bob
14 posts
Nov 01, 2006
2:35 PM
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Hi guys i appreciate all your input re best time to hatch but my main concern is hatched in the fall & not flown until Mar. or Apr. what are your thoughts ?
Thanks Bob
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nicksiders
816 posts
Nov 01, 2006
2:55 PM
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You are waiting too long. It will take much longer to get them to the level you need them to be if they get there at all, by delaying thier air time. Even the best bloodlines can be screwed up by mismanaging them and holding down the bird's developement is not the best way to manage them. You can fly in the winter months; many breeders fly year-round even with the occasional hawk attack (I have found that hawks can't catch'em everyday and they darn sure can't eat'em all.)
Train them to trap and get'em in the air on schedule; don't care when they are born.
Just my opinion and I reserve the right to change my mind.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Santandercol
385 posts
Nov 01, 2006
6:10 PM
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I tend to agree with you Nick.If your birds get attacked,make a hellofa racket,fire some rockets at the predator or if you can in your area 12gauge full choke.Otherwise lockem down couple days or 3 and try again.Fly em 2 or 3 days then break for a couple so the preds don't notice such a continuous pattern of fly times.Then next soon breeding season just breed a shitload of birds.And just hope you have more birds than the SOB's can eat.----------
Kelly
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JMUrbon
41 posts
Nov 01, 2006
7:22 PM
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Kelly,Nick. As much as I respect your opinions I dont feel that your advise on this matter is sound advise. You will not only loose most of the good birds but you will more than likely screw up any chance of the lucky ones from ever being any good. They will end up being fast fliers and always flying scared. I know Nick you have been flying rollers along time but so have I and I have seen this happen to more than my share of kits. I flew year round for nearly 20 years before I realized I was loosing the battle.Have a litle compasion for the birds Kelly. If you want to raise them just to feed the hawks in the winter than your chances of ever competing with a good holdover kit are dramaticly decreased.As managers we have got to do whatever we have to do to assure that the few great birds each year make it to see spring and if that means locking them up for the winter than so be it. That doesnt mean that you dont fly the others but as soon as you see them comming in than pull them to.
Getting back to the original thread I do agree with Nick that it will probably be to late for those young. I have locked them down after only a couple weeks in the air and put them out in the spring with very little affect on the birds development other than a few monthes behind. But at least they were given the chance to develope. Just my opinion though. Joe Urbon
Last Edited by JMUrbon on Nov 01, 2006 7:24 PM
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JMUrbon
42 posts
Nov 01, 2006
7:28 PM
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Nick I reread you post and I apologize to you for my last post. I see were you were going with it and was actually not bad advise just needed to reread it.Joe
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Santandercol
386 posts
Nov 01, 2006
8:51 PM
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Joe,
With all respect,And just my humble opinion,My idea is to at least give the birds a chance to develop as much as possible till the hawks just get unbearably destructive.Keeping them from flying at all until march or april they would be a waste anyways.I don't claim to be all that knowledgable in the subject of flying rollers,but it just seems like common sense to me.
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Kelly
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J_Star
646 posts
Nov 02, 2006
4:38 AM
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I, for one, agree with Joe on this one. I have seen hawks destruction in the winter time. If you think hawks are bad this time of year, wait tell winter sets in. They become professional killers.
It is a mistake in the first place to breed this time of year, but since it is already done you have two choices. Either to save the birds by locking them or take a chance and fly them. What would happen is you won't loose just one youngster when a hawk attacks but many. Some will fly away and never return.
My advise to you is to lock the birds tell spring. It will take them about 8 weeks to develop then. Good luck.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Nov 02, 2006 4:38 AM
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Santandercol
387 posts
Nov 02, 2006
5:41 AM
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OK,OK,maybe I'm wrong,but still flying my birds till the preds get too bad.
Yours in the Sport,
Kel.
