Double D
247 posts
Jul 02, 2006
9:48 AM
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What do we know about the homing instinct in rollers other than it isn't very good? Why isn't it good? Is it a strength and therefore conflicts with the "roll" so it's been bred out of the rollers? Have rollers never had the homing instinct very strong?
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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Sourland
71 posts
Jul 02, 2006
10:48 AM
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Double D I'm new at this, but I think homing instinct varies from family to family. I have a friend who just likes to have some birds to fly. Occasionally I give him birds that are on the stiff or infrequent side. Just last week a bluebar hen that I had given him returned home. It was the first time he flew this last group of birds after settling them. She returned 12 days after he "lost" her-flying approximately 120 miles. I know nothing about her family. I raised her from some birds I got as part of the deal when I purchased a loft two years ago. Most of my birds came from a guy who purchased 10 birds from Frank Lavin and crossed them into a family that he already had. If I am not careful with the feed they tend to overfly (they are strong buggers.) I have never lost an entire kit to overfly. Some or most have always returned-sometimes as much as 3 or 4 days later. I think sometimes that rather than a lack of homing instinct these birds get blown so far away that they just don't have enough strength to get home. I know that after 3 or 4 days away birds come home in rough shape. Hen that returned from 120 miles 12 days after being "lost" was in great shape. Go figure-if only she could talk, I'm sure she would have quuite a story to tell.
Geo.
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fhtfire
509 posts
Jul 02, 2006
11:56 AM
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Double D.
The homing instinct in all pigeons verys from bird to bird. Even Racing homer guys lose birds the first time out. Even some of the best homers have to be trained to home...like taking them out...20 miles then 50....then 100 and so on. A study was done in England and they found that it is a combination of things that help pigeons find there way home...they memorize land marks, the position of the sun to find direction, the horizon, they are smart, they see in ultra-violet, they have excellent hearing.They hear things in bass tones very well..like an elephant..bass tones travel very far...that is why you see pigeons take off for no reason...they heard something that we do not.. The study showed that the combination of everything makes them find home...from memorizing mountain ranges, to a Mcdonalds sign, following roads, hearing super low tones...could help them find there way back if certain tones are picked up that the bird knows, and of course the Ultr-violet vision..seeing things during flight that we do not..like heat waves, and light patterns. One study showed that pigeons get lazy...that birds that had GPS on them would be released from the same spot and in time would not take the quickest route...but would follow roads to get home..so they did not have to think...they would even follow the cars in the round abouts. I know that this is off the subject...but the real homing instinct has never been figured out..but this latest study..with the hypothesis that they use all there senses..is real good....I really do not think that rollers lack homing instinct...it is just that we do not train them for homing...Racing homers are even trained to home. Like the last post stated...our rollers are not built for long distances either...we feed them light so that they roll...well they lose strength and are blown off by the wind or pressure and usually do not have the strength to make it back....homers are built up and are strong and sleek..made for speed...they are pure power and can fight the wind and air currents. I had a roller come back from a 40mile flight..gave a hen away to a guy and she came back.
When I was a kid I had many different flying breed and barn pigeons...I lived in a small town surrounded by farmland and would travel out of town and let my birds go...everytime going out further and further...guess what..I only lost a couple of birds and I went out as far as 30 miles. Some would come back right away and some days later.
I think when we lose birds they are blown off and to weak to make it back due to the fact we keep them light and hungry...losing young birds...well they are young and dumb. I do believe that some families are naturally better at homing then other families...just like some families have more speed in the roll or better quality then others.
With rollers..you can't have your cake and eat it too...when you have them in condition to roll...they get blown off easier or get caught in updrafts and do not have the strength and energy to get down...they are totally dependent on us. We roller guys seem to deal with young birds alot and think they get lost more then other breeds..it is just the fact that they are mostly young and young birds usually do what the other birds do and if they are by themselves..well they freak out! Due to hawk attacks...culling...and stocking...we rarely have a kit full of super old birds that are more "seasoned". So we tend to think that rollers lack homing ability.,,,plus they are light on the wing.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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STARFIRE
47 posts
Jul 02, 2006
2:31 PM
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-Hi, Sourland.
Rollers don't home from 120 miles.The bird you are talking about,was probably given,or sold to someone a lot closer than 120 miles.Lke maybe 15-20 miles.Even 20 miles is doubtful.Rollers have a hard time finding their way home from an overfly.If rollers came home from that far no one would lose a bird.Take the bird back to where you gave it to the friend,and let it go again .I guaranty you wont see that bird again.Unless it was a homer? LOL.Lets hear from anybody else that has gotten a roller back from a great distance.I won't go so far as to say it's impossible.Any thing is possible,but it's not likely.
