Shia
13 posts
Jul 03, 2006
12:38 AM
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I've been on the web looking thru pages and learning what I can. While doing that I came across someone's page and they stated that they were stocking their birds as young as 3 months. The majority of what I've heard is that birds should be flown for about 2 years before being stock. That way you can see if they're stable.
Is it a good idea to stock a bird that young?
If so, is it because that family is guarantied to be stable?
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C.J.
355 posts
Jul 03, 2006
3:32 AM
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Shia I personally do not stock birds at such a young age for a few reasons. One they are just coming into the roll so they haven't shown me exactly why they should be in my breeding loft. I have seen guys who are short on birds quickly move them to the other pens. But on the other hand all of my breeding keeper birds go to the breeding pen well before two years of age. Since I don't have much trouble with flying predators I fly my breders in the off season. This allows me to make further culls all of the time.
C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Jul 03, 2006 3:36 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
176 posts
Jul 03, 2006
7:33 AM
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Shia,
anytime you see guys stocking hot young birds and talking about breeding from roll downs, you have a poison combination. This type of breeder is not breeding to improve the breed.. Ask yourself, if you breed from roll downs if they are fast enough, then stock the young ones at 3 months old before they have a chance to roll down themselves, What is it you are promoting in your stud of birds? What is it your selling people all over the country out of the nest? This type of breeder is only out for money and wants to breed hot out of roll downs, bumpers and rollers, anything that will roll just to make a buck. Any time you see a guy promoting breeding from roll downs and stocking birds at 3 and 4 months old doing 40 foot.. You know you either have a Birmingham roller retard, or a feather merchant!!! Just my opinion.. Mongrel Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
672 posts
Jul 03, 2006
8:04 AM
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Hey Shia, I would want to know the circumstances as to “why” someone is stocking that young. The reason may be justified in that they just wanted to have some offspring from a proven, tightly bred pair to continue some line-breeding program, or perhaps they felt that flying them would risk them to predators and set them back or delay thier forward progress. Need to know their thinking on it.
In an ideal world, flying out a roller is preferred. But with all the possible constraints on a breeding program, fanciers may have to improvise and come up with “work-a rounds”. Eventually, the offspring from this pair will need to be proven acceptable for what the goal of the breeder is.
In Southern California, some guys don’t have the luxury of flying a bird for two years as the constant onslaught of predators makes this nearly impossible. So they have to pull some birds well before two years is up if they are to stay in the hobby and try to improve on their program. This is not ideal, but some have to do things like this just to stay in the hobby.
As for your other question of guarantee of “stability”, it doesn’t mean either. It shouldn’t be construed as such unless the family is known for it. Then it is fair to make some assumptions and see how they play out by testing it.
Be careful about reading too much into some comments and then painting with a broad brush what someone has said about their own particular situation to your own or to someone else’s.
Your loft is your laboratory; experiment and see what works best for you. Use your good common sense and apply critical thinking to what others say and continue to ask questions, you won’t go too far wrong.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
628 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:41 AM
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I did it once. A black white flight cock that came in after fying only about a month or so. He rolled so nice and basically was displaying everything I wanted to see in a roller. I took a gamble and pulled him from the kit. I was still flying his brothers and sisters. He actually did pan out quite well as a breeder, which probably meant that if I had continued to fly him, chances were pretty good he would have been a sound bird. Most all of his brothers and sisters were so it was a safe bet.
Would I do that again? No, no matter what. That was a one time situation. Some birds show their different problems not long after starting to fly. Others develop problems later on as they mature. Some might be stone cold roll downs but you won't know it until they have flown for over a year. There are a ton of variables to consider.
As Tony said, here in so cal, which I am sure is similar to many areas of this country, flying birds out past a year of age is becoming more and more difficult. I generally give mine to the 10 month mark before making an assessment that I might consider trying the bird. I have so many stocked right now it would be foolish unless the bird performance-wise surpasses one in the stock loft.