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STARFIRE
58 posts
Nov 03, 2006
11:57 AM
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Hi Kelly;
I wanted to give you a bit of advice,about flying the latebred birds.I understand that you have Neible and Barret birds.I have seen these Barret birds since they were imported in the late 70's.I have yet to see one that can compare to a good Pensom strain roller.The good ones are at best a fast roller.They don't ball up and they are too short.and sloppy.The only thing I can see in them is their frequency.You should keep the Neible(Pensom)young birds and breed them.Keep them in.Fly the Barret birds and let the hawks eat them,you'll be better off.Fly them on different days and times if you can,to keep the hawks confused.Look at what the W.F judge says about the Barret birds in the report from Ontario.Theses guys All fly Barret birds in the T.F.R.C. Stan Arnold
STARFIRE
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motherlodelofts
928 posts
Nov 03, 2006
2:41 PM
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Stan, you crossed in a Tumbler type breed for crests and you want to slam someone elses birds ? Bullshit
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 03, 2006 3:32 PM
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Santandercol
389 posts
Nov 03, 2006
8:29 PM
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Hey Stan,
That's some pretty tough advice yer handing out there.'Specially since ya haven't even seen my birds fly.Nothing short about these birds and they come into the roll early.After 4 months,they're quite tight and snap out of the spin pretty darn good.Next season,I want to raise a whole kit of them Barretts and fly them separate from my Neible birds,just because they develop at an earlier age and I think the Neible birds hold their development back a little.I've lost 1 bird to hawk in the last month or more.Long as I don't fly 'em regular day after day,and let them take a break,the preds are not so bad here YET.
Yeah,,,so,,,anyhow,what I'm trying to say is maybe you shouldn't dis my birds until you see them fly.And you're welcome to drop by anytime,just let me know you are coming.
250-247-8375.
Later,
Kelly Waugh.
Last Edited by Santandercol on Nov 03, 2006 8:31 PM
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STARFIRE
59 posts
Nov 04, 2006
1:04 PM
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Hey Scott;
The first thing you do is slam my crested birds and in the same breath you say I shouldn't slam the Barret birds.Whats going on .Do you have a monopoly on slamming?
Are you the only one that is allowed to discredit anyone you want?Same old Scott.You are the one that is full of crap and don't know what your talking about as usual.I'm
giving advice from my 30 years of watching the Barret birds.I haven't seen one that I would put in my breeding loft.Barret birds are late coming into the roll and they dont roll more than 20 ft at most.If you have Barret birds that are rolling at 4 months and going more than 20 ft,they have been crossed into another family.You can believe it or not.I have a right to voice my opinion weather you like it or not.===Stan Arnold==
P.S, I'm going to stop posting on this site,theres no sense in butting heads with morons like Scott.
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sundance
21 posts
Nov 04, 2006
1:07 PM
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Hi fellas,
So let me get this straight... If I fly young birds till they start to develope, even at the first signs, and then pull them into the loft till spring, they will still develope ok when I put them back out?
I been wondering this myself a lot lately cause this year I too bred some too long and still got some young not developing yet. I plan to fly till the hawks or the weather get too bad and hope for the best. I sure dont want to feed them to the enemy. If I am following you guys right , I think I will go ahead and put the ones that have started to develope into the loft till spring.
The rest will fly till they develope or get attacked? If they are not developed at all they would be a lost cause either way. That sounds cruel, but is it right??
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motherlodelofts
930 posts
Nov 04, 2006
1:23 PM
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Stan do you remember a visit by Ron Kumro and Bill Watson some years ago , Bill was telling me a funny story about a guy up in Canada and crested roller crosses .
According to him this guy even showed him what he was crossing in after he wouldn't let up how obvious the cross was , also according to him this guy told him that he didn't want others around there to know that he was doing it , when he told me who it was I about fell out of my chair LOL.
Stan he didn't even know that I knew who you were and this all came up in general converstation , it is a small small world isn't it.
The worst part is that you aren't alone in such practices and hiding the truth and passing them off as something they aren't , just another mongralizer of the breed.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 04, 2006 1:54 PM
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Santandercol
390 posts
Nov 04, 2006
2:33 PM
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Jeeesshh,
You guys,come on now,don't get your tiities in a tangle here!!It ain't worth it atall atall atall.All this vibes across tousands a miles.Muddafire.Stan my man,you could be right,in fact!!!,,there is some pensom blood waaayyyy back with this pair of so called Barretts I'm breeding.The hen is a black baldy,and the cock is grey bearded with white flights and white tail.He's probably the one with the Neibles crossed into him.All I know for sure is their offspring ALL roll like stink and early,I like 'em and they give my freinds a chuckle too.
