JMHD
8 posts
Nov 10, 2006
9:30 PM
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Just wondering how many and how often has anyone witnessed a full turn? We had our club fly last week and i had a full turn first time for me in my years of flying.
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W@yne
18 posts
Nov 10, 2006
10:27 PM
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Jmhd.
Ive never seen a full turn nor i dont think i will ever see 1,In England birds have to roll in perfect style each and every one of them or they will never be counted on the score sheet,Ive seen 20 birds break in the kit but 15 birds is probly the most ive ever seen the other 5 birds wasnt scoreable lacking quality or coming out of the roll the wrong way but to even get 15 birds rolling correctly is breathtaking.If you have birds that break in 20 in good style Jmhd you have some very special birds.Also the judges over here seem a lot more strict than some of your judges over there hence some of the scores ive seen although i know there are good judges from the us. Jmhd good luck in your hobby and best wishes to all the guys in this wonderfull sport.
regards W@yne UK
Last Edited by W@yne on Nov 11, 2006 5:11 AM
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motherlodelofts
934 posts
Nov 10, 2006
10:34 PM
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I'm with Wayne, something always holds back and the qaulity isn't there to count it,or timing , depth or something but then on the other hand with some of the crappy score anything judging I have seen it sure makes it possible if the standard is low enough , just very unlikely with what I am looking for when judging.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 11, 2006 12:12 PM
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nicksiders
832 posts
Nov 11, 2006
8:50 AM
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Never saw and I have never heard of a complete scorable fullturn. It seems atleast one bird comes out of the roll flying the wrong direction; not enough scorable depth; plate rolls; twizzles; or something. I have had them all break at same time, but not all of them had scorable rolls. This does not mean it has never happened; just that it has never happened with me standing under the birds and none of the breeders I know have had one happen.
Congratulations! You had better write that date down somewhere! You may never see it happen again. It is a marvelous event.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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JMHD
9 posts
Nov 11, 2006
9:45 AM
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Thanks guys for your input i agree with you that is hard to do when it happen it was a suprise. there was no doubt on the depth as that team had a 1.7 depth 1.5 quality for the NBRC fall fly prelims and this club fly 1.7 depth and 1.7 quality total points for that day was 1418.99 so there was alot of big breaks it was a good day for me.
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fhtfire
621 posts
Nov 11, 2006
10:23 AM
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I have seen full turns in my birds before when they are on a real good day and there are no witnesses....LOL!!! Like Scott says....you will always seem to have a bird or two that tries to hold up or is a little late on the draw. But saying it will never happen is CRAP...everything can happen. A full turn is all the birds dropping...of course you can't see every bird roll...that is humanly impossible...so you have to use your best judgement...if I see the birds that my eye catch do it with great quality, speed in depth...they are getting the turn...but if my eye happens to catch those three or 4 birds that are not up to par....they will not get a full turn....Again...it is up to the judge...and it is the birds that catch your eye that you use to give your points..
I do not know if Tony remembers..but Eddie Verdugo in L.A. had a full turn while we were watching his birds....I thought it was a scoreable turn. Anyway..I have seen it...and of course...they are rare....but everybodys birds can be on.....on any given Sunday....Just like when the Raiders win a game...pure luck on that Given SUnday..LOL!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Mongrel Lofts
212 posts
Nov 11, 2006
10:38 AM
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I'm with Wayne and Scott.. Under the old competition tumbler rules, when all the birds break together, no matter the quality of roll, its a scored full turn.. We fly and compete with the Birmingham roller standard.. That standard is much greater than that of tumbler and backyard breeders.. I have never seen a full turn of all 20 birds rolling correct and true like a birmingham roller.. No short workers, no wing switching, no coming out sloppy, no coming out flying away from the kit, no slow rolling or wings out style.. I'm sure it can happen but with the thousands of kits I have watched over the years on an almost daily basis, I have never seen one I would record on a score sheet.. Just my honest opinion.. KGB
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Nov 11, 2006 12:04 PM
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birdman
224 posts
Nov 11, 2006
8:20 PM
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I was thinking about full turns the other day right after witnessing what appeared to be every bird in my kit going off on the break. I've seen it many times before.
Was it a full turn? No
Was every bird doing something? Yes, but in reality I would say that only 10 would have been scoreable. The rest were active but it was more CONFUSION than anything. And besides, there's no possible way my eyes could track 20 birds and tell you that every bird was scoreable.
