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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Which Is Easier?
Which Is Easier?
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Double D
269 posts
Sep 05, 2006
6:55 PM
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Is it easier to get young birds who fly high initially to fly lower later when they start rolling?
OR
Is it easier to get birds who have developed the habit of flying low to fly higher with correct types and amounts of feed?
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
712 posts
Sep 05, 2006
7:59 PM
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It has been my experience that young birds which learn to fly high from the beginning, and particularly those which leave the kit and take off flying high, tend to be harder to manage and keep down low. There are exceptions to this philosophy of mine.
When you say "high" are we talking a couple hundred feet or 800+ feet. There is a big difference in what is "high" for one guy as compared to another. I consider anything over 600+ to be high. 300-500 is the "sweet zone" where when they are older, will really let it rip.
Generally if your birds are flying "too low", meaning less than 100 feet or even 50 feet off the deck, once they start rolling or coming into the roll, you will see them start to lift up.
Brian.
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fhtfire
566 posts
Sep 05, 2006
8:54 PM
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Double D,
Brian is totally right...what is to high? To be honest...unless young birds are really flying super low or flying super high...that is what gets me going crazy. You will find with young birds...they will fly a little high one day and a little low the next. The real deal is when they start hitting the nice rolls. They WILL usually go up a little when they start to roll...or they will bounce one time and say..oops...to low..lol! A headache usually does that.
I myself like my birds to fly higher then lower when they are young. I noticed when I had Mason's they flew low all the time...My Morts/Roe and Ruby rollers...fly a little higher when they are young but just high enough to where they come into the roll and the proper feed and a little age and they end up just perfect. Just keep in mind that young birds are inconsistant...when they get some age and get the roll..then you can tweak them with feed, give them some rest and then they will be more consistant.
Again, I myself like them flying a little higher then lower when they are young. To me..and this is me...it is easier to get them down then to try and get them to go up...my flag is only so tall...but some flags are bigger then others..lol!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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C.J.
580 posts
Sep 06, 2006
4:22 AM
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I hate the ones that fly high. What is the point in having them if they are so high they look like a jet. I have one bird that rolled very well but was extremely high. He would take normally low birds and send them higher.
This bird was a cull
C.J.
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Double D
270 posts
Sep 06, 2006
6:54 PM
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These young birds usually fly 800+. I have an older kit however that always flys too low most of the time in my opinion. I've tried everything to get them to fly higher but most of the time, they just won't do it. That being the case, I have kind of appreciated this younger group flying high thinking it might be easier to get them lower later on than it has been getting the older, low-flying kit to fly higher. Hence the reason for asking the question. Thanks for the responses.
P.S. Paul, if you've sent me anything, I've never received it. Did you get those boxes yet
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
715 posts
Sep 06, 2006
8:36 PM
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Have you ever flown the two kits together?
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fhtfire
568 posts
Sep 06, 2006
8:46 PM
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Darin,
writers block...lol..I am going to work on it tomorrow a little more and that may be the final draft...Yes I recieved the boxes! Give me a call tomorrow anytime during the day.
Try resting those older birds for a couple of days and feed them up and see what happens.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
569 posts
Sep 06, 2006
8:48 PM
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Brian has a good idea...let them out together a couple of times and gang fly them...see what happens.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
585 posts
Sep 07, 2006
4:43 AM
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Feed them Milo only or wheat only for a week and see what happens!!
Jay
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Opinionated Blowhard
70 posts
Sep 07, 2006
11:41 AM
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By next June you will be asking us how can you get them to come down and fly lower. Guaranteed. Kevin.
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Double D
271 posts
Sep 07, 2006
12:33 PM
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I haven't flown them together and don't plan to as the older kit has some bad habits of racing around these trees across the street that I don't want the young birds picking up.
As far as feed goes, the older kit is on straight wheat and has been since they were about 3 months old, (now 7 months) with an occasional allotment of mix 3 or 4 times per month and they fly low.
The younger kit, against the instructions of the person I got the birds from, has been on mix and will remain on mix until they come into the roll. I want to try something different because the straight wheat I was instructed to put the older kit on has done nothing for them and I'm wondering if I took them off mix too early even though that's what I was told to do.
I'm hoping next June I won't be asking how to get them down. If the differences in how these kits fly is caused by feed, I can't believe I'm screwing up the feed program THIS bad when I've been following instructions of people who know more than I do. Paul and I have discussed my birds at length and he's fully aware of what I'm talking about with the first kit so on the second one I'm trying something different to see if I get a different result but I certainly don't want to instill the habit of flying too high either while I'm at it.
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
716 posts
Sep 07, 2006
12:55 PM
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Darin, try this.
One time of the kits flying together isn't going to teach the young kit to get into the habit of flying fast down low.
Box up your older kit and have them ready. Release the younger higher flying kit a few birds at a time, don't let them all come blasting out of the box. Let about a 1/3rd of them out, then 10 or 20 seconds later, let the other 1/3rd out, etc. When you kick out the first 1/3rd, reach in and grab a couple of old birds and toss them up so they can go to the just released young birds. After you release the second group of the young ones, do the same thing, toss up a few older low flying ones, until all have been released. Their instincts should be to gather up and kit first. I think you might see a difference. Take note of what changes you witness from start to finish.