Stan Arnold
STARFIRE
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brian430
19 posts
Jul 02, 2006
5:21 PM
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I agree with Stan, no birmingham roller is gonna return 120 miles,"in good health", i'm sure it's something else.
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Brian in Ludlow, MA
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Sourland
72 posts
Jul 02, 2006
5:21 PM
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Stan, all I know is that I gave her away and now she is back in my loft. She is quite definitely not a homer as a matter of fact, she is quite small. She only tumbles two or three flips that is why I gave her away. Like I said I know nothing about her background. Her parents came along with a loft I purchased several years ago. Her mother is an extremely nice bird but has produced nothing like herself. She arrived home in such good shape that I wondered if someone was playing games?
Geo.
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Opinionated Blowhard
52 posts
Jul 02, 2006
6:25 PM
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A few rollers can find there way home from over 100 miles. Few ever get the chance to try. Most of those that ever get the chance to try from over ten miles never make it because there not trained to use there homing instinct and they dont know how to forage for thereselves so they can stay strong enough to keep working there way home.
Most homers that have never been trained and are released from 100 miles away wont make it home 100 miles either. That doesn't mean they dont have homing instinct. It means they never learned how to use it. Homers have to be trained to use their instinct with many tosses from increasing distances between about 3 months of age and 8 months. If they dont get this training at this age you will lose 80% of them from there first toss over 70 miles when there over a year old.
Even rollers that have decent homing instinct will take a lot longer to fly home than homers because rollers are not built for fast straight flying. Kevin
Last Edited by Opinionated Blowhard on Jul 02, 2006 6:26 PM
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C.J.
373 posts
Jul 03, 2006
3:47 AM
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Very few rollers. i have never had a bird return. I keep lots of records on who has my birds and never not once has one came home. Rollers homing instinct sucks. if you were to load your rollers into your car and drive them into the nearest town i dare to say you would lose pretty much all of them. now if you did the same thing to homers the majority would be sitting on the loft roof when you arrived home.
sour why not contact the guy who bought the bird and see what happened.
C.J.
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Sourland
73 posts
Jul 03, 2006
8:34 AM
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C.J., I did talk to the guy that I gave her to. He said she disappeared on the first flight after he had settled her at his loft. 11 out of 12 birds returned to his loft and he assumed that this hen had been killed by a hawk. Approximately 12 days later she was back at my loft. Above and beyond the possibility of homing from that distance a harder thing to understand is that she was in fairly good condition.
Geo.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
675 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:26 AM
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Hey Darin, it is my belief that competition rollers are, generally speaking, meant to fly for short periods of time (competition being 20 minutes), the homing instinct seems to me to be well adapted to their primary purpose and then some.
If you mean by strong homing instinct to be able to find their way back home from long distances, I propose that it is a trait not needed and undesirable as the physical make up of the roller to fly long distances would have to change. Say…going from a shorter body and winged bird to one with a longer body and wing, thus changing the physical attributes needed in a quality roller.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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661roller
21 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:39 AM
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George,
Do you have personalized name bands? Maybe someoe tracked you down that way or through the club band and released it by your house?
J.W.
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Double D
251 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:04 PM
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Tony, what you're saying makes sense but when I let out my young birds a couple of days ago and one flys off and doesn't return and the next day I see it on the rooftop of a home about 60 yards away from my loft and it still can't find it's way home, I start to wonder if they have any homing instinct at all, LOL!
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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parlorfancier916
77 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:05 PM
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I've lost a roller 5 miles from my house, (was a little bit naughty last year) and had one return from about 30 miles away. it depends on what gene the roller gets that's all..
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fhtfire
512 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:14 PM
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D,
If it is a young bird and is 60 yards away...it may not be lost..but a retard..LOL!! What I mean by that is that it may not be the homing but more or less a lazy bird that just does not want to fly or return. I have had birds just take off and not return...is it homing ability...I would say no. Young birds..just not rollers get lost. They are like little kids...the just do not know better.
Tony is right about the characteristics of a roller..like my last post...we breed and feed to have the birds fly low, stay close and Roll hard...not home. I would bet that if you fed up your rollers and took them a mile, then 3...then four and so on and got them real strong on the wing..I really think that you would get them back...again..feeding them up and getting them real strong. Of course they will not return from huge distances...they are not made for that..body wise.
