rollerman132
4 posts
Oct 17, 2006
10:21 AM
|
Why do some families fly fast and become seldom (stiff)? Is it a fault in the family? could out crossing correct this problem?
Last Edited by rollerman132 on Oct 17, 2006 10:22 AM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
772 posts
Oct 17, 2006
12:01 PM
|
Fast flying and going stiff can be from not managing the birds. But there are some families which are more prone to want to fly fast, are high strung and have a lot of roll resistence. Personally I don't see the point in outcrossing them to a different family if you don't like the fast flying, etc. Just get rid of them and get a family or birds from a family which exhibit more of manageable traits you want to see. I had the same problem years ago. Started with birds bred around a special bird and it's heritage and while they spun fast (when they actually rolled), the flew fast, high and were high strung. The best decision I ever made was to kill my attachment to them and send them packing while replacing them with a few families that aren't so prone to the same behavior. It made the world of difference.
|
rollerman132
5 posts
Oct 17, 2006
3:58 PM
|
My family of birds are a little on the hot side. I was just wondering if it was possible to in prove a family of birds like the ones I mentioned. I have a friend who fly’s birds like that and refuses to cross his birds because they come from the old 514 sparks family.
Last Edited by rollerman132 on Oct 17, 2006 4:00 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
774 posts
Oct 17, 2006
4:34 PM
|
Scott or KGB would be the only two I know of that could accurately answer that question in regards to that family. Seems they have managed to secure at least some level of control over those factors to the point of doing well when it matters.
|
3757
86 posts
Oct 18, 2006
7:37 AM
|
Some birds can be improved and some cannot. You can exhaust the gene pool and lose strength etc. If you are happy with the performance but do not like the fast flying you can create a family within a family if the strength is still maintained and the gene has not been exhausted. This takes time and patients but it can be done. You can look for a bird within the same strain that posses the traits you desire and work around that bird if needed.
Also, Herb has other Pensom lines and you can use that into your birds if you do not want to go outside the family but it is all up to you and what you want. The easy route is to get a bird that has the trait you desire and create what you want.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:56 AM
|
motherlodelofts
917 posts
Oct 18, 2006
11:01 AM
|
With my birds once mature they must be handled properly, to rich of diet and a lot of fly time they will get strong on you and fly hard and fast.
The good one's will still roll and the kit will still break but just much shorter and more "flash" type breaks, they need a leaner diet, straight Wheat will slow them down after about 4 days , a lean mix will hold them there for quite a while.
Keep in mind that there is a lot of time and breeding from the originals, in other words , there is a lot of water under that bridge and just because they go back the same way doesn't mean they are the same , through selection I could ruin this family very quickly , if all he cared about was maintaining 514 blood (ped. breeding) then it's hard to say and a good chance of being stiffs no matter what.
long dead pigeons means little, it is what is sitting on the perches that are alive and kicking and that are good that matters.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 18, 2006 11:05 AM
|
rollerman132
6 posts
Oct 18, 2006
11:22 AM
|
I had no idea that herb had other lines. After reading an article that Tom Monson on Eason’s loft http://easonsloft.freeservers.com/photo5.html I thought that all his birds where like that, and only a few could fly them. In the article he states that it’s a fixed in the blood line. I guess what I’m trying to find out is, can something like that be undone with a cross or is it a waste of time? I’m not trying to put any ones family of birds down, just trying to understand.
|
dave
174 posts
Oct 18, 2006
11:43 AM
|
Pick the ones that fly slower, more frequent, flies lower... and breed from those. You will have to pick for what you like. It will take time though.
Last Edited by dave on Oct 18, 2006 11:44 AM
|
rollerman132
7 posts
Oct 18, 2006
1:49 PM
|
Scott, sounds like you figured out how to get the most out of that family. I read an article some where, that stated that it wasn’t a beginner’s blood line, now I know why. When I start hearing the word fixed, it made me wonder how fixed. If I were to take a bird from that family and cross it with one of my own how would they change genetically? Would the offspring be more like my family or would they retain most of the original families traits? Thanks guys, for all the help.
|
motherlodelofts
921 posts
Oct 19, 2006
12:52 AM
|
Rollerman, not sure I would call it "that" family although they go back to "that" family.
Stiffs are stiffs and are no fun, in fact in my book they are culls, hot birds are no fun either and they give people a false sense that they have something until they fall apart, won't kit or have little or no qaulity due to fighting the roll.
Kenny Billings found a few key birds that produced and then went with it, I in turn have done the same , I don't breed because of what is behind them , I breed towards what is producing.
I think that much of the stiffness of the old lines come from many breeding towards what is behind them rather than just honing around producers.
This holds true with many families , find what is producing on a fairly consistant basis with various mates and then hone around it , you are looking for birds that give you the entire package such as decent freq.,Qaulity and stability which takes in kitting and flying the time also.
I want birds that want to roll but are not controlled by the roll , I do not want birds that I have to make roll by starving down (stiffs) but I like birds that I can manipulate as far as qaulity and work rate due to it is a little easier to hit it when it counts and they tend to give those hard solid breaks if the team is right.
Hot birds tend to just do alot of unorganized half ass breaks with poor timing.
As for managing, all families need to be managed, even the hot one's ,just a different type of managment is all , most of which is knowing your birds and just useing common sence.
As for crossing, if you need to cross then you are probaby downbreeding something, my feelings is that if you need to cross than you need to cull them and start over with something better , expanded genepools just give you pigeons all over the board.
My family consists of two different lines that go back the same, if I need some fresh blood for either it is all ready in the loft, they are the same but just breed away differntly.
Hope this helps
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2006 1:07 AM
|
rollerman132
8 posts
Oct 19, 2006
9:35 AM
|
Good post Scott, I can see where a person could go wrong. Just because they go back to the same family doesn’t mean they are the same type of birds. You have opened my eyes, thanks.
|
J_Star
638 posts
Oct 19, 2006
10:19 AM
|
To me pedigree breeding is as bad as color breeding. Some fanciers are hung on the fact that their family goes back to some dead bird or birds such as 514, black rain, Pensom or others. Breeding should be based on performance only not pedigree or just for a specific color.
Although, each has his own, but there are many excellent families out there that are easy to work with and enhance able to take them one notch better each year. They say this family or that family is not for beginners. What is the difference? I look for a family that does not require rocket scientist to figure them out and manage them. I, myself, like easy maintenance in all I do. If it is not, I try to simplify it. But to fly stiffs because they are from 514 or what have you, is nothing more than wasted time, money and effort. There are allot of fanciers out there whom their family goes back to 514 and don’t exhibit stiffness nor being too hot. Maybe for your friend would be a worth while for him to get one of their proven hens and cross her back to his family to loosen them up a bit. That is only my opinion. Thanks.
Jay
|
JMUrbon
29 posts
Oct 19, 2006
5:23 PM
|
Good post Scott. I also believe that if you have to add another bllodline in yours to try to get something out you are taking the long rout. If you arent happy with the birds you have there are some great families of birds out there these days that are very easy to work with. ON another note and something I have always believed and is just what Jay mentioned in the last post. If they are high maintenence then get rid of them. They are wasting your time. There are to many other families that aren't high maintenence. Joe Urbon
|