PM
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Brian, I'm curious as to your positioning of the Genetic Pre Disposition component in the chart as it seems that Genetic Pre-Disposition for the most part could also fit in the same spot as Roll Stimulus. Wouldn't the Genetic Pre-Disposition be directly responsible for the birds ability to roll or react to stimulus?
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
571 posts
Jun 07, 2006
9:04 PM
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It very well could Russ. My intent with the GPD was to show relationship to the latter roll style, depth and velocity. Keep in mind that most of these can move around on the chart and largely where they are placed, will have signifance with what box is it next to in any direction. I'll have to think that one over on the GPD. Your point definitely has merit we should ponder, if not at least discuss.
Brian.
PS--You have 1253 blue check DH hen I gave you right? I was looking up some bands of a couple of getter-done birds today and she was the mother. I couldn't find her then I realized I gave her to you...lol
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J_Star
464 posts
Jun 08, 2006
5:51 AM
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Brian,
Excellent chart. Allot of thought went into this and greatly appreciated. But you forgot one thing...Where does color fit into this(LOL).....Sorry..couldn't help myself.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
631 posts
Jun 08, 2006
5:52 AM
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Now, now Jay....LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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birdman
183 posts
Jun 08, 2006
6:46 AM
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Brian, seeing the components in chart form is a visual reminder of how complicated these little birds really are. Nice job!
Sorry to say, but the hen quit laying early in the season after only 6 youngsters. No apparent symptoms of any sickness, just dried up. Out of her 6 young, 5 were killed by predators before they were 3 months old and the lone survivor broke his neck last month while coming in to eat. For some reason he rolled from the top of the kit box while flying to the landing board and hit a 4' spin into the grass and it was lights out. I couldn't believe what I saw because he was a good stable bird with no problems until that incident.
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J_Star
465 posts
Jun 08, 2006
6:55 AM
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LD, temperament is part of or a component of character. Don't you think? But what about strong homeability -- is it a component of Strength? I think that Fly patern is a component of fly time and height... Just thinking out loud.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jun 08, 2006 7:01 AM
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Alohazona
157 posts
Jun 08, 2006
9:26 AM
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Guys,
Your getting alittle DEEP for me.There are SO many varibles under those headings,how can you draw any solid conclusions??It will never be so that one bird will ever possess all of those componenents.So what is the point??All the headings are all valid components.Is the intenion to to find better matings?,then I think breeding off a pedigree is just as valid as any chart,even though its all ones perception.Not trying to be Dr.Doom here.
Now excuse me while I post on "how to scare rollers off your roof"LOL....Aloha,Todd
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AIREDALE
11 posts
Jun 08, 2006
11:16 AM
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Brian,
This is an excellent post. I bet everyone is looking and thinking,I know I am. It shows how many different variables come into play with the roller.I think it would be very difficult to put a numerical value on these factors.I am thinking of a spreadsheet type matrix, that has dots in the box for factors affecting flight time, kitting, depth ect. Like the sheets that have the benefits across the top and model type along the left margin.Thanks again for a thought provoking idea.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
633 posts
Jun 08, 2006
11:16 AM
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Hey Todd, This chart IS deep. LOL
I like it as I believe that by brainstorming, identifying and prioritizing and finally documenting the factors that make up the Ideal Birmingham Roller, a "benchmark" to a standard is created.
This benchmark can be used to measure our own knowledge, experience and layout the groundwork for setting new goals in our breeding programs that take us closer to that ideal.
Is there any of us who would not profit from a visual aid such as this? Tools like these provide much needed perspective for all of us.
I know you were not putting it down, but just wanted to respond to your post.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
ATTENTION: You Can Help Support Roller-Pigeon.Com With Your Purchase Of Pigeon Supplies
Buy Roller Pigeon Products On This Site: Reading Materials, Shipping Boxes, Leg Bands, Egg Candler, Nest Bowls, Kit Flags, Catch Nets, Roller Pigeons, Vitamins/Electrolytes and Medications; More Coming!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
572 posts
Jun 08, 2006
1:07 PM
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Wow, good to see this is stirring some discussion and thoughts.
LD that would be a good idea, but boy that would take some serious time and work. A would fear that in a certain way some of the information might be subjective. It would definitely be interesting to create an interactive program which could correspond with different features.
Russ, that is a bummer on that hen. Let me know if you need a replacement. She has a couple of daughters in the old bird kit that you could use. Just let me know.
Jay, I would believe Temperment to be a component of Character as well as Genetic. The bird's character obviously would play hand-in-hand with its temperment, with the observed temperment being the result of the bird's overall character. Temperment can be environmental too such as a bird which is handled often being more tame than one that is caught with a net when it is not wanting to be caught. I think there are events that can alter a bird's temperment, but then genetically how much it effects or changes the bird can be relative to it's character too I suppose.
Todd, don't give up so easily...lol. It is supposed to be "intense" because in a way that is precisely my point with this chart, to display (some) of the many virtues which combine to create the balance that is required for optimum results. If it were easy we'd all be flying great rollers..lol. As you know, that is far from the case and I think it important to understand, even to a very limited degree, some of the things that can contribute to both good and bad performance. Does that makes sense?