Definately it don't do anybody any good when we keep taking shots at each other.That's how wars are started.If we all could just accept each other for the way we are(starting right here at home)maybe the damn arms manufacturers wouldn't have such a thriving business.
Peace love and beads and I'll burn one in your honour!!
Kel
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Santandercol
391 posts
Nov 04, 2006
2:42 PM
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Sundance,
Howsitgoin there??Yeah,my personal opinion is I would fly them for now.It's not cruel,it's called animal husbandry.Sometimes it's tough.I hate culling birds but often times they would suffer more if you left them be.Regarding the moment to lockdown your birds,it just depends how bad the preds are where you live.Wish for luck whenever you get a chance and keep your fingers,legs,toes and arms crossed when your birds are in the air till they trap in!!Cheers,
Kellinos.
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sundance
26 posts
Nov 05, 2006
6:03 AM
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thanks Kel,
Last year I locked up a little early, but I also culled a little too hard. This year I almost didnt have anything to fly except young, and I got a late start at that. This year I bred a little longer that I should have to make sure I had birds to fly and plenty for next spring as holdovers.
SOOO... I`ll take your advise and lock up at the first sign the hawks are honed into me.
sundance
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Santandercol
393 posts
Nov 05, 2006
6:26 AM
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Sunny,
I'm about ready to admit defeat here and lock my birds down.I'm in a bit of a dilemma as I also have a kit of birds born in July late which are just starting to flip,tailride and some short spins.All Neible birds.Yesterday afternoon the wind and rain let up and the sun came out so decided to fly them.That damn coopers showed up and attacked about 8 times without success but I went through 4 5 shot roman candles trying to chase him off.My neighbours think I'm nuts.I think they may be correct.Dinner was ready and it was almost dark and I was still out there whistling and calling them in.23 out of 25 made it in and I know the other 2 are out there somewhere,Just hope they're not injured and make it home today.I hate to stop flying them now because that is why I have them.I've come from having 8 mutt birds and show racers last February to having 88 (10 pure white racers and 78 BR's) in 8 months with 3 pairs of good breeders and a bunch of fosters ready for January breeding program.So I can't complain.Curious where you are located Sundance??Most folks on this site never fill in the user profile when they register which is a shame because ya can't see where they are talking from.
Yours in the Sport,
Kel.
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Brian_Middaugh
1 post
Nov 05, 2006
4:58 PM
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My own experience,
A few years back I thought I would heat my loft. Because in Feb. it would be below zero for a few weeks and I would get a big head start on the birds. Well I paired the birds together around Oct. And had my first round out by Thanksgiving. I kept them up never even had them trap ready. So along came April 1st. I started getting them in the settling cages. Got them trapping and used to the place. So I finally got them on the roof without being scared up. A few days later I finally got them in the air. Man I'm telling you they were strong and ready to fly. I mean they were all over the sky. And I thought that within a few weeks I would have them kittling like always. To my suprise they never started kitting. I mean 4, 5, 6 weeks and never had anything take as long to start to kit. Well it took about 9 to 10 weeks before they started kitting. And when they did kit some birds would fly through the breaks because they were too strong. Some flew faster and some would fly slower. I told myself then I would never do that again. It was more work than it was worth. And all the time I wasted on them I could have had a few good birds up by then. Now I believe you can get birds that have been on the wing and have been rolling pretty good and lock them up for winter and get them out the following year and it takes little time to get them back on schedule.
Now if you turn your young birds out during the winter with hawks around. Well you are going to loose big time. Your going to loose more than just your birds. You are going to loose any information about the birds you are flying. I mean anything that will help you out when it comes to breeding the following year. You going to get your young birds flying in a pattern that is in the defensive mode. I mean once they keep getting hit they are going to keep looking for the sharks. And fly in a pattern that isn't there norm. And when you loose a bird to the shark you are loosing the feed you had fed that young birds for the past 10 weeks or so. And all your time you have put into it. Now if you can fly once every two weeks or so during the winter at different times. And not allowing the sharks to snag a easy lunch. You might have good luck getting some birds up during the winter.