Brian.
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Shaun
372 posts
Sep 07, 2006
11:51 PM
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Darin, when I sought advice from some well known roller guys about my perenially low-flying Masons, Ivan was one to say I didn't know how lucky I was. He said most guys have the opposite problem with birds flying too high and pinning out. As you have his family of birds, I would have thought the high flying is more likely to be the trait you'll normally be having to control, rather than the low flying.
What I found interesting is these guys weren't so obsessed about playing about with the feed, in order to get young birds to do as required. It was more about techniques, such as Brian has mentioned above.
I can sense that you feel you're not doing much wrong and I did too with my first batch of youngsters. Fast low flying and landing prematurely in trees proved to be an impossible habit for me to break, so I got rid of them and immediately started with the next batch which were ready to settle. The difference was immediately obvious, in terms of them actually wanting to fly and not landing prematurely. So, as you've experienced, there can be stark differences with different batches of young birds from the same family, which are managed in much the same way.
Having experimented with feed - the usual methods of try all wheat, try all milo, try mixing wheat and milo, add some peas, etc, etc,...well, nothing ever made any difference to their flying performance. I could only see a difference in terms of how fast they flew and how long they flew, if I adjusted the volume of feed, not the type.
In the end, I decided to stick with the feed regime which George Mason said I should from the start (it's a complex mix). I'd already tried this and it hadn't made any difference for the crap kit, but it hadn't made matters worse either. I've stuck with this ever since and that particular feed I can now see clearly suits Mason birds. Conversely, my Dave Moseley birds (another well know English flyer) are fed on pretty much just wheat, according to Dave's recommendation.
OK, so I now had a better second kit and they did the time, but they still flew low and in circles. Various techniques were thrown at me as possible solutions. The answer proved to be, boxing the whole kit up, driving about a quarter of a mile away and releasing them. It was somewhat farcical at first, in that the birds were supposed to rise up to get their bearings, enjoy the feeling of air under their wings and, bingo, they'd return home from a great height. Well, it didn't quite happen like that. They just flew where I released them around this guy's house, at no height at all. I thought what a bunch of stupid birds and returned home in disgust. I could see them out of my bedroom window, still doing the same thing a quarter mile away. However, in the end it worked. They must have realised they had to go up a bit to find their way home. I got them all back safely, then the next day I let them out and immediately they went higher. They were no longer slavishly following each other, around in circles. And as soon as they went up, so the rolling started.
I should mention that in the months beforehand, on occasion I'd been so mad at my birds that I would drive them a mile away then release them, to get them to lift up. That was too far and I lost some. A quarter of a mile was recommended and that worked for me.
My Masons now regularly fly at a reasonable height - they'll never be up high like other families, but it's such an improvement on what I had, that I'm not complaining.
I now have another kit of youngsters ready to settle and this time, I won't wait so long for the training to begin; I'll be doing the quarter mile run, just as soon as the fast flying in circles begins - which it no doubt will.
Cheers.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
891 posts
Sep 08, 2006
3:48 PM
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Darin,
The low flying tree top flying type families can be a real pain, on top of it there isn't a family out there where they will show you their all once mature as they will hold back the roll by fighting it and qaulity can be marginal to say the least.
I want my youngbirds to go up, but they will go through phases of low flying just to irritate me , but once mature I must keep a handle on them and not let them get in in habit of skying out.
Once this habit sets in it is time to start the kit over , to be honest I have gotten much better at it.
One culrit to high flying with hard flying birds is by keeping the kit cut back with lean feed where they just become bone and muscle , at this point they are like marithon runners.
Once my mature birds get to fit I get them out of that condition with richer feeds and locking down for 10 days more or less and then start over with leaner feed.
It is a back and forth process and experiance with my birds have taught me how to best handle them.
Myself I will take a hard flying family over a low flying family as it is easier to learn to hold them down where trying to force birds up is much harder, (I have flown both types)
As for youngsters and Wheat, I just don't do it and if to young mine won't fly on it, but then I cant get as good of Wheat qaulity wise(protein) as some areas.
Some Wheats can run up to 16 0/0 protein which is heavy, i would love to try some but have not found a source localy.
My birds stay on about a 14 0/0 mix (guess) until about 5 months old at which point I'll play with Wheat for two days at a pop or so , but once mature the bulk of their feed is straight Wheat until they get too fly fit , then I pound wt. on them.
My concern is just growing and strength for the youngsters up until this age.
My best advice is to find your own path on handling your birds , there really is no other way and there is not enough consistancy to write it down and say "do it this way" as these birds have different needs depending on age,weather, moult ect. , overdone in all areas means strong and stiff, underdone means weak and unhealthy.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 08, 2006 3:52 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
253 posts
Sep 08, 2006
4:19 PM
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I have some young birds that fly high from the get go. They are natural high fliers. I believe I have isolated that linage and am breeding away. What I found out after asking questions was that this was a trait selected by one of the old time flier in the back grounds of my birds.
