George Ruiz
114 posts
Sep 30, 2006
10:39 PM
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would anyone breed from unflown birds ?
anyone know anybody flying good kits bred out of unflown birds?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
729 posts
Sep 30, 2006
10:49 PM
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I don't know of anyone who is flying an entire kit, or kits, bred exclusively from unflown parents. I'm sure there are some out there somewhere, mainly newer fanciers I suppose.
One of my better producing hens was unflown.
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Velo99
621 posts
Oct 01, 2006
6:15 AM
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Out of 11 pairs I have flown three birds.
It would seem to me when a fancier gives someone birds to breed they have a certain responsibility to let go of at least decent quality birds. Then it`s up to the recipient to make a go of them.
I am still in the formative stages of my program,having a wide range of birds to choose from,I have put my new found knowledge to work as I paired up my unflown birds according to my vast experience.
As with any new pairings it is always a crap shoot. As a fancier gains more experience there will accordingly be a smaller number of unflown birds in the breeder loft. It is a cyclical process which eventually leads to a fancier having "his" line of birds according to his standards.
jmho
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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bman
61 posts
Oct 01, 2006
9:28 AM
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I have to agree with V99 (Kenny?),
If you are in the early stages every bird is of value till proven otherwise.In my case I started this year with 4 pair of 05 birds I bought out of the air but since they weren't 12 months old yet I feel they were unproven. AT this stage I would try unflown bird in the stock pen if it was from a PROVEN family.
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Ron
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fhtfire
576 posts
Oct 01, 2006
10:27 AM
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Yes and NO!!! LOL!!
There are many times that you may have to breed from unflown birds. If you get breeders from another fancier..obviously you are not going to fly them...so you must breed from them. They most likely have been flown at one time...but never seen with your own eyes...so basically you are taking the breeders word on it.
You may get a small kit of young birds..that you pay good money for...not worth the risk of losing. So you will breed from the young birds without flying them.
You may get a real tight family of birds...like a Billings, Campbell or Tony's birds. They are real tight and the genes are there...it is just a matter of getting lucky...or have the breeder tell you what to pair up...and then breed them and fly the young.
The above metinoned is not unheard of and not uncommon when you are starting out. I mean....I got my first pair of Ruby Rollers back in 03 or 04 and I bred from them without flying them...and they have produced some damn good offspring! Same with some Campbell birds that I had...did not fly them...but they are real tight families
Now if I am established and not starting out...I will fly out everything and pick my breeders to the best of my ability....But you may get a proven pair of breeders from another fancier that carry your blood and you obviously are not going to fly them...so you will fly out the young. I fly out everything that is hatched in my loft...and if it is not hatched in my loft....I will breed and fly out the young....if it is from a real tight family or big money purchase..I will breed and fly the young.
I can only speak for myself...but when you have had your birds long enough you can tell what is going to be a good bird from certain pairs. I have one pair that I know if they come out Blue Bar it is 50/50 that they will be good...if they are Black...they are usually money...if they come out blue check..which I have only had maybe 3 blue checks out of about 20 rounds.....and every blue check was a super star...that is one of those rare instances that I may pull a blue check and never fly it..do to the history and notes on a particular pairs offspring....DO NOT make a habit of ...pulling birds without flying them. Pulling birds from certain pairs without flying is for the experienced fancier....that has done his or her homework and taken a lot of notes and has the history on a pair to make that kind of decision. I have only a couple pairs that I could do that..but I still do not do it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
602 posts
Oct 02, 2006
4:59 AM
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I flew my birds for two seasons before I started the breeding program. Although, they are from a tight gene family, I wanted to make sure that the birds don’t break down after their first season. Only the best of the bunch that showed quality, depth and control made the cut.
The reason was because I wanted to make sure that I was not wasting time and years on what shouldn’t be in the breeding loft. Now, after knowing a lot of fanciers and know their birds and the families they have, I wouldn’t hesitate to take their word and breed without flying their birds. But when I started with rollers I couldn’t just trust anybody or take anybody’s word.
