fhtfire
493 posts
Jun 23, 2006
11:59 PM
|
What truly is hybrid vigor and why do people think that you can't use the hybrid vigor to start your own family. A true hybrid is the breeding of two purebred sub-species within a species. For example....a lion to a tiger...both are purebreds..the offspring is a hybrid. Both the lion and the tiger have strength, power and they both do the same thing..hunt and kill. Now for example...which these two have been crossed and the offspring are HUGE...they weigh almost double that of a tiger or a lion..they are stronger and more powerful but do not look like either parent..so that is a hybrid...Now you breed the two hybrids together and you get a huge animal with the stripes like a tiger and that is what you are looking for..a super tiger.know you have what you would call Hybrid vigor..Heterosis(hybrid vigor) is increased strength of different distinct characteristics in hybrids; the possibility to obtain a "better" individual by combining the virtues of its parents. So...you combined two to make a hybrid that is better then its parents. The problem that science has and why it is so debated..is what truly is hybrid vigor..some would say..that it has hybrid vigor because it is bigger and stronger and faster....but another individual...may think that it is hybrid depression...why...because some of the offspring are to big and lost its stripes to blend into the jungles..like a tiger..so even though it is stronger and faster and bigger...now the prey can see him because of this...but it will outperform the parents. Confusing..tell me about it..LOL!!
Is crossing two different families of rollers producing a hybrid...or is it simply breeding to purebreds together from a different line...is that a hybrid? Or is breeding a parlor roller to a brimingham roller a hybrid...it is not a mongrel...a mongrel is of mixed blood with ancestory unknown...if you breed the two rollers together and it produces a roller with all the characteristics of a Birmingham..but is super active and fast as lightning..better then the parents in every way...is that true hybrid vigor. Are the birmingham rollers genes so far off with different families that the offspring are considered hybrids.
I take dairy goats...something I know quite a bit about..I raised La Mancha dairy goats..(no ear lobes). They produce about 3 quarts of milk a day. Lets say I have a Doe that is perfect in every way..except her teats are a little small..so I take a buck from another family of La Manchas that is know to produce larger teats in its offspring..Except the Buck is known to also pass on poor fore udder attachment every now and then...I breed the two and the offspring are perfect in every way..nice teats and fore udder attachment and is a better looking goat then both parents...fault free!! is that hybrid vigor....I would say no..that is just two purebreds mated together...genes are still pretty tight...because the earlobes are still not there..LOL...but if I take a pure bred La Mancha and breed it to a Pure bred Saanen goat...Saanens produce more milk about a gallon and a half a day..except they have ears....now my goal is to up milk production and keep the ears without ear lobes..it it comes out with half earlobes..then it is a hybrid....if it comes out with no earlobes and looks in every way like a La Mancha and produces 1.5 gallons a day..then that is hybrid vigor. If the offspring of the obove mentioned perfect goat produces crap then I am in the relm of hybrid depression....
Does that hold true with pigeons...if I breed two different families then the offspring that perform better then the parents is hybrid vigor...or is it just a purebred that has the goods. I mean...when the two or three birds were crossed to make the Birmingham roller...those first f-1's that had the goods were hybrids....then when you bred the best to best of the hybrids and produced just what you wanted to set a breed..then isn't that hybrid vigor...and then you continue to breed the hybrid vigor birds together and so on...and then you have a set breed...or purebreds. Or is there different types of hybrid vigor. The birminham roller itself is a purebred....no longer a hybrid. My lab comes from two different bloodlines of purebred labs...and she is an excellent hunting dog..is that hybrid vigor...some say she is better then her parents...or is she just a damn good purebred lab. But if I bred a lab to a greyhoung ...wouldn't that offspring be an F-1 hybrid...then I breed two hybrids together and they produce a dog that looks exactly like a lab that can run like the wind blows is that hybrid vigor...it looks like the parents but will outperform them in any way.