Brian
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motherlodelofts
830 posts
Jul 03, 2006
4:49 PM
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I was "booted" off Dave , as were my posts that tried to help those that don't know any better, what was left ? garbage justifying breeding rolldowns and culls.
What you clowns pulled yesterday was (Edited By Moderator: See Posting Policy) !!!
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Jul 03, 2006 8:31 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
177 posts
Jul 03, 2006
5:18 PM
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Hey Scott,
Now look what you went and did!! LOL Reefer reeking circus midgets!! LMAO where do you come up with this stuff at? I can't figure out how you were able to hang out over there so long.. How did you keep from saying something when guys would talk out of both sides of their mouths anyway??
1. I breed for roll first! This is my rec, dilute opal project, man this color is rare! When I get the factors locked in, I will work on the roll.
2. We all get along great and all opinions are welcome.. Oh just say something I don't like or agree with and your toast, Booted!!!
3. I think debates are bad for the hobby. I don't think we should have debates on our reefer reeking midget site. I think to not have open debate on our refer reeking midget site would be violating free speech.. Wait, isn't this a debate about not having debates? LMAO
4. We welcome all points of view, as long as you agree with us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOW DID YOU TAKE IT MAN???????? Tell me the truth, did they pump reefer into your house just to keep you loaded enough to listen to that double talk or do you just have a fetish for stoned midgets? LOL Welcome back Scott, from some where over the broken rainbow back mountian to the Birmingham roller world and rational thought.. Mongrel lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jul 03, 2006 9:48 PM
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fhtfire
510 posts
Jul 03, 2006
5:36 PM
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Shia,
At the Bare Minumum I get at least 12 to 13 months of flying under there wings before I consider them for the Stock loft. This is from my birds...birds that I have bred. Now..it can be done..putting young birds together at 6 months old..for example..I bought some Ruby Rollers back in early 04..just one pair..to see what they had...I did not want to risk losing them..so...I bred from them without seeing them fly. Well, that pair is producing some very nice spinners for me. Scott Campbell gave me a 97 hen and I pulled an 03 cock out of his kit and bred them..they too produced some very nice spinners.... I would not make a habit of it and I would NEVER do it with my own birds. But if you are just Starting out and get some young birds from a breeder that has a good reputation and is know for having a nice well bred family of proven birds..then that is a different story...you have to do what you have to do...but I would fly out the young from your original pairs for at least a year.
Tony has a good point about Predators and the worry of a bird getting taken...but you should be able to get at least 9-10 months of flying predator free. If predators are so bad that you have to pull birds at 3 months...well, what fun is having rollers..LOL!! If 9-10 months is all you can get..you still have the option of locking them down during hawk season and flying them again when they are gone.. or pulling them at that time..some families are giving you all they have at 10 months old...but sometimes you have to do...what you have to do...but 3 months old with no fly time is a HUGE gamble...even a bigger gamble of putting pairs together that you have seen fly.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
761 posts
Jul 03, 2006
5:42 PM
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Shia.I have several pair of breeders that the first round of youngsters were stocked before they were ever flown.Sometimes you better have some of that bloodline as a backup in case something happens to the original pair.There is time enough to fly out other youngsters to be sure they are what you want to breed from and then you can replace them.Never fly anything you can't afford to lose.
Tony posted a very good post.Sometimes things are not always as they appear to be and a have good reason behind it.David
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dave
117 posts
Jul 03, 2006
6:02 PM
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Shia,
If you have a pair that you have bred from before and know how they produce than I think you can pull them out when they are young and use them for breeding. I think that for someone to pull a bird that young to use as breeders they have to know their birds inside out.
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motherlodelofts
832 posts
Jul 03, 2006
6:33 PM
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Enjoy your birds Dan ! There is a whole world of experianced breeders and flyers out there that you can learn much from.