Remember that even if the bird is supper in the air, it doesn’t mean that is supper in the breeding loft. Or it could be supper with the right mate. But if you have a tight family that exhibit quality and performance, then no matter how you mate them together they will breed true.
I breed from eight pairs starting in April and ending in July. I breed about 30 some young. This season, I only culled one due to behavior issue and lost two. The majority of the young are excellent. I will cull some of the ones that don’t cut it next spring after giving them enough time to fly to make room for the next batch of young.
Jay
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pigeonlover01
17 posts
Oct 02, 2006
8:17 PM
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ok i have read the Word "cull" lots of times and dont actually know what it means? Could someone explain do u mean kill the birds or get rid of them im really confused lol no idea hahah somebody...
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~~AnDrEaS wIlLmS~
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Santandercol
322 posts
Oct 02, 2006
8:30 PM
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It's kind of like livestock selection.Only keep and breed from the best.Birds that don't meet the needs of your program if you're planning to put your birds in competition,or severely sick birds,rolldowns.Their heads aren't that well attached.
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fhtfire
577 posts
Oct 02, 2006
9:43 PM
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culling has been used for centuries. Culling is eliminating the bird. Some kill the birds in a humane manner, some sell them for food. Culling is done because of inferior bird or it is sick or injured. I myself sell my birds for a couple bucks to some Mong friends of mine for food. They taste quite good. I have even put a couple of my culls on the showtime routiserie(spelling ???) you know..set it and forget it.....culling is yes ...removing because of being inferior
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2008 2:09 AM
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Velo99
624 posts
Oct 02, 2006
10:15 PM
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Paul ,
last round was black white tail,gives me 6 to fly out.Got one black with one white feather in his tail. He started tailriding on day two. One is hitting 30 or so . He has hit the tree twice and the roof once. Roof was 4 feet and he got up and looked around to see if I was watching. He went back up kitted and went back to work. They work well with the other "blackies" I have.
yits
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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STARFIRE
56 posts
Oct 03, 2006
10:14 AM
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Hi Guys;
When I started my line of birds in 1968,I bought 6 pair of birds from a dealer in Toronto.I was told they were Pensom strain and they turned out to be very good birds.I never seen these birds fly and I never let them out.I bred them till they all died-up to 15 years for some.I never put any other birds with this family for about 28 years.We used to fly 10 birds in competition in those days.I hold the record for the 10 bird fly in Onario 350 points,which has never been broken.My young birds were never been beaten in
competition,against their best birds,young or old,at that time.This was in the T.F.R.C. in 1975 -78.When you are talking about breeding birds you havent proven in the air ,you must remember one thing=THE BLOOD IS THERE.=If you know the family.
Stan Arnold
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STARFIRE
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Oct 03, 2006 10:19 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
811 posts
Oct 03, 2006
12:27 PM
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Andreas. The word CULL means; to choose,select,pick,gather the choice things or parts from, something picked and put aside as inferior. Hope this helps some,David
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BR Rollers
39 posts
Oct 04, 2006
11:13 PM
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In Responce to George's question the answer is yes.
I aquired 10 baby squeakers from a very good breeder and flyer.
I was just starting out and I was very lucky to have these birds gifted to me. Out of these 10 birds I only got 3 pair....most turned out to be cocks. I bred from these 3 unflown pairs this year exclusively.
I have 2 very nice kits flying out of them now and they are of competition quality.
I learned a few things from this. One is that if you have a good family with no outside blood you really have something to keep straight! The guy I got these babies from told me exactly how they would fly and act. When I started to fly them he was exactly right to the letter! I was amazed as to how well he knew his family of birds.
He also told me sometimes he picks future breeders right from the nest. He picks them by TYPE and says the rest is already bred into them. Roll, kitting qualities ect.
I hope this helps with your question.
I will be flying next spring in the WC if the hawks don't get to many of them.