I have heard of crossing a quarter horse to a theroughbred and you can get a superhorse..is that hybrid vigor...It is all confusing to me. I have been told so many different things..by different people..and the more I research the worse it gets....I thought that you get the vigor from breeding different populations in the same species from breeding they hybrids together..with the offspring of the hybrids out performing purebred parents.
I myself have never really believed in hybrid vigor...in the way we use it..I get the same amount of good birds from Pure Campbell as I do with a Mort Emami Cross and then breeding the offspring of the two mentioned above and I have pairs that produce just about the same offspring in performance...Where is my highbred vigor? What is a different and DISTINCT characteristic when they use that phrase to describe producing a hybrid...do the mean like distinct and different like compairing the distict and different characteristic of a fantail with its head back and big ass tail and a roller being small and athletic..those are distinct differences..or is it just one birds rolls deep and one does not..is that a distinct and different charactersistic........anyway...I was just thinking again..LOL Little help would be good on this subject.
Again...I am not writing this to say one person is wrong or whatever..I just want to get feedback and review it and learn a thing or two
Most of the stuff I read talks more about hybrid depression and inbred depression..because the genes are to close and you start heading downhill fast.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jun 24, 2006 12:05 AM
|
GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
83 posts
Jun 24, 2006
5:43 AM
|
Paul,sorry i bring no insight to the table but very interesting views......... R-Luna
|
birdman
187 posts
Jun 24, 2006
8:17 AM
|
Paul, you make a good point. Crossing Birmingham roller families cannot produce hybrid vigor in the true sense of the word but it can increase vigor due to expanding the gene pool. I keep a separate cousin line of rollers for this purpose.
Good post.
Russ
|
fhtfire
494 posts
Jun 24, 2006
11:37 AM
|
Exactly...you are just widening the gene pool...when you bring in a different family...to pull your inbred family out of inbreeding depression. that is called "outbreeding enhancement". The more I study and from past experiences in livestock..a simple outcross from the same type(breed) is not a hybrid...therfore it can't produce hybrid vigor. But it does open up the gene pool and adds a little spice...it is kind of funny...why do they call a car a hybrid...because it is the mating of two distict systems...a electric motor and combustion engine. Both can make the car go..one faster and one slower...but they are different and distinct in character..lOL!!
Inbreeding is a very touchy thing to do..it can be good for awhile until you reach the bottleneck. Nature always tries to put a stop to inbreeding to keep the species going..for example... Many pack or herd animals (such as lions, horses and dogs) inadvertently practice a social method to reduce inbreeding: young males are expelled from the group before they reach sexual maturity and might become competition for the alpha male, the only one to have sexual rights within his group.
The cheetah is a highly inbred species, leading to a population bottleneck in the population. Inbreeding is also deliberately induced in laboratory mice in order to guarantee a consistent and uniform animal model. Human genetic diversity is also limited, indicating a population bottleneck perhaps some 70,000 years ago.
Purebred animals are often inbred; some critics argue the practice is unhealthy.
F1 hybrids are the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types, the offspring of which produce a new, uniform variety with specific and/or desirable characteristics from either or both parents.
Mules are F1 hybrids between horse and donkey.
So to me a true F-1 or F-1 hybrid is a cross between a homer and a roller. If the F-1 is a superstar..in the eyes of the breeder or fancier..and does what the breeder is looking for with the cross..and does it better then the parents..then that is hybrid vigor.
Talking to gene propeller heads at the university...genetics is still a very heated debate and is based on a lot of theorys and hopothesises.
Technically as a laymans term you could call a roller between two inbred families that produce a superstar highbird vigor..or just vigor.lOL!! I hope Brian and J-star read this...I would love to hear what they have to say...or what there take is on the subject.
rock and ROLL
paul
|
nicksiders
654 posts
Jun 24, 2006
12:04 PM
|
How long does the effects of the so-called "hybred vigor" last? I feel you are better off in the long term not to widen your gene pool, but to keep it narrow and through selective breeding within that narrow pool develope all the vigor you need and want. That way the vigor is present year after year after year instead of a one year flash and then starting over again with yet another group of new genes dumped in an already uncontrollable pool. JUST MY OPINION AND IT MAY NOT CONTAIN ANY FACT OR TRUTH. KEEP IN MIND I ONLY BELIEVE HALF OF WHAT I SAY AND LIKE ANY OTHER LIBERAL I HAVE A RIGHT TO FLIP FLOP ON WHAT I BELIEVE(LOL).
