nicksiders
709 posts
Jul 14, 2006
9:33 AM
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Do you believe the Birmingham Roller to be a performing standard or a specific breed? Is the breed a Roller with the word "Birmingham" denoting a performance standard?
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Snicker Rollers
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AIREDALE
22 posts
Jul 14, 2006
9:59 AM
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I believe it's a Breed not a standard.Everyone has his own standard.Individual preferences such as depth,frequency,velocity kitting ect.comprise the package.I don't think a standard can agreed to by all.Take your best performers,put them together and you're going to get some below standard.They might be culls but they're still Birminghams.How many rollermen have kit boxs of birds that conform to the high standard? What do we call the birds that don't fit the standard, Bumpinghams or Nothinghams.We just have to keep trying to do the best we can to preserve the best BREED OF PIGEONS, The Birmingham Roller.Just my 2 cents worth.Great question by the way.
John
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3757
65 posts
Jul 14, 2006
12:16 PM
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(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."
There is a standard for performance and there is a breed of Birmingham rollers as well. This standard was set over 120 years ago.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:58 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
191 posts
Jul 14, 2006
3:55 PM
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Hi Nick,
My opinion is the Birmingham roller is a breed of course!! It was set long ago and imported to the United States as a breed. The Birmingham roller has a rich Heritage and background.. Does the Birmingham roller have a standard of performance? Of course it does!! The faster, straighter, deeper, more frequent and stylish the roll, the more highly regarded a Birmingham roller is.. Do many Birmingham rollers not obtain this high standard? Of course many do not reach the ideal standard of performance of the Birmingham roller but that does not change the breed they are.. Other breeds of rollers have been bred that can roll as good as many Birmingham rollers.. Does that make them a Birmingham roller just because they roll well? My Cousin Larry had a rec, red Vienna tumbler that could flat out spin.. She was about 15 feet and seamed to drop slowly.. Did her performance turn her from a Vienna tumbler into a Birmingham roller? I had an oriental roller when I was a kid that dropped deep and with decent straight roll.. As good or better than many Birmingham's flown over our lofts today.. A very scorable roll in todays Competition.. Did the fact that Oriental roller could roll turn him from an Oriental roller into a Birmingham roller? I have often had parlor rollers that could fly.. Most of them just start flipping and can't fly but every once in a while one will fly and then just go into a very nice spin all the way to the ground.. Was that Parlor roller a Birmingham roller while he was spinning until he hit the ground? Then he changed back into a parlor roller once he was grounded? Its Ridiculous to say the only thing that makes a Birmingham roller is the fact it can roll.. The Birmingham roller is a breed with a genetic make up. It was a breed well formed and set before it ever came to this country.. Its a breed just like all other breeds of pigeons.. It is just a breed that also has a performance standard that is bred for.. Just like a racing homer is a breed that is also bred to a performance standard.. If a racer fails to make it home, does he stop being a homer? If a Birmingham roller flys 30 miles to return to his loft, does he quit being a Birmingham roller and has now become a racing homer? The Birmingham roller is and has been a set breed..
The simple answer to your question is the Birmingham roller is a breed of its own that is bred towards a performance standard.. Crossing a Swallow on a Birmingham roller then breeding back to the Birmingham roller would change the breed and its genetic make up.. You can't put another breed into a set breed without changing the genetic package of the breed..
My personal opinion is that once you have made a Breed cross on a set breed, you have changed and created a new breed.. All breeds are created by some kind of crossing as was the Birmingham roller 120 or more years ago.. Thing is, once that breed has been set and has become a breed, if you cross it to other breeds other than the Birmingham roller breed. You are once again creating a new breed not the same as the Birmingham roller when it was created.. The new cross breed of tumbler is genetically changed and different from the Birmingham roller..