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
791 posts
Nov 11, 2006
10:30 PM
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I've seen um. Seen them numerous times here, usually just before my kit rolls their asses off right out of sight to the east, most of which never come back.
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JMHD
10 posts
Nov 11, 2006
11:12 PM
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By no means did i post this to prop my birds in any way they were judged by an outside judge not by club members. I also don't think that the UK has stricter judges than here in the USA. The fly turned out how it did it is what it is.
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RollerJoe
1 post
Nov 12, 2006
2:24 AM
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I'm suprised you guys have never seen a full turn my birds do it regular your more than welcome to come and watch.
Joe
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
792 posts
Nov 12, 2006
8:00 AM
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Joe, some people are just too pessimistic when it comes to this subject and will ALWAYS be heard giving you a reason why a break wasn't as big as it was, even if was was truly legit. Just the way it works in this hobby.
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motherlodelofts
935 posts
Nov 12, 2006
8:02 AM
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Where do you live Joe ? man you guys must have the birds , I'm happy for you all, guys like Kenny Billings, Wayne , Nick and myself must be just spinning our wheels.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 12, 2006 8:35 AM
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nicksiders
836 posts
Nov 12, 2006
8:10 AM
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Joe,
Where do you live? I would be willing to travel to see a kit that does a scoreable turn often.
I think most of us are similar to Russ' experience. All the birds will all be involved in an activity simontianiuosly(sp) but not all of it will be scored.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Mongrel Lofts
213 posts
Nov 13, 2006
7:08 AM
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I only have the one question for all you full turn guys.. How many full turns have any of you scored in world cup or National fly's? Have any of you ever scored a full turn or had the judge of one of the major fly's give you a full turn in competition?? Must be another backyard breeder thing.. If anyone regularly got real full turns, winning the WC would be a cake walk.. That is the thing about talk and the back yard,, Its really easy to spin a good yarn!! When I'm in my back yard all alone, my kit does full turns, 2 times a minute! Every bird drops 50 foot.. Rolling so fast they look like liquid ball bearings going into hyper velocity.. The best ones vaporize into shrinking nothingness and then re-appear when they pull out.. Smoke rising off the feathers from the heat of true hyper velocity spinning! What???? I'm surprised you guys don't see this all the time like I do!! LOL I mean if your going to spin a YARN, you might as well spin a good one!!! LOL KGB
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Nov 13, 2006 7:11 AM
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RollerJoe
2 posts
Nov 13, 2006
7:52 AM
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Sounds like you got some good birds there KGB its a wonder you have never won the world cup or even come close to it.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
793 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:21 AM
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Don't sweat um Joe. The post above yours is a great example of the pessimistic opinions that you will always have to face any time this topic is brought up. You will never make pessimists happy, nor will you ever win an arguement from them.
Kenny, To my knowledge there has never been a full turn awarded in major competitions, both qualifying and finals. (if someone can point me to score records that indicate different, I am anxious to see it) I have personally seen two full turns that were about as legit, in your face full turns as you would expect to see in a competition. Both flyers recieved 18 for the break, but both judges said later they could have and probably should have given them the full turn because it was that close. Judges concerned with their integrity (especially given the attitude about scoring abuse by (cough, cough) some guys) will never give it, even if the Almighty himself made each bird roll perfect.
I am middle of the road on what I see and what I expect. I scrutinize my birds more than I give them praise. I want to see precision and anything less borders on embarassing in my opinion. I have had several kits that when in that 'week of peek' would give you two or three full blown, snap on a dime full turns. The day I lost my young team last year after the qualifer (the hit peek) their were 23 birds in that kit and three different times, right there over the house, they dumped every friggin bird rolling right. Three times. This was the day I lost that kit, half never to be seen again.
If I can ever figure out how to time these damn kits to be on point on fly day, you will see a kit with my name on it get more than their highest scored of a 16. Whenever I get them right again, you are more than welcome to bring your ass down here and park it on my patio and see for yourself. Maybe you will see a show. Maybe I'll be dissapointed. You have to believe it can be done rather than preach that it can't. Don't be a pessimist, be an optimist. You'll live longer.