I have had birds come back from an overfly months later...hang out for awhile and take off again...That I feel is hormones..LOL...found a mate...came home for a litte grub and then back off to wear they feel comfortable. I really do not think it is the homing that sucks...as much as the way we feed and breed and the characteristics and body type of rollers...they are not made to fly long distances..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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thong
7 posts
Jul 03, 2006
10:47 PM
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guys, I had a roller hen that flew from Sacremento to yuba city. that's about 30 miles. I bred a son, actually it was inbred to this mom, the baby was the only one that made it back during an overfly---this I believe is a strong homing instinct passed from the mother to the son.
my two cent.
thong
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Alohazona
168 posts
Jul 04, 2006
9:37 AM
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Guys,
It can be done,without a doubt.One month ago I sold a gave away a group of rollers.I noticed a unfamiliar but familer bird trying to get back into my loft.He was weak missing body mass,but had an overwhelming desire to get back into the loft.The man I sold the birds to lives on the opposite side of the island about 65 miles,over 2 mountain ranges.This same bird made a 25 miler,so he did have some experience,the 25 miler he did overnight,the 65 miler took 3 days...Aloha,Todd
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Velo99
523 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:01 PM
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Guys
Here`s my take.
As Tony said, we train them to fly short periods of time. The homing instinct is there, just undeveloped as Kevin said. When we select them,we select for things other than homing instinct. It is feasible to say the bird still retains some degree of homing instinct because it is an ingrained part of what a pigeon is.
Sour`s bird is obviously an exception to the rule. Lets look at the scenario. The bird has been up for two weeks. So he is rested and healthy. I also believe he could have been located "upwind" of the general flow of the wind, usually northwest to southeast. Sour? With these to factors in hand with a moderately developed homing instinct it is possible for this bird to fly 120 miles. As long as he can find some water he should be fine for a couple of days.
mtc/jmho
v99
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If they don`t kit,they don`t perform.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
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nicksiders
681 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:25 PM
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Even the racing people start thier young ones flying around the loft area and teaching them to trap for awhile. Then they start thier flight training by moving them out in short increments for release. They too, lose a few in the early stages. I have even captured a few in on my kitboxes along with a couple of tipplers over the years. Our rollers may never have a racing birds level of the homing drive, but they probably would do quite well if we trained them in a similar fashon.
Just my opinion............and I don't have to justify it(LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
94 posts
Jul 04, 2006
2:28 PM
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VELLO-99, I'm with you on that thought. WE all have had some strange occurances , with our birds.
R-LUNA
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Sourland
74 posts
Jul 04, 2006
4:38 PM
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V99, bird was released in East central Pa. I live in West central N.J. Prevailing winds here at this time of year come from the NW;therefore, she had the wind at her back. I don't have any use for her so the next time I catch up to this guy I'll give her back. We'll see if she can repeat the trip. Mileage I gave was road miles. As the crow flies should be somewhat less. Wilkes Barre, Pa. to Flemington, N.J.
Geo.
Last Edited by Sourland on Jul 04, 2006 4:40 PM
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brian430
27 posts
Jul 05, 2006
7:34 PM
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well after reading all those stories I have to say I might be wrong, I guess it is possible...
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Brian in Ludlow, MA
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katyroller
37 posts
Jul 09, 2006
7:33 PM
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I had a Jaconette based family that seemed to be able to home better than others. My experience with this family was that they would routinely "route" or "range" like Homers instead of staying within sight. I had one kit that would start every fly with a couple of low circles overhead and then take off low 5 or more miles away for about 10 minutes before coming back into sight. They performed good but most of it was non-viewable to me so needless to say they didn't last long. It didn't matter if there wasn't any breeze at all and they weren't trained in high winds as young birds. I no longer wish my birds could home like Homers.
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J_Star
505 posts
Jul 11, 2006
8:57 AM
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Katyroller,
You must have had a bird or two that was leading the kit into flying away and far. I have a Jaconette family and they don't do that. They have great home ability. They are small sized birds but I noticed that in the offspring, the larger birds as youngsters usually don't make it back home for some reason. Every once in a great while I get a larger than normal offspring and they are usually act like jumpy and panicky from everything noise.
Their flying pattern and habits are excellent but they tend to sky when feed Milo/Wheat. They require some more protein with their mix to keep them closer to earth. They don't sky out where they can not be seen, but I think it is a bit higher than they should be.