YITS
Ronnie
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katyroller
59 posts
Oct 10, 2006
7:04 PM
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I am breeding out of pairs that I have never flown. I did alot of research before I purchased my breeders. I only did this because I was restarting in the hobby. I will fly out the young and select my future breeders out of the air. Fortunately, my breeders are throwing me some pretty good young performers.
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MILO
5 posts
Oct 10, 2006
8:04 PM
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Stocking birds that have never been flown is not a really wise practice, but sometimes, with all the odds against us these days, it often becomes a last resort. You know, "The dad is sterile and I only have two young off him in the kit", etc. I think that these birds are a long shot, unless they come off click pairs, or proven producers. You never know until you try them in the breeder. You can always figure it out later, but if the bird is falcon soup, then that is an even crappier scenario.
Having said that, my #1 cockbird was never flown... LOL He was off a click pair though, and I liked him the minute I saw him. It is just luck, and the hard work of the man that tried and tested his parents, that I got a good producer. He simply increased the chances of my getting a good one. He still could have turned out to be a cull, but lucky for me, he didn't.
c
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fhtfire
591 posts
Oct 10, 2006
9:54 PM
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Good post Milo!....It is all based on special circumstances....you should not do it...but certain times it may be a good choice...and it does not hurt to TRY.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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sundance
10 posts
Oct 14, 2006
7:31 AM
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when I started out I knew noone with rollers and bought rollers from anyone I could. I got lucky and found a bird from Dick Stephens at a swap meet of all places. I flew him out and was surprised with his quality spin, so I stocked him. Later I had a few birds given to me by a local flyer who had a lot of old Dick Davis blood in them. OUt of them I got a hen who also impressed me. These two were the start of MY FAMILY. And they were flown by me. all the rest were culled, lost ,or eaten by hawks.
Now, I also have a line of old Jaconette birds. These were given to me by a very good friend who bought his stock from Richard Jaconette many years ago. The birds he has given to me I do not fly out because I know their backround and history. I HAVE STOCKED THEM. I recently won anouther pair from him at a club dinner and got to choose 2 birds from his young birds and he had a young pair of nestmates That look almost identicle to BLACK RAIN.
THEY WILL ALSO BE UNFLOWN AND STOCKED.
So, If you dont know the birds fly them if you can afford to lose them. If not, then your breeding will all be experimental 100%. Keep good records. out of these birds you may find a good pair or two. If the blood is there ,then, any roller might be the producer of champions if given the chance but very carefull records must be kept.
If I really like the look of a young bird in my kit , meaning the shape , size , temperment, and he kits well, I sometimes will breed from it , experimentally, and I have gotten some good birds from a couple who never even flipped in the air, but I knew the blood was there.
JUST MY 2 CENTS.............FLY ON YA`LL
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DeepSpinLofts
494 posts
Mar 30, 2008
11:02 AM
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I think we must ask ourselves this question:
Would William Hyla Pensom breed from unflown birds?
If so... then why?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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pacos bill
40 posts
Mar 30, 2008
11:18 AM
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Look guys, I think the day of flying-out brids is just over, we must breed the birds fly the young and that's what it's all about anyway, it is the offsprings performance we are looking for. I don’t think Pensom would waste high potential stock on BOPs.
I think in today’s world he would breed and then proof fly the young.
I see no other alternative we can’t even get to evaluate the young before they get chased to Hell or eaten. Pacos Bill
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 11:22 AM
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Scott
312 posts
Mar 30, 2008
11:36 AM
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If the day ever comes that I can't fly out and proove out birds for either stock or the old bird team is the day I start raising opal crested Fantails.
There would just be no reason to even stick with this breed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 11:40 AM
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George R.
452 posts
Mar 30, 2008
12:24 PM
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Scott
80% of the lofts out there are breeding from unflown Birds.
People think that just because a Bird was bred by someone who has had good Fly scores in the past makes every Bird they breed a Stock Bird.
They think that those top flyers dont ever breed culls , which you and I know that is not true.
just imagine how many guys are breeding out of culls if they get there Birds from someone who dont even Fly there Birds and really dont have a idea of what a Bird is capable of.