Scott
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nicksiders
677 posts
Jul 03, 2006
8:41 PM
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I have never been compelled to defend this site; there are many who seem to be compelled to defend other sites....hmmm. What is this telling us?
I have also found that I have never been compelled to defend my faith, but that is another story and another site.
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Snicker Rollers
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
680 posts
Jul 03, 2006
8:43 PM
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AMEN, Nick!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
514 posts
Jul 03, 2006
9:25 PM
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I second that...with a kung fu grip...BAM
rock and ROLL
Paul
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thong
9 posts
Jul 03, 2006
11:21 PM
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I never stock a bird unless I have seen it performed with my two eyes and a bent neck. Over the years I have bought birds from here and there as well as received very good birds from friends, BUT I never stock'em untile I see the goods for myself. I don't even take the advice of the giver either. I fly the bird and make sure it performed to my standard before thinking about stocking it. Sorry to say, but only the best will do. And even that is not enough sometimes.
thong
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Heyyou
7 posts
Jul 04, 2006
10:35 AM
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Bent Neck? Go get a good chaise lounge or an old office chair with a head rest and really enjoy the show from comfort.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
92 posts
Jul 04, 2006
11:12 AM
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Thong, I agree with you 100% it is never enough to be satisfied but the bent neck adds nada to the bird or air it is just a nice feature,( fan tail look).
Later Dude.....
R-Luna
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nicksiders
680 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:00 PM
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Kenny, I think I am in love with you....LOL. (Will that get me thrown out of this site?....LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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dave
119 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:03 PM
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Kenny, did you get anything of that #10 hen you got back from Joe Emberton. I had one of her daughter here but the tape got off her wing and off she went into the sunset. Too bad, she was a real nice bird in the air.
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motherlodelofts
833 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:32 PM
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Dave I don't think Kenny would have taken her back if there wasn't a reason.
Scott
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Mongrel Lofts
179 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:41 PM
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Hi Dave,
Yea, I have six in the kit box out of #10 on her half brother.. I really like that hen, she reminds me so much of one of my old foundation cocks, CCRC-88-#71.. The young are still very young, about 4 weeks in the air but they are tumbling and doing what young birds should do at their age.. Sorry to hear you lost the one you had off #10..I have her resting now and plan to put her on another mate for a round or two to finnish out the breeding season.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jul 05, 2006 8:42 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
180 posts
Jul 04, 2006
1:46 PM
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Kenny, I think I am in love with you....LOL. (Will that get me thrown out of this site?....LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
Hey Nick,
It won't get you kicked off this list.. You might get a few personal request from the Rainbow breeders!! LOL
You know, I think I need to change my handle to MONGREL SLAYER!! LOL
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thong
10 posts
Jul 04, 2006
3:44 PM
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R-Luna, I was referring to my neck LOL, not the bird, but thanks anyway.
Dave that might be a bird you might regret losing.
thong
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knaylor
259 posts
Jul 04, 2006
5:14 PM
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Thats the truth Kenny. I got in trouble for speaking the truth. Heck i cant even send him a personal email because I was so truthful. LOL Kevin
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Heyyou
8 posts
Jul 05, 2006
7:56 AM
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Why don't you fellows just stick to the subject, birmingham rollers, and leave everything else out unless you state, "In my Opinion" because everyone is entitled to their opinion. The title of this sight is All roller talk forum. Leave the personal stuff unsaid, it only matters to you.
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STARFIRE
49 posts
Jul 05, 2006
8:40 AM
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Hey Guys;
I have a question for you.Everybody is saying that they won't breed from a rolldown if they have good birds.If nobody breeds from rolldowns ,how come everybody get some in there stock???And have you ever heard the story about the guy that takes all the culls from one guy and breeds them fo a few years and ends up with better birds than the the guy he got them from? This just proves that anything can happen with pigeons and nobody is right about what to breed or not to breed.You have to use your own judgment.I have bred from rolldowns and have got excellent young from them .I have bred from birds I have bred and never let out and have gotten 40 ft A-1 spinners from them.Nobody can say with certainty that by breeding this way or that way you are going to get great birds.If you don't breed from rolldowns why do you get them in your family?Anyone that has good birds will get rolldowns ,no matter how they breed them.I've had my family for so long I don't hesitate to stock a bird ,if I need it and never let it out.If you listen to all the things that make a bird a cull,no one would have anything good.