These are just my opinions and my experiences.
See as you see fit with them.
Best of luck Brian Middaugh
Last Edited by Brian_Middaugh on Nov 05, 2006 5:03 PM
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Ballrollers
477 posts
Nov 06, 2006
3:20 PM
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Guys,
I don't think there is a single answer that adequately covers everyone's situation. There is not much doubt that birds that are bred now and locked down for the winter will never roll to their genentic potential, and probably won't perform as a kit worth a darn, as Brian has described.
On the other hand, some of us are able to breed and fly year 'round with a minimum of problems. My brother and I are flying out 10 kits of birds and have only the occasional hawk attack; and no falcons. We live in the country, where the Coopers have to cross open pasture and dodge a lot of lead to get to the pigeons. We lose the occaisional bird when we are not paying attention, but it's very manageable. I stop breeding more to give the breeders a break, but I will play with some experimental matings and click pairs. At this time of year, I like to raise a few rounds off of my top young birds put back on their opposite sex parent to preserve the genes in case the bird is lost for any reason as I continue to fly them into maturation. So if your predator problem is manageable and your weather is good....breed on! I realize that not many lofts will fall into that situation, however.
JMHO.
Cliff
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Santandercol
395 posts
Nov 06, 2006
5:33 PM
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Yeah,,,if only I could use a Real firestick around here.Roman Candles just don't always cut it.
Kelly
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Alohazona
200 posts
Nov 06, 2006
5:46 PM
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Cliff,
Flying out 10 kits,whew!!,and I thought I was busy with my birds.Where do you find the time,LOL...Aloha,Todd
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Brian_Middaugh
2 posts
Nov 06, 2006
6:10 PM
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Cliff,
Exactly there isn't one way to do anything we do with these birds. Every one has a different circumstances on how they should do thing. I know when I was working in Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina. That would be the perfect place for me when it comes to raising and flying rollers. In my eyes it didn't get any better down there!!!! beautiful and the weather was perfect.
Cliff what is the weather like there in your area of the Carolina's. Do you get that killing freeze in Feb. You know when it never gets warmer than 10 degrees below zero during the day for a high. For a few weeks? do you get that over night snow storm that can dump up to 30" of snow over night? Or that Ice storm that can be 2" thich on everything outside? Man Mississippi is calling my name really bad LOL LOL. I know when I came back home in Feb of this year. I left down there with a Tee-shirt on and the windows down and when I got home it was a warm 19 degrees.
Around here there isn't what you call open fields. I have 4 other valleys that open up in front of my house. But I do have a nice view of the Ohio River. And the trees!!!! LOL LOL I wouldn't trade it for nothing its home.
But back to this roller topic. A person has to try and see what works for them. Because we can give them our opinion but we don't really know what each and every one is faced with. Right now I work from Daylight to dark. So I can only fly on the weekends. I do pull my better working birds out of the kit when I fly in the winter. But I make sure that any bird that I put up has had plenty of time in the air. I fear of loosing it!
best of luck
Brian Middaugh
Portsmouth, Ohio
http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com
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Ballrollers
478 posts
Nov 06, 2006
6:42 PM
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Todd....Notice, I said, "My brother and I..." between the two of us, we alternate kits..it's not too bad.
Brian....Carolina winters are mild...lot's of 60+ degree days in December and January. February is 30s and 40s; occaisional ice storms when temps are around freezing and it rains....little snow.....Last year, I don't think I had to break ice in the water founts one time!! Now that's weather to breed rollers in! LOL! Remember, I was raised in Canton, Ohio; went to school at Kent State and Ohio State; so I can tell you about Ohio winters...about 25 of them, anyway. Hey, I've even been in Portsmouth, too, buddy...some uncles and cousins on my mom's side from Kentucky....by the last name of Harr. Haven't seen 'em in years, though. Sorry to ramble guys!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 06, 2006 6:43 PM
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CooCoo
19 posts
Nov 07, 2006
2:32 PM
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Starfire........that was not a nice way to run down us guys from Ontario with our barret rollers.......i enjoy my birds very very much,,,, thank you.......for your unintelligent opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,Dave
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