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JMHD
12 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:43 AM
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Mongrel to answer your question same you none. it was the second fly club fly of the year. And what's up with the you guys deal? And aint no back yard flying here baby straight compition level i asked club president Donny Faison what he thought of it and his reply was it was clean 1 bird was 10' the rest went deep Willie Wright also club member said the same thing. I'm not claiming that this is a regular thing for me it just happened. I wanted to see what other flyers thought and the best post i got was Paul Fullerton's. I had asked Brian McCormick to judge but he was unable. Maybe he can do it later in the year? As we fly from Oct to June the club members mentioned are reputable flyers.
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nicksiders
839 posts
Nov 13, 2006
11:08 AM
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RollerJoe,
KGB has came close on more than one occasion...look at the WC results over the years.
We are not disputing your claim. It is all about the fullturn being fully scorable. In WC compitition there has never been a fully scored fullturn and those kits are world class. So you can see where the critisism or skepticism is coming from.
Okay my friend?
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Mongrel Lofts
215 posts
Nov 13, 2006
2:13 PM
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Hey BMC,
I'm not saying a full turn can't happen.. If you believe you have had two or three back to back full turns that were legit.. Hey that kit flew away and who could dispute that claim.. Not me!! {YARN} LOL I have had several 17 and 18 bird breaks scored during competition, man if I would have had an optimistic judge,, well I can only dream.. I agree BMC about don't worry be happy.. Just easier for me to be happy in reality..
Being optimistic means to be hopeful..I'm hopeful that one day I too can get a legit full turn.. But the reality is, the chances of getting 20 individuals to do it right for 20 or more feet at the same time without having some of the individuals off on the roll is a very rare event.. To stand on the edge of a cliff and say,, I'm an optimist,, a positive thinker!! I can fly, I can fly.. OK then jump!!
Just because you think positive about it, don't make it REALITY!! A guy who thinks like I do,, would say the reality is, I can't fly and I wouldn't jump off that cliff.. Just call me a pessimist if you have to.. Personally, I prefer realistic thinker.. From a pessimistic point of view anyway!! LOL KGB
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
797 posts
Nov 13, 2006
2:30 PM
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Being naive is one thing, being pessimitic is another.
Rock on Kenny, rock on! :)
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fhtfire
624 posts
Nov 13, 2006
5:19 PM
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This kind of reminds me of a guy in our fire station. He is our DMV instructor..he basically checks us off so that we can get our firefighter Class B drivers license. He has said in his own words that he would never give 100% on a driving test because it would look bad...like he was not paying attention or would make people think he was giving away high scores.
Kind of sounds the same....would not give a full turn...because people would not believe it...or there is no way they are all doing it. I am not a backyard flier...and second...I agree..they do not happen every day...but I have seen it a couple times in my birds...when they were ON...I have seen it a couple times in others peoples birds....did I see every bird...NO I DID Not...humanly impossible...but I did not witness birds not doing it either..those birds(that are haveing issues) stick out in my head... from me constantly looking for birds that are not doing it as much as birds that are...in my own teams.
A lot of judging is gut instinct and "I guesstamets"...I have seen it to many times...a judge yell out 10 and there were only 6 or 6 and there were 10...I know quality and I know depth and speed...I have seen it in Scotts birds, Joe Urbons, Tony's, Chuck Roe's and the list goes on...It just seems to me that it depends on a lot of things...if a team has been smoking and they are "ON" and they have been doing it in every way and I see the team break and every bird drops....then they will get a full turn..if my naked eye does not see one come out the wrong way or what have you...but If I have seen a kit doing a good job but a couple of birds have had OK quality or issues during they fly..then common sense will tell me that if they all drop...those same problem birds...I will be looking for and I will catch...and they will not get a full turn....I hope that makes sense...it depends on how the kit has been doing the whole fly...depth and quality wise...as well as working as a team....because...NOBODY can target 20 birds with the human eye....not even 10 birds...you just can't do it...but your experience and instinct will tell you if they were good or bad....If you witness the birds that you see smoke and drop and your eyes catch the other birds snap and return..you will give a good score..but if you see that one bird do something retarded...you will deduct...a lot of it is feel and how the birds are doing or you feel they are doing....