Stan Arnold
STARFIRE
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
682 posts
Jul 05, 2006
10:40 AM
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Hey Nick, your credibility or integrity has never been questioned by me. I have culled jammerlofts from this site for my own reasons.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
689 posts
Jul 05, 2006
10:58 AM
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Tony,
I don't know where that came from.....it had to come from statements I made on another place at another time.....probably over purposely breeding defects. I don't know and I probably shouldn't care....oh, well such as it is.
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Snicker Rollers
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J_Star
488 posts
Jul 05, 2006
11:17 AM
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Nick, your credibility and integrity is never questioned by me either. Sometimes you need to watch out from those who you feel sorry for....
The 2nd of July was my birthday and the 4th of July was my wife's, so I stepped a side to celebrate the occassions for couple of days and wow...I missed allot. WOW...
Jay
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Mongrel Lofts
181 posts
Jul 05, 2006
11:48 AM
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Nick,
Your being up front. There is no need for you to try and explain your actions.. That post had nothing two faced in it at all.. JC hoped you didn't have it and tried to paint you in a bad light by implying your post to him was bad and two faced.. We can all see his intentions. What happened to all the two faced crap you said Nick was talking JC? Typical and what I have come to expect..
Let me ask a question, how many of you guys over here promote breeding Roll downs? I know when I was a kid and first started in rollers, I bred from many and tried every combination you can think of with roll downs.. Kids can be cruel but then we grow up.. I did on occasion breed a good solid roller from a roll down, but The percentage was so small it made no sense.. Why breed from a cull that will for sure promote a high percentage of more culls in the long run.. Its not just the young off the roll down one should look at, its the generations that will be bred into the line with this fault.. I mean when you inbreed and line breed a family towards birds with this fault of roll down. What is your expected out come? Could this be the reason so many color breeders promote continual out crossing of famillies?
The guys who cross breeds for color, Then try to get them rolling again use roll downs often in the beginning trying to get roll in the crosses.. For this reason, you will often hear them talk about getting the roll is easy in any color.. Its breeding control of the roll that is difficult.. Once you take the brakes out of the gene pool, putting them back in may not be as easy as one might think..
My opinion and experience is that using roll downs in the stock loft is a desperate move that you will be dealing with for years and trying to purge. Grown men promoting it, seams odd at best to me.. What's your take on breeding roll downs?
Mongrel lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jul 05, 2006 11:56 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
683 posts
Jul 05, 2006
12:22 PM
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Hey Nick, you reached out with an olive branch and had it used to try and slap you down. Some people are just no good.
...now...this side of the country sing "koom-bya my lord" and this side sing "welcome to the jungle"...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
516 posts
Jul 05, 2006
12:26 PM
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I agree with you Mongrel. A rolldown is a cull, a non-kitter is a cull, a 5' bird is a cull, an axle roller is a cull, a slow roller is a cull, a sloppy tail ride out of a roll is a cull. I know that "most" breeders would not breed from the above mentioned...which are culls...then why would you breed from a roll down...that too is a cull. You want to breed from the best...it does not make sense to me to breed from the worst...why would you do that? Starfire...of course you are free to do what you want in your loft...and you MAY have the benefit of owning your birds from 30 years...and you must know your birds very well if you have had them that long. You must remember that new guys take what everyone says here and absorbs it like a sponge...trust me they will see the 30 years as this guy is an expert and will not see the 30 years as this guy knows his birds inside and out and can do things with breeding that a new fancier should not. When I post I try and give the advise like I remember reading it when I was a rookie. Stan...you can pull a rolldown...or stock a bird without flying it...well because you know your birds and know your pairs...but keep in mind that a new guy does not know his birds and does not know his pairs....and will do some things that a newbie should not do at the begining. I myself would NEVER breed from a rolldown...unless that was the last bird from a pair that dried up or died and I did not have any offspring left...and that was the only one and I wanted to roll the dice to try and keep that blood in my loft...then I would maybe do it..to see if I could pull one stockable bird to keep the bloodline going. It would have to be one extreme case.