Paul - this is a good post and I hope everyone gets involved in it sharing thier knowledge..........pretty damn good for an ol' dumb model and fireman(LOL).What are you doing; trying to get a free PHD wondering the halls of UCD?(LOL)
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
599 posts
Jun 24, 2006
12:40 PM
|
Paul, a Hybrid and hybrid vigor are generally two different things based around similiar circumstances. When crossing sub species such as you noted or with say game fish which is quite popular, the results are genetic hybrids, many of which lack the ability to reproduce.
Hybrid vigor is the description of the overall increase in abilities both mental and physical. It's the "vigor" part one has to pay attention to, and not get side tracked with the hybrid part of it.
Hybrid vigor definitely is achievable in rollers, especially when crossing two unrelated families. I've done it many times and seen the results and by and large, the F1 offspring exhibit greater abilities than either parent. In fact in my A team about half of the old birds still in there are F1 family hybrids. They are the strongest ones, the ones that have the abilities to evade predators, return from overflies and show a general good balance of intelligence. Many of these were bred from which eventually gave me more understanding as to why F1 family hybrids overall tend to not reproduce their likeness.
Vigor comes in varying degrees. It depends on the two sources and how close or far apart they are in their family make up as well as the cohesiveness of the blend. I've made some crosses that were flat out garbage and by and large, there was something about each parent that I didn't like, but wanted to see what would happen.
Some crossings click, some don't. The ones that do you will see the vigor in them.
Brian.
|
fhtfire
496 posts
Jun 24, 2006
2:04 PM
|
Brian,
Excellent post dude! I think you nailed it on the head with the vigor part and maybe not pay attention to the hybrid part. I totally agree that you get "vigor" Vigor is a very powerful word...and Hybrid vigor is even more powerful...the word itself represents the upper class...top notch..power and prestige...the best of the best. But I think that the hybrid part is what is getting in the way. Vigor is what we are after...I think we are using hybrid vigor and throwing the word around because it sounds good..LOL J/K One of my questions is this..crossing two distinct strands...does it really produce "vigor" or is just a good mating...and we are guessing that it is hybrid vigor...just like you stated..you can get good matings crossing strains and bad matings...just like when you put together any pair. I really do not think that it is totally true that the "F-1" from a crossing of families will not produce good birds...I have had both happen F-1 producing good birds and garbage...hell...most families are started by crossing two or more families together and keep breeding best to best with those families or inbreeding the offsring...is it really truly hyrbrid vigor or vigor that is happening...or is it a little luck and we all just call it that...or is it just plain old outbreeding enhancement...just adding a little spice to the mild salsa! It just seems that it is different from loft to loft and pair to pair...I agree totally with Nick about keeping it tight...to make your own family...you will spin your wheels if you keep getting birds from every which way...and naturally when you have a breeding project...you start circling the wagons around certain birds anyway..just like Scott says..the cream always rises to the top...I have bred a lot of champion livestock and been involved with other breeders of Champion livestock..best to best...inbreeding...linebreeding and guess what...at the end of the line...they all end up at the same place...they honed in on what they liked and bred for it.....all had simular results..except in the long term..the inbreeders..started having issues..health wise..but back to the vigor...Brian..what you said made total sense in the fact that we may be just using words the wrong way..if I understood you right...Nick....It is kind of nice wondering the halls of Uneverstiy of California at Davis....being a firefighter helps too...because the professors kind of want to let you know how it is..LOL!! They do sometimes get a little out there..I have to reel them back in so that I can understand what they are saying. Shoot I had two professors debating on a subject...when i left they were still in a heated debate...I think it was on color breeding...LOL..just kidding. Keep it coming...I think this helps new guys understand that some stuff we talk about is just "slang" and some stuff is scientifically proven or proven through experience. But the main thing I see Brian is that if crossing two families produced vigor..you would have a high percentage of good birds by crossing two families...in my experience and talking with other fanciers..it appears that you get the same amount of junk and good birds within a family as well as crossing. If hybrid vigor was true in crossing two well inbred families...wouldn't most of the pairs have offspring that had the hybrid vigor...it seems in most cases that is not true..you can have one crossed pair..produce superstars and three crossed pairs produce shit and two more produce some good birds...if the crossing was true wouldn't the "hybrid vigor" be present with every breeding.....I tell you what..you breed a horse to a donkey..99.9% of the time you will get a mule..same with a lion and tiger..99.9% of the time you will get a 1,000lb cat that is tan with a half mane and light striping. But that is true hybrid...two subspecies...but if you bred two roller strains..you could get anything...make sense...