Using National comps is not a way to judge if a full turn is for real or not...come on Mongrel...you can't say..well those 2 flies out your 200 times you fly your birds...proves that you can't get a full turn..judging ones birds twice a year is not legite in saying a full turn can or can't happen...I have seen fliers birds smoke..and then not do good on fly day...use Scott's fly score....I have stood under his kits and they would whoop any kit in the world on the day I was there...but then on one day...his score is low...that is just and OH SHIT day and nothing else. Anyway...That is my two cents....I agree that they are few and far in between...and I agree that I have seen it and I believe that Brian did with his birds...most comp fliers are very hard on there own birds...anyway...I hope I explained myself without offending..that is not my style...so Don't take anything our of context.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
937 posts
Nov 13, 2006
9:45 PM
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Yes you can "target" them Paul, the better the kit qaulity wise the easier it is to "target" them , birds that are rolling "off" catch your eye like a bent rim going down the road, as for this full turn stuff, no it aint happening except for in those backyards with less of a critical eye and or being lenient on the timing (both normaly go hand in hand).
I think that timing alone makes it darn near impossible, you gotta keep it realistic or you'll settle for less.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 13, 2006 9:52 PM
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motherlodelofts
938 posts
Nov 13, 2006
9:54 PM
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"Sounds like you got some good birds there KGB its a wonder you have never won the world cup or even come close to it."
Joe next time do your homework before making such statements.
Scott
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fhtfire
626 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:11 PM
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Scott,
That is exactly what I said...that if a bird is off you will see it. I can pick out the crap bird at a drop of the hat..it just sticks out like a sore thumb. That is my whole point..if every bird drops in the kit and you do not see that sore thumb stick out...are you going to award the kit a full turn. I believe you will because you take this sport very serious and quality is very big with you...and I agree. I am just saying that a full turn can happen...and my birds have done it a couple times....and I did not notice one sore thumb sticking out...I have no problem saying...15 birds dropped or 18 birds dropped...but it can happen...did it happen on comp day..no...were there people around...well Steve Bills was there on the one occasion...and the other it was just me..but I have nothing to prove by saying it....but I think you know me enough that I will not bull shit you...just like if you said that you seen one...I would say you did....because I know you personally. Like I said...I agree a full turn is rare...I have had two out of maybe 500 or more times putting my teams up...that is very small odds. I am hard on my birds just like most....I mean...who has helped me out and told me what to look for in a quality roll...you my brother..LOL!!
I am picking your brain here Scott....answer these questions for my...Do you believe that a team could do a full turn.....if you were judging and a kit was just doing it in every way and every bird drops and your keen eye does not see one bent hub cap rolling...would you give the full turn. If no to any of the questions...I would just like to know why....you know they used to say that a Drag car would never do the 1/4 mile in less then 5 seconds...I remember the day that the time board flashed 4.99 seconds...
I believe that a kit that is ON can do a full turn...if they are good birds with a good manager and they are peaking and weather and everything is right. No disrespect to anybody with my posts...I am just fishing here to try and learn a thing or two
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Nov 13, 2006 10:13 PM
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W@yne
19 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:12 PM
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I know one thing and that a full turn as never happened in any major fly in uk even at club level ive never heard of a full turn happening i am not saying it wont happen but l am not saying it will also.Lets get this straight to get 20 rollers break at the click of your fingers in good style the timing as to be perfect .You may have 20 birds great rollers but great birds might roll 6 or 7 great rolls then throw a not so good roll and so on it does happen you might get one bird hitting another in the kit that would be two birds out straight away ,you might get birds coming out of the roll the wrong way ,birds lacking their own stanard of roll to get 20 birds rolling to there best at the click of a finger the law of averages is virtually impossible just my opinion but miricles happen. Im with Ken and Scott here and the rest of you out there in a proper land that dont live with the cuckoos
that watch and observe your birds the way i do with mine.Someone needs to educate and teach these point happy judges over there and show them where they are going wrong it gives flyers over there a false impression of their birds Just my opinion. :-)
regards W@YNE Uk
Last Edited by W@yne on Nov 14, 2006 10:13 PM
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fhtfire
627 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:28 PM
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Wayne with all do respect.....I am curious here...so are you telling me that I am a backyard flier...that I am not hard on my birds and judge them like you Ken and Scott....I beg to differ....I am very hard on my birds...Anybody who know me and has seen my birds fly..know that I am very serious about this sport..I have culled birds that many would love to have....If a bird is not doing it in my team...it gets demoted...if still not....it is on the BBQ. I take quality, depth and speed very seriously and this hobby very seriously...Have you stood underneath my kit or seen how I manage my birds...lots have on this list and the ones who know me..know how I am about rollers....So I guess I am not up to your standards of judging quality...