Nick, many who have crossed the breeds and polluted the gene pool of the Birmingham roller, want us all to believe the only thing changed is the color. The rest of the bird is still the same as the Birmingham roller.. How can they begin to claim this? How do they select out the color, factor or pattern and leave all the other genes of the ice pigeon behind? They have no idea what character and physical traits are genetically added and passed into the newly created tumbler breed from the other breeds..Once the Birmingham roller is crossed the gene pool is changed forever!! We don't have any idea how and where and in what combination the Gene tape is linked for the breed Birmingham roller. No one can say, I just added the color and nothing else about the breed has changed.. Well, they can say it, but that poodle won't hunt!! LOL That's my short answer Nick and I'm sticking to it LOL Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jul 14, 2006 4:01 PM
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parlorfancier916
115 posts
Jul 14, 2006
4:48 PM
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it's like asking if an iranian horse that was breed for it's speed is a breed or a standard, it is my opinion it is a family breed for a standard.
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motherlodelofts
844 posts
Jul 14, 2006
5:08 PM
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No brainer Nick, the only time I have ever heard of anyone claiming that it isn't a breed was from color breeders making an excuse why other breeds were introduced for color , then and only then you get " duh it not a br a bre a bree a breed duh sniff snort fart" .
They are the only one's that want others to beleive it isn't a breed or the other good one "it is a breed of mongrals due to what was used to develope the breed" DUH all breeds of all domestic birds and animals were developed from other breeds, just more color breeder mumbo jumbo trying to confuse the new flyers.
Yes even my birds that only do a few crappy dish rag tumbles are still Birmingham Rollers , they are culls but that doesn't change what they are.
The fact is this is a very complicated breed that evolves around the mental and physical aspect of this amazing breed , rolling is only one aspect , it must be able to physicaly and mentaly handle it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 14, 2006 5:16 PM
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Velo99
545 posts
Jul 14, 2006
7:08 PM
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To actually answer the question.
To have a performance breed there must be a standard for it to perform to.The standard changes as the breed evolves.
When will it evolve past a breed of performing rollers and into something else with a different standard all together?
That could be the real question.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Jul 14, 2006 7:10 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
733 posts
Jul 14, 2006
8:26 PM
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The Birmingham Roller will never evolve. Evolution is ONLY a theory and has never been demonstrated in a lab or observed in nature. Despite what bluebar says, more and more scientists are rejecting Darwins theory.
The BR was developed using a combination of pigeons with various characteristics. Nothing new was created or made to spontaneously come into existence.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
547 posts
Jul 15, 2006
5:47 AM
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Okay Tony,
I concede on the evolution point,it was a misnomer.
What I am referring to is as the breed was developed,the standard changed,as the rules for competition have changed as well.
We are in constant development of better birds therefore the breed has changed not in the evolutional sense but in a husbandry sense due to the manipulations of breeders like us.
What will be the next step?
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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C.J.
432 posts
Jul 15, 2006
5:56 AM
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Velo I don't know about you but I am trying to cross breed my neighbors turkey with my rollers. LOL
C.J.
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nicksiders
711 posts
Jul 15, 2006
6:27 AM
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Paul Fullerton had a bird the size of a game hen that rolled like a champion; the turkey thing might work(LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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motherlodelofts
845 posts
Jul 15, 2006
7:43 AM
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Jay I think that the only "next" step to take is breeding more of the best.
Scott
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fhtfire
536 posts
Jul 15, 2006
9:15 AM
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Hey Kenny,
That game hen that Nicksiders is talking about that rolls like a champion is out of that breeder pair that I sent you...Just so you know....and nick is not lying..this bird is a big SOB
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
537 posts
Jul 15, 2006
9:16 AM
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Mongrel.....EXCELLENT POST MAN!!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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thong
20 posts
Jul 15, 2006
9:57 AM
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Excellent post Scott and Kenny. Now if someone doesn't understand that, they are missing out.
thong
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Velo99
549 posts
Jul 16, 2006
5:33 AM
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Hey Paul,
The turkey pair are fine and dandy. They are sitting on a almost three week pair now and she sneaked a pair of eggs in on me. Even the squabs are huge. But they do roll. Pretty well at that. With the wild weather out here this turkey might even hunt. lol
Anyone interested in some deep rolling turkeys contact Paul,he`s my agent.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
If they don`t gobble,they aint shit!
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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