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Scott
313 posts
Mar 30, 2008
1:44 PM
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(People think that just because a Bird was bred by someone who has had good Fly scores in the past makes every Bird they breed a Stock Bird.)
Yea I have seen alot of this myself, me and Kenny (KGB) have talked quite a bit about this very thing as there is a lot of garbage out there with his name on it that doesn't represent the family due to people collecting anything with his name attatched to it.
And you see alot of the same here on this site, people collecting birds due to what or who is somewhere behind it.
The fact is it just doesn't work that way and true stock birds are not common,it comes down to building process once a couple of true stock birds are found and prooven. Once they are found then the work begins,and it is slow going.
Sure can get lucky here and there with unflown birds, but to move forward with any type of consistancy you must proove them out, and if you have been working the birds for more than a few years and are stocking unprooven birds then there is a problem, why would you need too ? makes no sence
Hard flyers that do well just don't it, and there is a reason for not doing it, I can't imagine any reason at this point and time to stock unflown birds, if you can't proove them out for any reason than you have the wrong breed and might as well start breeding
for color,crest,bigger muffs ect. myself I take flying way to serious for that.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 1:49 PM
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elopez
898 posts
Mar 30, 2008
1:54 PM
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George,
Where did you get the statistics that prove 80% are breeding from unflown birds? That seem very high to me. Are these from breeders from your area/club?
The lofts that I have visited including mine have birds that where purchased as breeders for breeding. Either that breeder where the birds were obtained from shows their offspring or siblings fly or gives them info on the breeders purchased. Most of my breeders I have not seen fly, but I have seen full siblings or offspring in the air and were to my liking. On a few of my breeders I was not fortunate enough to see anything from them fly but took the breeders word on the quality of the offspring.
I would like to get to the point where all the birds in my loft were breed by me and flown by me, but unfortunately I would have to have some years under my belt in order to achieve this. This is my second season in the sport and with my birds and am very happy with my stock as they show much promise before the bop's get them...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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Scott
314 posts
Mar 30, 2008
2:04 PM
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(I would like to get to the point where all the birds in my loft were breed by me and flown by me, but unfortunately I would have to have some years under my belt in order to achieve this. This is my second season in the sport and with my birds and am very happy with my stock as they show much promise before the bop's get them...)
Yes Efren, it takes alot of years,there is no fast way about it,you find the key birds and start circling the wagons around them, and everything else is used as fosters.
That is how you move foward. Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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elopez
902 posts
Mar 30, 2008
2:10 PM
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That is one of my many goals Scott. Just have to fly my young out and find out which are those HIT pairs.
Thus far I did breed 3 young out of one of my pair that were exceptional in the air. Lost all 3 of them to the bops but man were they spinning. I put down this same pair in hopes of getting the same results and being able to fly them out more to see what they can really do. I'm entering one of these young to the QSDC Invitational, hopefully it'll do what it's siblings were doing...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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bertie
140 posts
Mar 30, 2008
2:24 PM
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I had no choice. I bought my birds from a good breeder this winter and didn't want to risk losing any of my birds by flying them so now I am breeding them without flying them. I'll just have to wait and see which birds put out the best young and go from that.
I don't know if I ever dare fly any of my breeders now. I don't know if a year old bird that has never been flown will ever do anything in the air. Then another thing is I had one get out and he's still flying South after 2 weeks. Must be to Mexico by now.
Is this a case where you can do it?
Bert
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George R.
454 posts
Mar 30, 2008
2:31 PM
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Efren
I did not get those stats from our area and or Club. In case you forgot we fly all year around out here in Hell.
I visited many lofts in So Cal. before I moved away and I also would listen when I attended many shows where people were buying birds to breed from without ever seeing them fly.
the most famous qoute I heard was " dont fly them breed from them and fly the young".
Sorry thats not my thing . I believe in flying Birds out I dont care if its bred by a Person who won the World Cup 5 times in a row .
The Birds must prove themselves.
Like I always say it's a choice, I respect people's choices if they want to go around and buy birds of the perch, thats there choice.
I would rather pick them from the sky.