An opinion is just that...an opinion..and there are a lot of people in this world that said the USA hockey would never beat the Russians, The 70 home runs is unheard of, That the speed of sound would never be broken, that cars would run on a computer, that a sprinter could run as fast as someone on a bike....these are little athletes...we brag about our little athletes...just like we do our human athletes and things that people say would never happen...well they happen...nobody thought a pigeon would deliver a message in WW2 with a bullet hole through its breast..but it did...the fact is...if you think about it...it can happen..Hey...I have NEVER had a team come down early on a comp or any fly and I just DQed in the Fall Fly finals..if you would have asked me before I let them out that I would DQ..I would said you were nuts...anything can happen and could happen...even a FULL TURN!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
801 posts
Nov 13, 2006
11:03 PM
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Paul, its like talking to walls...lol. Forget about it. Some people, though I respect their freedom to have an opinion, are often always looking to keep something from happening. Boat anchors. They will never concede to seeing a full turn and will mock you as if you have no clue what you are talking about, don't know what you are looking at and even worse, probably cut a flyer short on a legit break, just to make their point. But that's is okay, if on that day they are the judge, its their call. But I can't help but feel sorry for people who are so confined to a small, dark box that they don't even realize it zapps the joy right from out beneath their noses. Generally what happens is when a kit is on real good, the "high and mighty protectors of all that is pure and holy about the Birmingham Roller" will do one of two things: either show their true spirit and award what should be awarded, even if it is a full turn....or...., and this is just plain nuts....is to subconsciously by virtue of their bitterness towards anything that extends beyond what they consider acceptable...is to actually raise the bar of performance during the fly so to constitute NOT awarding what should be awarded. Remember, all they have to do is roll more than 10 feet, break together and roll adequately with no glaring faults. The same judge will score average birds in a small break, but will make an excuse on a larger one if given the opportunity.
Just laugh it off guys...I see another "us" versus "them" theme being born from this.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Nov 13, 2006 11:04 PM
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
61 posts
Nov 14, 2006
6:59 AM
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Hey Paul,
I'm with you on this one " We can make anything happen that we want to, we are in control."
Planet Rock Lofts
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knaylor
296 posts
Nov 14, 2006
7:00 AM
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Full Turn??? I have never seen it but would like to. If i seen one and was judging you bet I would score it. If it was close would I give it to them just because NO WAY. To me on big breaks you probably cant see what every bird is doing the whole time but what stands out is the birds that are different. that would be the birds that are slop. When I am judging i am never focused on just a couple of birds. If I was I would never get it right even on small breaks. I also know that we all differ on what we think is a scorable roll. We would probably descibe the same thing on what it should be but in reality we would see something different in the air. I am not saying that no one has seen one but just remember not everyone sees the same. I dont know anyone personally that wouldnt score a full turn just because.
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bman
85 posts
Nov 14, 2006
9:42 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like when judging they are looking more for the birds that won't score than at the quality of those that do.
That is the impression I'm getting from most of the posts?????????????????????????????????----------
Ron
Last Edited by bman on Nov 14, 2006 10:58 AM
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J_Star
664 posts
Nov 14, 2006
10:25 AM
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In my opinion and if I was judging, I would score the full turn if all the birds break and gave the impression, the appearance and the elusion that is an excellent break disregarding the one or the two who were of mediocre performers. To get all the birds to break in unison is something to be treasured and respected whether it is at a backyard or competition performance. For those who always have to look the not so great of performers in a kit to take a way from the excellent performers are expecting the unexpected from those creatures and in other words if the kit does not consist of the top of the top in the world then it is a waste of time. Remember that even your top performers on some days they are not so great for one reason or another.
Jay
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knaylor
297 posts
Nov 14, 2006
10:36 AM
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JSTAR, so you are saying that you would score a bird even if it doesnt meet the standards of a scorable roll if you have seen it roll nice before? To me if you can clearly see that a bird doent meet the standard on a rool it should NOT be scored on that roll.