Jay
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bman
6 posts
Jul 11, 2006
10:11 AM
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Hey J STAR
You are from Ohio? If so hello from a fellow buckeye.
As far as homing instinct in rollers the ones I have had in the past were pretty lousy.But when I did have an overfly the ones that made it back were pretty much bullet proof after that.Those are the ones you could count on to come straggling back even if it took a couple of days.
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Ron
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parlorfancier916
108 posts
Jul 11, 2006
12:22 PM
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you can cross breed a hommer with a parlor roller, it will be gaurenteed a roller and will fly long distances :D, but beware usually, crossing a parlor with a bird that doesn't roll but can fly tends to become a chronicle bumper..
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J_Star
506 posts
Jul 11, 2006
1:06 PM
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Yes Ron, I am from Lorain, Ohio.
The family that I have are really home strong and I had couple of overflys so far. I lost couple each time and those are the weak ones. Although, I learned when not to fly my birds to avoid the overfly thing. I've had some birds strolled back a weak later. I've heard it many times from allot of fanciers that the Jaconette strain are known to be stong homing. Although, I have some birds from Paul fullerton which are made up of many strains also were involved in the second over fly and only lost couple. But the rest were on top of the loft first thing in the following morning.
Jay
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ROLLERMAN
37 posts
Jul 11, 2006
3:20 PM
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I think that the location were you live has a lot to do with the bird finding its way home. And how you train your birds. In the early 50s most of us had whitinghams, Tony dury and i got on our bikes and rode to wally fosters to buy some rollers We got 10 birds each. Now over the years tony liked his birds to fly long, and he got them to fly as long as 10 hours and fly right out of sight. He got birds back from as far as 100 miles many times.
i always believed they homed better because of his training
al
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bman
7 posts
Jul 12, 2006
6:06 AM
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JAY
I'm just south of Youngstown.I have just gotten back into the rollers and don't know anybody in the area still flying.THe guys I know either quit or don't fly seriously.
I think you could probably train/select for homing instinct just like my homers but no one wants to risk the losses it would take to accomplish that.I don't race them but my homers get single tossed at 15 miles first time and I rarely lose one.I think with a lot of rollers the losses would very high at even 1 mile.
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Ron
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J_Star
511 posts
Jul 12, 2006
7:58 AM
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Ron,
There are allot of roller men with excellent birds in the Akron and Canton area. Try to hook up with them. I know Youngstown/Warren area are too far from Akron. I am about hour and half away from you, which is really not too far.
I don't know what you mean by traing the birds for them to become strong homing. My birds when they are very young do go all over the place and far. But when they reach about 5 months old, they stick to the sky above my house doing their figure 8 over and over unless it is very windy day. On windy day, they will go towards the wind direction, then after 10 min they are back in the sky above the house.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jul 12, 2006 7:58 AM
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bman
8 posts
Jul 12, 2006
8:45 AM
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JAY
What I meant is with homers you gradually increase the distance from the loft that you release them.I seem to experience most my losses with rollers in the first couple of months that they are flying,if they drift with the wind or are scattered by a hawk etc. I will almost certainly lose some of the kit.I think if I took the kit I have now
(3-4 months old)more than a 1/4 mile away I probably could kiss them goodbye.But if you did that for couple of seasons you would be selecting for better homing instinct.
Only problem I have enough work ahead of me trying to breed some good rollers without risking more losses.
I watched the Akron/Canton guys fly a couple of times back in the 80's,I was hoping to maybe bump into one here.
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Ron
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katyroller
39 posts
Jul 13, 2006
9:19 PM
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J Star, I fully agree with what you say about the Jaconette family normally not showing the kind of performance I described. I had other Jac. based families before these and have had others since and I never saw a repeat of that performance. I probably did have some strong flying dummies in the kits but for some reason that family turned out alot of birds that were willing to route. Their homing skills were good but it didn't make up for their piss poor flying habits. My current Jac. based family is throwing young that never route out of sight and are so small I am starting to worry about over flies.
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Opinionated Blowhard
54 posts
Jul 13, 2006
10:01 PM
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Im sure that rollers that make a habit of flying very high (such as over 1500 feet) develop better homing intinct. They get blown around and fly so high that they learn to use other landmarks around their town to locate the home loft. Its like young homers going routing. If you fly young homers with old ones the young ones wont route and you will lose more on the first training toss over a couple miles. Kevin
Last Edited by Opinionated Blowhard on Jul 13, 2006 10:02 PM
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