I have not yet found a way to stop certain birds from skying out. I truly believe now that it is in the genes and no feed in hell can change it. They either have it or don't. Once they have skied out for the first time, it seems to be like second nature to them. These birds are very hard to control (keep to a good viewing height). I usually cull such birds when I notice the behavior. I have lost whole kits because of such young birds in the past. Since I have been culling, I have had little over fly losts.
What I have found is that young birds that start flying before the rest are usually gonna be natural strong fliers. Many will usually turn into high fliers. I had young birds that took off for the first time hit the clouds (500 feet or more). I have also found out that birds that usually take longer to come in when the lot has landed will usually be a high flier problem as well.
Every one can choose their own trait to install in their future program. You either cull it or let them be. I choose to cull super high fliers. I am not a fan of waiting 3 hours for my birds nor will I enjoy watching pin dots in the air.
High flying is in the eye of the beholder. I like to see my birds but don't want them to fly so low they can't roll them deep ones without crashing.
Thor
P.S. I am not talking about adding certain feeds to make them sky out. I am talking about just feed the normal and have certain birds still sky out. I am also not talking about young birds that break away from the kit because they are coming into the roll. Such birds will usually fly way above the kit and come back to what it was when it gets a handle of it. What I am talking about is birds that sky out on a regular basis.
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motherlodelofts
892 posts
Sep 08, 2006
5:52 PM
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Thor
No doubt genetics plays in and you can see that in the different traits of families.
If I ever had a bird or birds that I thought were dragging the kit into the clouds I would cull it in a heartbeat.
With that being said , mangement and lift type coditions also plays a critical roll along with forming bad habits of playing in the clouds with airliners.
Either way, birds skying out on a constant basis really sucks and is something that I have to work hard at to keep a handle on.
It is a non issue with youngbirds and yearlings in my family though, it is once they mature that the potential problems begin.
Scott
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Double D
272 posts
Sep 09, 2006
11:03 AM
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Excellent insights guys! Interesting Shaun that the techniques and not the feed program brought and continues to bring your birds around to what you want. I certainly would have thought feed was more key than techniques.
I'm not sure how I'm going to do it as the days start getting shorter. I'll have 3 to 4 kits that I'll be working with, two of them are still in the nest right now and haven't even been weaned yet. Pretty soon I'll be going to work in the dark and getting home in the dark, lunch hours will probably be all I'll have to work with. That should make training all these young kits even more interesting.
Thanks gentlemen for making this a thread worth saving to my hard drive for future reference.
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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squeeker
1 post
Sep 09, 2006
1:19 PM
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Hey Darin,
Do you happen to live in Idaho? If so, I may be just North of you. You may be the only roller guy within a 150 mile radius. Keep posting, you have good questions.
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katyroller
55 posts
Sep 09, 2006
7:28 PM
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I have also been dealing with the skying out lately. Not knowing where you guys are from and your local conditions, my observations may not apply to you.
My local weather is hot and very humid during the summers, which is when I have the problem. I believe the cause is that the birds are trying to find thinner air. I have found that when the birds don't fly high, they want to land after 10 mins. and look like they are ready to die. I am a runner so I know how they feel. If the kit skys out they do from 60 to 90 mins. and don't look as bad when they land. My current work schedule doesn't allow morning flying so I fly late in the evenings and worry about over flys.
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Double D
274 posts
Sep 10, 2006
8:44 PM
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Squeeker,
I do live in Idaho, Pocatello to be exact. Where are you at? You can contact me at olson22170@msn.com if you'd like. It would be fantastic to talk to someone locally. The closest guys I'm aware of are in Boise and the Salt Lake area. Looking forward to hearing from you.
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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Mount Airy Lofts
254 posts
Sep 11, 2006
10:15 AM
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Scot,
You are right. Genetics plays a big part in mix. Altho, I can see some one having alot more time and being a better flier keep these high fliers down at a viewable hieght. Like maybe BMC.
I was told I am under feeding my fliers and that is why they are skying out. I tried keeping them fat and flying them. Didn't help much either way except loss of frequency.
Can not stop the genetics or can you? It kind of makes me wonder, if you can turn a Champion into a cull, why not turn a chronic high flier into a viewable bird.
Yes, the majority of my young birds never sky out until they reached a certain maturity. Even then, it most likely will be because of a high pressure or being hawked. Altho, there are certain pairs that will throw nothing but strong high flying birds (young birds to old birds, doesn't matter).
I can see how if some one only selected birds that never flew high... that it can be a trait installed into the family. Kind of reminds me of the stories you hear of Pensom and his Black Badges.
I have found that there are certain birds that would never go into the clouds. If they do, they will only be up there for acouple of minutes. Then break away from the group and head back down to a good viewable hieght. Circling there until the team comes back down to join it. I suspect these birds should make a good balance for the opposite or even better yet, make a good reciept for low flying strain (if it possess all the requirements).Then again, some guys might just call it poor kitting as it did break away. I would like to think that it isn't poor kitting but better judgement on the birds behalf. As of yet, I don't recall ever losing any of the above mentionded birds to an over fly.
Yes, you are right. The genetic traits our birds carry is a mess. That is probably why we need to only select birds that meet our standards.
Thor
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