Yes I know that you can breed a bad bird and get some good birds....but your odds are a lot higher breeding your best..not your worst. You think a horse racer breeds from a plow horse...or a dog breeder breeds from a dog that has a major flaw....HELL NO!! Again with experience comes wisdom. A lot of old timers that have had birds for longer then I have been on this earth....can pick birds right from the nest and stock them....I have some pairs right now that I could do that to if I had to...but that comes from years of having your birds...just remember when a newbie is on here..they are listing to everything that we say...and we should start them on the right foot....and when they get some time under there belt...they can use there experience with there birds to do a little gambling. Just because you get lucky one time does not mean you do it again. I mean if you jumped off a 5 story building and did not get killed would you do it again....thinking you would have the same result...HELL NO! You got LUCKY...just like breeding from a inferior bird. I think you start off learning the basics...Fly out your birds and have them earn a spot in the stock loft, breed from your best birds, Keep good records, Cull birds that are inferior and cross your fingers. There are some Cardinal rules that you follow when you are starting out..building your own line...but do not break the Cardinal rules until you have time under your belt and enough good stock birds to recover if you do decide to gamble...try things is the name of the game...Right now I am crossing two strains..Ruby and Emami...it is not good when you are starting out..to cross families...but I have enough stock birds to roll the dice and see what happens..if the cross does not work...the 6 -8 perches will become empty and they will be filled with birds from my proven stock. A new flier does not have that luxury to have side projects. Teach them the basics and when they get enough experience and work with ther birds for years...they can have the side projects that make rollers fun
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shia
15 posts
Jul 05, 2006
11:16 PM
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Wow, thanks for everyone's input. I didn't think it was a good idea to stock birds that young, unless there were certain circumstances. Just wanted to confirm my thoughts.
Paul,
Well said. As a newbie, we do tend to absorb everything everyone says. Thanks for reminding me to stick to the basics, and for the experienced breeder to keep things simple and basic for us until we're a little more experienced.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
764 posts
Jul 06, 2006
3:12 AM
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Paul. I don't agree with everything you said in your last post.I think it is the Newcomers responsibility to learn the Hobby before jumping into the unknown.
What would happen in life if everyone who was experienced never talked about what they did or knew just because there was someone who wasn't up to their level of learning.
A person dosn't become a Race Car driver before learning how to drive.
I spent years never knowing about kit boxes and how to feed rollers because there was no way of communication like we have with the computers.Now that all this info is readily available to everyone I think it is up to each person to decide what is best for them.Sometimes a lesson learned is by making the mistake of doing it.My opinion.David
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
688 posts
Jul 06, 2006
6:04 AM
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Hey David, I disagree that in order to learn, you have to make those same mistakes that others have made. Yes, you learn not to do them, but you also wasted times (years??) by not building ON the progress of others and moving the "ball" forward. Not to mention the frustration and angst of heading down a dead-end and reaching it.
I like the saying: "A wise man learns from his own mistakes, but a genius learns from the mistakes of others".
Let me repeat that in case anyone glosses past it: "A wise man learns from his own mistakes, but a genius learns from the mistakes of others".
Progress is built on the past mistakes and experiences of others, if you spend your time duplicating them, that is what I see as spinning your wheels and wasting time and taking time away from striving toward the ideal Birmingham Roller.