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Velo99
507 posts
Jun 24, 2006
2:12 PM
|
Paul,
I liken a gene pool to a game of Tetris. As you breed birds and tighten the pool you get gaps in the string. After a while these gaps begin to affect the game.
You have to fill them in to continue to play. This is where the vigor(good traits) would hopefully fill the gaps and allow you to continue the game.
Use the chart that was posted a while back as your Tetris block and fill in the gaps y voila! you have the "perfect" bird.
yits
v99
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t perform.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
|
fhtfire
498 posts
Jun 24, 2006
2:20 PM
|
Kenny..you make it sound sooooo easy...LOL!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Velo99
509 posts
Jun 24, 2006
2:33 PM
|
Paul,
I think too many times we expect too much out of the birds we breed.I think if we follow our own rules and adjust out practices from time to time we might have THE birds right under our noses.
40% bird 60% management.
mho
v99
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t perform.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
602 posts
Jun 24, 2006
3:49 PM
|
Paul, here is a clinical explanation/definition of hybrid vigor sourced from a University report on heterosis:
"Heterosis is increased strength of different characteristics in hybrids; the possibility to obtain a "better" individual by combining the virtues of its parents.
A mixed-breed dogThis is commonly known as hybrid vigor or outbreeding enhancement. It is often the opposite process of inbreeding depression, which increases homozygosity. Heterosis is an example of heterozygous advantage. The term often causes controversy, particularly in terms of domestic animals, because it is sometimes believed that all crossbred plants or animals are better than their parents; this is untrue. Rather, when a hybrid is seen to be superior to its parents, this is known as hybrid vigor. It may also happen that a hybrid inherits such different traits from their parents that make them unfit for survival. This is known as outbreeding depression, typical examples of which are crosses between wild and hatchery fish that have incompatible adaptations."
Paul, vigor is a combination of traits that can only be measured based on the parents values. The hybrid vigor term does get thrown around often arbitrarily in roller discussions and to some people it might be perceived as a means for instant gratification. That is by all means not true. One cannot just throw two ordinary old rollers together and "bam" get superior offspring from them. Each parent consists of genetic components which some will be dominant and some recessive. In rollers we tend to find that we need a balance of both since what we are breeding for isn't truly an example of "breeding champion specimens"
Much of what makes roller exhibiting "champion" qualities will vary from bird to bird and chances are pretty good the highly praised pigeon is from a mating which was not closely related, thus creating the "heterosis" of hybrid vigor.
There are a multitude of ways and measures that pertain to what we perceive is vigor. If the stock is weak in fly strength, diluting the homozygosity for this trait tends to render less of it, which can also be seen as "strengthening" the offspring. Using that example if a person conducted such an experience and concluded the offspring from this outcrossing of the line did in fact exhibit stronger flying abilities, the person could conclude they were witnessing "vigor".
An extreme example would be if a person took two roll downs with some distance between their relationship and paired them together, many of the offspring from this mating would exhibit a weakened degree of the negative recessives that made the parents roll downs. Thus some of offspring are not roll downs and perform fine. They are by virtue of spliting the homozygosity of the negative traits, making the offspring stronger and more able to control the roll.