Example: Joe Flyer says his birds are not kitting. Why? Maybe by looking at the chart they can easily associate the problem could be character based, stress related or even a genetic problem.
Or maybe Joe Flyer is concerned about the lack of frequency in his birds. The closest relatives to where I placed "frequency" would reveal that strength, control, stage of maturity and even intelligence and resolve to a limited degree could be the problem.
Airdale, that is a good idea. I like it and it does makes some sense, probably even better than this chart really. If you have some time, maybe try your idea using these components and any others you can think of to assemble a schedule along the lines of what you were thinking. Maybe we can find a balance between the two. Comments like these are exactly what I was looking for and I know that down the road, whatever comes it will be helpful to a novice, or even the veteran too.
All--My idea is to create something that would give a reasonable answer or provide a direction of analysis for someone who questions a bird(s). The ideal performance should be a bird which possesses the proper degree of each of the components along with a balance of the management components. Look at is as a tool, that is how I am looking at it. And when and if we come to a concensus on the components, I myself will print this out and hang it in my kit box loft to remind myself daily of the importance of each of these components.
Brian.
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nicksiders
623 posts
Jun 08, 2006
5:41 PM
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I like the chart a lot. It allows you to think categorically and each breeder can place a value coefficient in each section and rate his bird(s) accordingly.
Sometimes the most profound ideas is the simplist idea. It is all about organizing your thought processes in an understandable languege. It is funny how much of who we are can be defined by the definitions that we use to describe things; place value; and make decisions from.
How about them Cardinals!? And the shotgun works for me!(LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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glenn
19 posts
Jun 08, 2006
5:45 PM
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Hello:
You can have a Cock with 10 tons of character and his temperment will be bad. You can have the same thing in hens except the character isssue won't be the same. The one thing you would look for is Balance in the birds. Just my thoughts...Glenn
Last Edited by glenn on Jun 08, 2006 5:46 PM
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Ballrollers
380 posts
Jun 08, 2006
8:42 PM
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Brian, I know that you said type is encompassed under genetic predisposition. How about "Balance"? "Type" is a problem, because we have great rollers that look like crap with regard to ideal type, yet are balanced for correct performance. It seems like an essential ingredient in your chart. YITS, Cliff.
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Santandercol
99 posts
Jun 08, 2006
9:00 PM
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Brian,
It's amazing,,,,really,how deeply you are into this hobby of flying and breeding rollers.Good chart,if it means something to you.I don't mean to be nasty at all,but for a simple guy like myself,its diffficult to understand what you're getting at.
"Always pay attention to the birds,you might learn something"
Monty Neibel
Salud a las palomas,
Kel
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
574 posts
Jun 08, 2006
9:32 PM
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Cliff, I think you kind of answered your own question.
"Type" is a problem, because we have great rollers that look like crap with regard to ideal type, yet are balanced for correct performance."
This is why I am a firm non-believer in the context of there being a "perfect or ideal" type. To me, and some others I know have the same conclusions, is that the best rollers in the air weren't anything special to look at phenotypically. The best rollers for type that I have seen were stone cold stiffs in the air. That said, some hard working kit birds which are excellent spinners, but look like just ordinary old rollers, will change and fill out once they are not flown or stocked, most of the time looking much, much better and more "typy".
I wouldn't add Type to this chart because it is a personal preference, something that I personally feel has no bearing one whether or not a bird will be or can become an good roller, or managed into becoming a good competition roller. But of course, if others share your sentiments we could add it if more feel it is important to them flying better rollers.
Kel, thanks and I most surely don't take it that way at all. I understand how some folks might not be able to understand past the middle box. Let's put it like this and maybe it will help you. Step back for a moment and just look at all of the components of the chart. Give no value to any one above the other. Just each one being a component. The intention is to provide a simple means of showing how there are many different things which combine together to create what we expect to see in the air in a good kit. As you remove components, the overall performance and managability begins to deteriorate. These are things we normally don't see when messing around with our birds or watching them fly. But each has a purpose, some slight, some profoundly. When we see a brick house, we see the house, the final product. But when we look closer, we see there are individual components which bind together, layer after layer to create the final product. If some of the components are missing, the final product starts to become inferior.
One thing I see a lot is that many people believe rollers automatically do what they do. Then when something doesn't seem right, or going the way they thought it would, they are confused. I was hoping this would shed just a trickle of light to the various things that have to come together for optimum results per that bird's capability.
If you were to have the priviledge to delve into the inner workings and mindset of some of the most successful roller flyers in competition history, I think you would find that most if not all dissect every nuance of their birds to bring out the most in them and understand them more completely. These are many of the facets which make up that understanding and management.
I hope I haven't confused you more....lol. But please feel free to comment more on it.
Brian.
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Santandercol
100 posts
Jun 08, 2006
10:33 PM
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Brian,
O.K.,now you've explained to me more in laymans terms, I'm understanding.There are many factors to put together to have your birds do what you hope they'll do.And that is probably a good idea to put this chart in our lofts or somewhere to remind us of all the neccessary components to make up good rollers.Seems a bird can become spoiled quite easily,but to produce champion flyers is a real art,no doubt. ----------
Kelly
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