A new breeder will make his share of mistakes anyway striving toward the ideal, he does not have to duplicate the failings of others who have bred from rolldowns to know that as a general rule, it is not the best way to get to the ideal.
We don't pull out the peas to test Mendals theorys, we take it for granted that what he has to say about inheritance and all is true. We then apply what we now "know" to our stud of rollers.
David, I hope I disagreed with you in an agreeable way!! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
519 posts
Jul 06, 2006
9:18 AM
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David,
I do not think that you understood what I was saying. I think that Tony did. Your race car driver thing totally agreed with what I was saying...but you used it in a way to prove your point...but it really does not. My whole post is like you said...a Race Car Driver(experienced good flier) has to learn how to drive first (newbie). That is what I said. You have to learn the basics first....then when you get the time in and have enough "proven" pairs to be able to try the off the wall stuff in breeding...like not flying out some young before stocking...or breeding from a rolldown. Same goes for feeding...stick to the basics and then when you get some time in....you can go against the grain and try your new theories. Like me...everyone says to not feed pellets to kit birds..they drink to much water...blah blah blah...that is what I feed to my kit birds...but it took years to find the right mixture of wheat milo and pellets. I would not tell a new guy to just start using pellets. Over time the have to learn for themselves...but you give them the basics first.
Now back to your race car thing...you are an old driver...driving the Bluesman #29 car...you have a new guy that drives the newbie #00 car....YOu are a well know driver with all the skills needed...old and new drivers listen to what you have to say about racing. On turn 6 you always pass on the inside....but even the best drivers do not make a pass on turn 6.. (TO RISKY)..but you do a move that is risky and 99% of the drivers do not do try the move and pass....because it is not worth the gamble....YOu do the move and most of the time you make the pass...but sometimes you crash your #29 Car..but man when it works you are in the winner circle. Now you have the rookie driver #00 that listens to all you old race car drivers talk....do you tell the young race car driver to go ahead and make the pass on turn 6...that because you can do it.... he can....Because you make it look easy because you have been racing your car for 29 years and know it inside and out and you have been on that track more times then this new #00 driver has been alive. No you do not tell him to make the turn...you tell him in his first years...to race hard and do not do the risky stuff until he knows his car inside and out...has some time under his belt and knows the other drivers habits....once you have the time under your belt..you can practice the turn 6 pass and see if it is a gamble that you want to take. The newbie...once he is a real good driver has some years under his belt...knows his car and crew...he may decide to try it...if he hits the wall...two or three times....he may decide that you are the ONLY one that can make the #6 turn and move on. If you tell him from the very begining that he can make the turn just close your eyes and do...it....before he is ready....well he listens to the old fart...takes the turn in his first race...hits the wall...totals his car...takes out two competitors....now everyone he took out is pissed at him....he misses the next two races...because he is trying to regroup and put his car back together.....his sponsor is telling him if he does a move like that again...he will not have a car to drive...His pride is hurt..He is even thinking about quitting the thing he loves.....so He listened to the old guy that says to hit the turn...you can do it..if I can you can..so he does the "different thing" and crashes and burns....or he listens to the old guy that says...yeah I hit the #6 turn...most drivers do not do it...but I do and it works for me.....but hey kid..99% of the top notch drivers can't make the turn...some have tried it...and the crashed..others saw what happened and decided to not risk crashing....do not try it until you know your car inside and out.....and wait until you have more experience and your sponsors will have a back up car for you...so if you make a mistake and hit the wall...you can recover real quick with your back up car....son it is a risky move to do what I do.....but in time and knowing your car inside and out...you can try to do some things that others say... can't be done..you may find that only a certain person ...can get lucky...some find it never works....but in the meantime...take some baby steps and learn the basics and build you team up....and then try the risky stuff...if you want to.....because you do not want to waste time if you crash with no back up car....your first years are not the years to try the risky stuff..you are trying to make a name for yourself....to risky when you are a new driver....you are not prepared to recover if you crash....SO.....IN EVERY SPORT>>>>>>YOU NEED TO START OUT ON THE RIGHT FOOT>>>AS A TEACHER>>>>TEACH THE NEWBIE AT THERE LEVEL AND WITH TIME AND EXPERIENCE THEY CAN TAKE THE RISKY WAY>>>YOU DON"T GIVE A !ST GRADER A NOVEL TO READ>>>>IF HE CAN BARLEY READ "THE PIG CAN JIG"
TONY>>>NICE POST!!! I agree if you see that someone hits there head against a wall and says...damn that hurts...I am not going to try it myself...I will take his word for it...it one person says it feels good...I still won't try it..because common sense says...that looks like it hurts..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jul 06, 2006 9:20 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
765 posts
Jul 06, 2006
11:21 AM
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Paul.So what you are saying is us old farts are suppose to only talk about the basics on here untill all the newcomers are old farts too?