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J_Star
665 posts
Nov 14, 2006
11:48 AM
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No, what I am saying is what the eye see collectively. If the turn is outstanding to the eye then it should be scored in my opinion. Remember that what you see is totally different than what I see and what others might see. You will know of a quality break when you see one. And the same is true when you see a bad and slopy break.
Jay
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knaylor
298 posts
Nov 14, 2006
12:28 PM
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I know what you are saying JStar, its just I didnt understand what you wrote in your last comment. Its a little confusing. I have judged plenty of times in both local and national comps. I have seen very good breaks and I have seen others as well. i still feel that you should scan the break your best and only count the birds that you think are scorable.
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motherlodelofts
940 posts
Nov 14, 2006
4:43 PM
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I am picking your brain here Scott....answer these questions for my...Do you believe that a team could do a full turn.....
(I honestly don't even think it is possble , as I mentioned in an earlier post, timing alone as far as the kit breaking together is pushing the limits.
Then you take in all the other factors such as depth and scoreable it all plays in to make it unlikely
if you were judging and a kit was just doing it in every way and every bird drops and your keen eye does not see one bent hub cap rolling...would you give the full turn.
(not if the timing wasn't spot on along with depth)
If no to any of the questions...I would just like to know why....
(I explained why in my responses)
you know they used to say that a Drag car would never do the 1/4 mile in less then 5 seconds...I remember the day that the time board flashed 4.99 seconds...
(these aint race cars, they are pigeons the are limited to their physical abilities)
I believe that a kit that is ON can do a full turn...if they are good birds with a good manager and they are peaking and weather and everything is right. No disrespect to anybody with my posts...I am just fishing here to try and learn a thing or two
(if you want to learn, hook up with those that know the difference , not those around you,these Santa Clause judges rolling through aint helping you or anyone else in this area)
(Now I am going to have you ask yourself a question , "why do I think I am seeing fullturns when even Kenny Billings hasn't even seen one ?" I use him as an example since he is one of the top flyers in the country and has far more experiance than most here , the difference Paul is experiance.)
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 14, 2006 4:47 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
803 posts
Nov 14, 2006
5:11 PM
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Paul, we can just go crawl in a box since We Have No Experience....LOL. Amazing, simply amazing.
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fhtfire
628 posts
Nov 14, 2006
5:34 PM
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Brian...Lol...I guess I need to score a little higher in the flys... I am leading the Sac fliers by about 45 points and did missed 1 fly...I need to get some new birds...cause mine suck!!! These judges that have come through here tell me they look damn good...but Guil Rand does not have very much experience judging...and the people in my area that I get advice from and learn from are Chuck Roe..been in the top 10 in the W/C and is pretty consistant..with his birds really improving in quality over the last couple of years...and Scott himself...I really do not listen to very many people in my area but those two....and I really do not ask to many people questions...but those two...and of course...I listen to KGB, Scott C, Brian Middaugh and McCormick and a few other select few when it comes to questions being answered...so I think I have surrounded myself with pretty good fliers. Mort Emami has won the Utah State fly a couple of times and I talk with him a lot and had him at my house for 3 days to pick his brain. I know that there is so much more to learn...but I do think I know what good quality is and depth..I mean..it is not brain sugery..I do have 20/15 vision..so I know that I am not blind..LOL...I am done with this subject...I am just going to kick back and learn more and live in my own little land of OZ where the full turns come by the bucket full...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
941 posts
Nov 14, 2006
10:23 PM
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Paul, you asked and I answered, call me and we'll talk about it.