When I first started back with Rollers I made the same mistake of buying birds that I did not see Fly.
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elopez
903 posts
Mar 30, 2008
3:37 PM
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George,
That's right, I remember you saying that you don't have a bop issue. Keith mentioned to me that Marlon told him that he had a bad bop issue. Is he quite a distance from you? Sure would like to be flying around your area. Wouldn't get the losses I'm getting now.
So, are you saying that all of your breeders have proven themselves in the air? You have seen them all perform? If so I hope to be there one day but when I get there I would expect to be one of the top guys in the competitions because I would try to only stock the exceptional spinners so my percentages will be much higher and if I lose any kit birds I will always have another just as good to replace it.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 3:37 PM
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George R.
457 posts
Mar 30, 2008
3:58 PM
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Efren
I live about 20 miles from Marlon he does have a BOP issue at times as he is closer to the high rise casino s then me .
I live out by Lake Mead , I am surprised that I dont have a BOP issue since I am closest to the main water supply out here.
Just be cause a persons stock Birds are Flown out does not mean that they will be a Top flyer .
As you know weather, time, and common sence, can be just as big in issue as the BOP.
I know you got some good Birds in your loft. If I can give you any advise that would be to stop getting Birds and start working the Crap out of what you got in your loft.
Of course only when the skys are clear.( no BOP )
of course I dont know everything , but if I was a betting man , I would bet on you to take the SGVS fly Championship with the caliber of stock you got No Offence to your other members just my opinion.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 4:00 PM
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trevsta65
270 posts
Mar 30, 2008
4:26 PM
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if you spend thousands of dollars on importing birds from overseas your not going to risk flying them are you .so your going to breed from them without seeing what they can do and hope what you breed from them are something that you can continue to work with in improving what you have.
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cheers trev
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DeepSpinLofts
498 posts
Mar 30, 2008
5:23 PM
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Scott says:
=====> "find the key birds and start circling the wagons around them, and everything else is used as fosters.
That is how you move foward."
Hmm.... interesting.
QUESTION: Is that the way WH Pensom did it?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Scott
315 posts
Mar 30, 2008
5:47 PM
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Let me back up a little bit here, starting out you have no choice to breed out of unprooven birds.
Few are cutting loose of the cream of thier teams nor getting rid of prooven breeders, sure sure sure some will say they are but it is highly unlikely that they truely prooven breeders of quality birds in decent percentages, they are just too hard to find.
Once you start figuring out where you are then you have to learn what a good bird actualy is,and it isn't happening in a year or two.
Then once you start figuring things out you have to figure out what is producing the good one's , you find that most of the good ones are coming out of a bird or two, three if you are lucky, and it will take a few years to find them as they have to produce accross the board, this is your real start and the fun really begins.
I look to breed quality over quantity, anyone who keeps breeding unflown birds and you will have to breed quantity over quality and they will be all over the board,same if you take you eye off of the ball and start breeding for anything that isn't performance related,garbage in and garbage out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2008 6:52 PM
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Scott
316 posts
Mar 30, 2008
5:53 PM
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(QUESTION: Is that the way WH Pensom did it?)
Did he inbreed/linebreed ? that answer is yes
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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T Duncan
2 posts
Mar 30, 2008
8:57 PM
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Over the years People have given me birds witch I never flew and never seen fly. Some cocks have gone on every hen in my cage, some good some bad ones came out. The bad ones never go back that way again. Now over time I get less bad one. We all breed for what we like so if I were buying birds I would never fly away my money, so it best to start out the air so you can start with what you like. Terry
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elopez
904 posts
Mar 30, 2008
9:28 PM
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George,
I understand time being a big issue. I have the luxury of working from home most of the time, so I can take some time and fly my birds. I guess that's why I lost so many during the Hawk season... Maybe next time I'll go to my office so I won't be tempted to fly them during this time.
I agree, I am not getting anymore birds unless I feel it will help my program, but that bird comes in another got to go.