How am I suppose to learn anything if all I ever hear are the Basics?
Is there a special place where the experts are suppose to talk so the newcomer can't hear what is going on? David
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Mongrel Lofts
185 posts
Jul 06, 2006
12:00 PM
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Hi David,
I think any topic can be talked about on here.. Where would anyone find advice unless they talked about breeding and anything having to do with rollers.. Problem is, if a man say's its fine to breed from birds that don't kit, as long as they spin deep.. Then someone says that is BS. That would make a bunch of birds with the fault of not kitting.. That is both sides.. Some just want everyone to say,, yea breed from non kitters just to go along.. They don't want to be challenged on the statement or belief.. That might cause a debate.. I think hashing out topics is where we all learn something.. all sides are welcome, not just the yea, breed from non kitters.. Just my opinion of course David.. Mongrel Lofts
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fhtfire
520 posts
Jul 06, 2006
12:16 PM
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David,
No...not at all my brother!...I think that when an old fart post something that they do in there loft that is not the "Norm" or a little side project that goes against the grain....or has success in something that normally does not produce success...or is not done unless you are an old fart.... that should be explained as just that. I think all knowledge is power..but when you are new...you know absolutely nothing. Yes,,,,if you have had success breeding from a rolldown...or you stock birds without flying them....just add in the old fart post...that you may have had success with rolldowns...but it is not normal and most of the time you will have lower % of good birds and it is best to breed from your best...or I stock birds at 3 months old without flying them...but I have had my birds for 30 years and I know my birds inside and out and I do have a few pairs that if they come out XYZ colored or XYZ eyed...they will be good birds....that is coming from 8 years of breeding from XYZ pair. Get my drift....David you do that in a lot of your posts as well as others....Scott Campbell always ends it with...this is just what happens with MY birds or in MY loft..it may differ from your loft. My whole post was just to say that...preaching that breeding from rolldowns is OK...sends a message to the new guys that it is OK....you know as well as I know...that it is not against the law....but you have better odds of getting good birds from good birds...you also know as well as I know...that if you pulled a roll-down to breed from...you have a damn good reason for it...or you would pull the bird that is doing everything right. Does that makes sense....by all means post the good and bad points of roller flying...knowledge is power! But if there is a situation like this topic...let the newbie know that it is not the NORM
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerpigeon1963
92 posts
Jul 06, 2006
12:59 PM
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Stocking birds at 3 to 4 months:
Well you have to really look at what the fancier is trying to do. Is he worried he is going to loose a certain bird or birds to birds of prey? Is he building something that he can work with?