Scott
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fhtfire
630 posts
Nov 14, 2006
11:22 PM
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I know I asked and I totally understand where you are coming from...to a point...I am not mad or my feelings hurt...you know me well enough to know that..LOL!! I was being funny and serious at the same time. I understand about the judges..because some have come through here and given points for crap...but that happens every where. What I know I have learned from guys like you and a little trial and error. My birds are not the same birds that I had 3 or 4 years ago and I am not the same flier. I study the kits like you have taught me...I look for the birds that are doing it 100% right and the birds that are not. I see little things that most can't. I am just stating facts...that it is impossible for the human eye to see that many birds rolling at one time and see 10 or more birds from start to finish in the one or two seconds they roll..so you have to use your instinct on how the birds are performing to give scorable breaks. I understand that the timing has to be on...but when a kit of birds looks like they hit a wall and just drop...and no birds stick out or catch my eye doing it wrong...then how can you not award the break. I mean...the birds have to be in the zone and you have to be in the zone as a judge. I mean...you know as well as I do ...that there are days when your birds are just plain on fire and you say to yourself...where the hell did that come from...well the full turn could be on one of those days....why is the full turn even an option if it is never going to happen...why is it even on the score card if the human eye really can't judge it....That is why there are rules like in the NBA..when there is a certain amount of time on the clock...it is humanly impossible to pass the ball in and tip it in for a basket...the game can end with time still on the clock..why..because it is impossible for a human to tip the ball in.....in a certain amount of time. So I can see where you are right about it never happening...because you can truly not see every bird from start to finish in 1.5-2 seconds...so why have a full turn in there...or is it like most of the other scores.....it is the best judgement of the judge....you have to gage through experience that 15 birds dropped with a scorable drop...based on what you have witnessed in the little 5 or 8 bird breaks..you use your best judgement..based on how the kits have performed up to the point of a HUGE break. ......anyway...I am going to give you a call tomorrow....I have a ton of questions now..LOL!!
The car thing was just to prove that there are a lot of things in this world that will NEVER happen....there are things that animals and humans have accomplished in there sports that many said would never happen...or never happen in our lifetime...but they do...triple crowns, 100 yard sprints, racing pigeon times, dunks from the free throw line, dogs finding there way home from hundereds of mile away...hell...I bet there was a time that someone said that a pigeon would never roll with speed and depth like a spinning ball or even break together for that matter..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
51 posts
Nov 17, 2006
8:24 PM
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This is kinda stepping into Kevin and Jays conversation a bit but There is no standard Kevin. You and I dicussed this several years ago and just kinda agreed to disagree. There is a rule in the WC rules that stated that what the judge deems as a scorable roll. That throws out all other standards formentioned in the rules. I told you that back then and still believe it today. All judges will see things differently and all will judge differently.
Have I ever seen a full turn. Hell No. I sure would like to but the reality of it is Just like it was mentioned earlier I think there is a difference between action and roll. with 20 birds all doing something you better be dam sure of yourself befor you put a full turn on the score sheet. That is not to say it hasnt happened but like I said to ME it had better be cut and dry, no doubts. Joe Urbon
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knaylor
304 posts
Nov 18, 2006
1:45 AM
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Joe there is a standard of what a scorable roll should be and here it is.
7) Judging Standards.
1. The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
2. The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
3. The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
4. Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
5. Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
6. The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit.
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JMUrbon
52 posts
Nov 18, 2006
3:10 PM
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Kevin, I am not going to hash this out with you again. My point is this. Rule # 8) Integrity. The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance. This competition is for ROLLERS and not tumblers! Roller flying is a subjective sport and the judge may have to make allowances for extraordinary circumstances. In any case, the judge's decision is final and anyone verbally or physically attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be banned from future WC events by the WC committee. That means that whatever the judge deems as adequate. You know as well as I do that all judges see things differently.That is all I am saying is one judges idea of adequate is usually entirely different than anothers. Joe
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motherlodelofts
953 posts
Nov 18, 2006
3:41 PM
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Joe I agree , what I see as far as judges is some scoring with no min. standard , while others want them rolling clean and proper in order to score.
I think that the rules "need" to be loosely interpited and left to the judges discression in order not to loose the integrity of the fly no matter what, even if it is a good judge or a poor judge................................................................Unfortunately the trend seems to be going towards these score anything judges though and just make everybody happy.
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2006 3:46 PM
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knaylor
305 posts
Nov 18, 2006
4:38 PM
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Joe, I understand and agree that everyone see a different thing. We just seen that big time at our Fall Fly. Re read what I wrote to JSTAR. I took it as he was saying that is a couple of birds were not doing a scorable roll he would still give the flyer the full turn. But about the standard of a scorable roll we will just have to agree to disagree.
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JMUrbon
53 posts
Nov 18, 2006
5:06 PM
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I couldnt agree with you more Scott. Kevin I know what you and I would score are different but I also know that you and I both know what a quality roller looks like. Sometimes you have got to take a look back and think is it better for the hobby or the bird. The hobby is needed for the bird to conyinue to thrive.Joe
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