If a person started with two stone cold stiffs that were unrelated, two things will happen. They will produce more stiffs because by nature, the fewer negative recessives involved, the stronger the bird, thus Stiff in roller terms. There is also a chance that if this pair possessed the heterozygous recessive for weaker character and control, 25 percent of the offspring will show less control or strength by virtue of being homozygous for the recessive gene the parents were not fully expressing.
I know this might sound deep, but we all find it easy to just "assume" the outcome of different breeding methods. The rollers we try to breed are extremely complex. The challenges a savy breeder faces are quite different than those of mainstream breeders of other examples such as animals or plants.
Brian.
|
fhtfire
499 posts
Jun 24, 2006
5:01 PM
|
Brian,
Makes sense to me. There are a lot of assumptions in breeding..like assuming there is hybrid vigor...It just seems to me that a lot of fanciers use the words in a way that everytime you cross a family you will get hybrid vigor..or if something pops up between two crosses..that breed 15young and they all suck and one bird stands out..a fancier will say that it is hybrid vigor. That is what I think is not true...I feel that you need a higher % of good birds to call it vigor or hybrid vigor...because you can get the same % of good birds in an established family. IT just seems through the info on hybrid vigor or producing hybrids....that when you put two purebreds of a subspecies together and no matter how many times you breed that pair you get the same result..or hybrid...like a horse to a donkey..no matter how many times you breed them..you will get a mule..LOL...That is why I am having a hard time calling a crossing between two families hybrids..because you can breed a pair 20 times with 20 different results from that same pair...but if you put a King on a fantail you will get the same looking bird everytime..did it when I was a kid..that in my head is a true hybrid..two subspecies mating. Does that make sense..it is hard putting my thoughts on paper..or screen >LOL! I am just under the impression that how can you call one good bird out of 10 hybrid vigor...should it be like 9 out of 10 or high percentages of good birds...Are two families truly considered hybrids or able to produce hybrids..scientifically speaking...I totally get what you are saying..just picking your brain a little bit more...I can see the vigor in the matings..the other thing is..when you see someones kit of birds fly and you see a couple birds tearing it up...and the fancier says that they are two family crosses..you think..it must be the vigor..but you do not know how many brothers and sisters were culled to get those two birds...get what I am saying...if it is two birds out of 10 would you call it vigor or luck...your input is totally clearing up the picture..LOL!! Hope you understand what I am trying to get across...
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
604 posts
Jun 24, 2006
5:35 PM
|
Paul, when you stop thinking about hybridization and start thinking about vigor, it will all make much more sense..lol.
It is about the exchange and amplification of components involved, not about species and families when we look to dissect how vigor is displayed in our rollers.
Brian.
|
fhtfire
501 posts
Jun 24, 2006
6:48 PM
|
Brian,
LOL...That is what my whole post was about...people using the word "hybrid vigor" instead of vigor...Ok..for now on I am calling it vigor...LOL....I totally understand how it all works...I was just wondering why they use the word hybrid..when it is not...I totally agree with you in the Vigor part of it..Ok..I am done..LOL!! it is genetic crossing vigor! LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Major-ret
21 posts
Jun 24, 2006
6:48 PM
|
It seems to me that if the term 'hybrid' was not used it would make sense to me. My understanding of hybrid is like Paul mentioned - breeding from different species or varietes to get superior traits of the first generation when compared with either parent. Seems if one uses vigor breeding within the same species i.e. B Rollers that it would make it easier to understand. Like Kenny said - description of vigor is good traits. Nick I enjoy your comments especially the flip flop - can that also work for us republicans..lol!!!! Steve
|
nicksiders
655 posts
Jun 24, 2006
9:31 PM
|
Major - conservatives as well as liberals are welcome to use the flip-flop approach to decision making, but it is like pool you have to call it before you shoot(LOL)
----------
Snicker Rollers
|