Like in my case, I had only 7 pairs of birds to breed from. And after the accident/loss I had I wanted to make sure I had extra birds sitting back for me to grab a hold of later. I kept the first round of birds in and did'nt fly any of them because they all were from a family of good birds. A nice tight family that will work with just about any birds that I have in my loft. And now I'm flying all the rest of the squeekers. And once they have proven themselves I will start pulling the questioned birds out and replacing them with the good birds. Since we have a bad hawk problem around here it is very hard to fly year around. So around the end of sept I will lock up the birds. Or only fly on very select days. This is the reason I'm breeding out of non-proven birds. I know it will be some hard work to get the best out of them doing it this way. But with the family I have I believe I will still be years ahead.
Now when feb rolls around I use my holdovers for breeders and fosters until the end of april. When I will get them back in the air. So the holdover birds are a plus in my breeding program. And these are birds that are questionable but carry some good traits that really didn't make the stock loft.
Now let me ask this? I have a proven click pair! a pair that has proven to produce some high numbers of stock birds. Now do I keep a couple of rounds from them just to have back incase something happens to one of the click birds?
Now with a window of 5 to 6 months of flying. And you have birds only on the wing for 3 months I can't really see stocking a bird until the following year. Kind of blows what I'm doing out of the water LOL LOL.
But some people will stock a bird at a young for a couple of reason.
1. They are afraid of loosing them to birds of prey.
2. They are of certain color.
3. Because the birds is really cooking and they might have a thought that the bird will crash and burn down the road.
But the above excuses are not for the guy that is breeding for performance. Because if he/she was they would lock them up and fly them out the following year.
I will say if someone has a good stud of birds why would one choose to breed from a 3 to 4 month old bird. Should have better in the loft.
just my opinion,
nothing here being negitive
Brian Middaugh
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Velo99
526 posts
Jul 06, 2006
7:22 PM
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Brian,
Although you made the disclaimer if you ever have any "on down the road" questions, I would not take the chance on a recessive gene cropping up and blowing it all up. Last season I pulled a cock and culled 6 yb`s cuz the cock started bumping after about 14 months.I had him in the air after the first season of breeding and he started bumping almost every time out. Stocked him at 10 months. Was my best cock that season.
And color. I won`t go there. lol
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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smoke747
1177 posts
Jun 04, 2008
10:39 AM
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most of my birds get about 12 - 16 months of fly time before i consider them for the stock loft (2 seasons) which is 6 - 8 months lock down for 4 months and back out for another 8 months. then i decide if i NEED it in the breeding program.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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WaTtS UpP
922 posts
Jun 05, 2008
5:32 PM
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whats up bi keith
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Watts uppp homeboy
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smoke747
1182 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:01 PM
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whats up watts?
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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wishiwon2
63 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:18 PM
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Good point Keith about "needing" birds for stock. I think that a sucessful breeding program ought to have a 'research and development' program where new birds are tested to see if they can produce or not. But, in my opinion, birds shouldnt be stocked or bred from simply just because they are of stockable quality. If need them in your program, for sure, if not fly them and enjoy them.
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smoke747
1184 posts
Jun 06, 2008
11:17 PM
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when a bird goes into the loft one has got to come out
smoke747----------
Keith London
ICRC
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pure roller
65 posts
Jun 06, 2008
11:46 PM
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Say smoke next time you put one in the loft send me the one you take out. One mans gold is the next mans diamond.
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elopez
1450 posts
Jun 07, 2008
12:03 AM
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Sorry Pureroller, I usually get first dibs...lol
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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pure roller
67 posts
Jun 07, 2008
1:00 PM
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Elopez looking at those birds of yours its only fair you let us get some of the goods.
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
24 posts
Oct 28, 2008
10:25 AM
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o/k I got a young cock bird with all the goods 6 months old . I also have a older proven hen that her mate was resently taken by a hawk. Now i stopped flying both and I dont have alot of good birds that are showing off like them . My question is .... how old do a cock bird has to be before he can produce fertile eggs? I no I should wait ...but I want to start a line off these two birds so i can fly the babies next year..What do yall think...?thanks STUDENT 2 THE GAME
p.s. go easy on me for im just learning the ropes , and I do listen to all advise
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