Thanks on the complements about me winning my club fly’s. I hope to do good this year, but we have some tough flyers in the club... it will be tough...but I'm game!
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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quickspin
479 posts
Mar 30, 2008
10:58 PM
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You never know what you will breed in till you breed them. Your best kit flyers might be your worst breeder and your decent roller might be a champion breeder. So how will you know which one to breed? You don't know so just breed what you have and what you can't replace and start from there. If you buy birds from a good source he will not sale junk in the first place. Buy from a good breeder that has been known to win or to have top birds.
All of us have to start and if we fly the birds that we purchase we might loose them and there goes are money. And right now I can't be flying money away. Now that is from the beggining of creating a family.
Ones you have the offspring you can pick straight from the air and pick the ones that last 2 years doing the same hard work. So you know that your birds will last and not just be good the first year and the next year be a rolldown.
Yes I have breeders that were not flown first and they have provided me with good offspring. Now I will fly the offspring and pick from the air.
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SALAS LOFT
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Ballrollers
1120 posts
Mar 31, 2008
2:08 PM
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Scott,
You said, "Sure you can get lucky here and there with unflown birds, but to move forward with any type of consistancy you must prove them out, and if you have been working the birds for more than a few years and are stocking unprooven birds then there is a problem, why would you need too ? "
I couldn't agree more. Breeding out of unflown birds is a dead-end road. But the question is, unflown by me? Or unflown by anyone? I know that, like the rest of us, you learned this the hard way. I remember the story you posted about high-dollar Neible birds that you bought that proved to be the most expensive fosters you ever owned. I presume they were unflown by you. You proved to yourself, again, like many of us have done, that the name of the family may not mean anything, nor the word of the guy who gives or sells them to you. It depends much more on the circumstances and how well you know the donor flyer more than the name of the family. Around here, guys are trading breeders around, quite often. Some are birds they saw in a guys comp kit that they want to breed from. Others are birds that they have seen what they are producing for a flyers comp kit. But sometimes they are taking the word of an experienced flyer and friend. If Jay, or Joe Bob, or Clay hand me a bird and tell me to breed from it, being from the same family, I certainly don't feel any need to fly it out. I know that I can take their word on it. There are several lofts in the country that I have seen fly, and know the men well enough to take their word on a bird that I have not seen fly. I have confidence in their word that they flew the bird and it has the goods. If I have not stood under a kit with them, I tend to be a bit more skeptical, however. There is always a question as to whether we have the same performance standards. I breed and fly a couple of side lines of families just for the sake of comparison of the performance under the same loft management and in the same geographical area, which I believe is the only way to make a true comparison of families.
That said, birds that I have not personally seen flown, still have a question mark on their breeding record until I have personally flown out their offspring on a couple of matings and know what they can produce. That is a work in progress in most any loft, I would say.
YITS,
Cliff
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Scott
320 posts
Mar 31, 2008
2:29 PM
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Cliff thats about it in a nut shell , myself I just don't bring birds in any longer as there is no need and I wouldn't know what to do with them if I did.
Although I do have a pair from Arnold Jackson, that were flown out by him, I took it at face value the same as I would from JoeBob, Kenny and a some others.
As for the Niebles, the hen flew in his last W/C fly and was out of his Teardrop hen, all I knew about the cock was he was out of one of his cock kits.
As mentioned here good stock birds don't always come out of good birds out of the air, but it does help narrow it down and you know the true charactor of the birds if flown out hard , the goal is to make that crap table much much smaller.
I might add that the closer the gene pool the easier to narrow it down, the loose gene birds that I have played with in the past seemed to hit all over the board.
Funny I was thinking about this unflown thing 3-4 mo ago when I was culling a weak bird out of my old foundation hen.
I was tempted to stock it unflown due to two from the same pair in the A team that I had lost but used my better judgment to put it in the kitbox, it coulnt hang, but stocked you wouldn't have known it, not exactly something I want floating around in the gene pool even if I did get a good one out of it, I want that kind of thing eliminated not buried,you cant eliminate it by breeding out of such birds
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2008 2:38 PM
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