rollerman132
19 posts
Nov 12, 2006
9:52 PM
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How long should someone breed from a family of birds, before they decide to use them as their foundation?
Last Edited by rollerman132 on Nov 12, 2006 9:59 PM
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RB&R
73 posts
Nov 12, 2006
10:08 PM
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Very long.......it's very hard to find a click pair, might takes you 10 years or 1 year. it depend on you, and how you manage your birds. i been in this hobby for a while i never found one yet. some people think that they have the best family, but if they don't understand their family, the birds are worthless.
Andrew
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J_Star
662 posts
Nov 13, 2006
4:38 AM
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A family starts from a foundation pair is when all the birds are siblings of that pair. What I mean is that the breeder pair is the parents/grandparents and so on of your birds and that they are all related one way or another. Then no matter how you breed them afterwards, without introducing a cross, then the majority of your birds will have the genes of the parent cock and the parent hen. A click pair is easier to find if you have a good family of rollers to start with, because a click pair will give the majority of your better rollers.
Jay
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Santandercol
407 posts
Nov 13, 2006
6:41 AM
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Jay,
It never fails that you have a good explaination.Good post.----------
Kelly
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RB&R
74 posts
Nov 13, 2006
7:48 AM
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Jay,
I disagree, a click pair are hard to find, even you start with a good family. if a click pair are very easy to find than everyone should score more. and if this is true... still only 7-30% of their sibling will turn out to be good and the rest are worthless. Just my opinion..
Andrew
Last Edited by RB&R on Nov 13, 2006 12:27 PM
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dave
195 posts
Nov 13, 2006
8:14 AM
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Finding click pairs work only if start out with the right stuff. It will not take 10 years. If it takes you that long to find a click pair than you should've dump that stuff and gotten something new.
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MILO
21 posts
Nov 13, 2006
8:52 AM
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Dave makes a great point here.
He's right, it doesn't have to be a lifes work to find a click pair. You just need to be observant and mix the pairs up until you hit on one. Once you have found who is producing the goods, scrap the rest and focus on those. As a result, your percentages should go up. I hear about too many guys that have low producing percentages. If it takes you THAT LONG to get some great pairs going....ya, you need some new ones. Keep in mind that the chances of finding a click pair are much better in a tightly bred family, as opposed to one that has a collection of birds from various lofts. JMO
Good luck.
c
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rollerman132
20 posts
Nov 13, 2006
9:04 AM
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So you should give a family of birds at lest 10 years, before you can tell if that family is the right one to use as your foundation. That’s a long time Dave, I know this guy who has changed his family of birds 5 times in the last 6 years. Good post Jay , something to keep in mind.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
794 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:26 AM
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By the end of three years of flying a family you should know if they are worth the time or time to move them out. Three generations of your decision making will tell the tale.
Don't worry about click pairs and special pedigrees. Get rollers from a good source. Then breed some, fly them out, look at the good, bad and ugly, then decide for yourself. There are so many good rollers to choose from out there there is no sense to spend a decade trying to figure out the birds you have are going to work or not. Three years.
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dave
196 posts
Nov 13, 2006
11:32 AM
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Rollerman, I said it should not take you 10 years.
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RB&R
75 posts
Nov 13, 2006
12:30 PM
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Dave,
I said it could take you 10 years or maybe a year, it depend on you.
Last Edited by RB&R on Nov 13, 2006 12:30 PM
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J_Star
663 posts
Nov 13, 2006
1:02 PM
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RB&R,
I said that click pair is EAZIER to find when you have a tight family. Remember that you will not have in the siblings that are not in the gene of the parents to begin with. That is where the term ‘The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree’ come from. If you have mediocre rollers to start with, the best of the siblings will be a mediocre upped a notch at maximum. But if you have an outstanding pair of rollers, they will give you siblings made up of the genetic makeup of their parents combined and in more instances than not better than the parents themselves. I want you also to remember that you only keep from the offspring the ones who exhibit minimum performance at least to the better parent. Doing so will move your operation forward from year to year and within 5 years, you should have some of the best rollers around, if you manage them correctly.
I have written articles about the methods of breeding rollers to breed better rollers. Those articles are listed under the Matrix tab on the side. Just brows through them and lets have a good discussion.
Jay
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dave
197 posts
Nov 13, 2006
1:40 PM
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Andrew,
You said that you have raised rollers for a long time so how long have you been in this hobby? I think I know why you have not been able find a click pair but I'll let you figure it out. It might take you 10 years, lol.
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Velo99
654 posts
Nov 13, 2006
2:09 PM
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OK guys,
Here is my take.
I have three pairs that I call click pairs. They may be crap to someone else. I bred a lot of birds from different pairs this year and these have produced the best and highest numbers of good birds. I will probably breed these guys for a couple of seasons then pick one of them for a foundation pair. One pair already has a leg up. The hen and cock are father/daughter as well as uncle/niece,kinda. They have produced well this season as well as did the other pairs.
After a few seasons the kits will be from these three families. From there it is relatively easy to get the genetic pool down to size. Over the next few seasons after flying from the foundation pairs you get better birds to breed back to the foundation birds.
Most "sophomore" breeders,like myself,will be in this position for a few seasons til they get the various pairings and flying out of kits out of the way.
After that it is a matter of breeding best to best each season. Your gene pool will tighten exponentially each season til the faults start popping up. Then you go back to the other two pairings of the original clicks to get some hybrid vigor. So you should always keep a "side " project going to have some quality blood to drop in for vigor.
Just my thoughts.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Nov 13, 2006 2:13 PM
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fhtfire
625 posts
Nov 13, 2006
5:40 PM
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Everyone is throwing good posts on this topic...and everyone is right..LOL!! It could take 10 years to find a click pair or 1year...you will know in about 3 years if your birds are worth it to continue..or maybe a little less..or a little more....Velo..hit it on the nose as well as J-star...find the pairs that do it and circle the wagons around them. I am not huge into father/daughter matings...that is just me..I have not had very good success...but that is just me...when you are in this hobby...you have to try different breedings...take LOTS of notes...and give it time to see if the birds will work for you. I have good success with Grand Father/ Grand Daughter..Grand Mother/Grandson....Cousins, Uncles and Aunts...and the good old BEst to Best breedings. You just have to try what works...and to be honest...there is no set time limit..it is all up to the individual breeder when they throw in the towel or have faith in there family. Most of all you have to start with the best birds possible...second...like Scott C says..you can't make chicken soup out of chicken S%$T. Everyone goes about it different and guess what...they all work...just do what is right for you.
Click pairs are NOT hard to find if you have good birds...I have numerous pairs in my loft that I have not seperated for years and I will not ...they are my base and when If I make a zig when I shoudl have zagged in my breeding program...I can fall back on my base to recover. Good posts everyone...it takes time...but not that much time...read my Starting out article...maybe it will give you some ideas.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerman132
22 posts
Nov 13, 2006
7:29 PM
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Sorry Dave wrong person lol. So if a person can’t get a click pair out of that family by 3 years they should chuck it? I could deal with 3 years max on any family but not 10.
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RB&R
76 posts
Nov 13, 2006
7:36 PM
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Dave,
Okay, it might take 10 years for me because i'm not as freak as someone in here...LOL
Andrew
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motherlodelofts
939 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:00 PM
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Click pairs mean nothing if the Siblings themselfs don't produce.
Myself click pairs mean little , I'm looking for those birds that'll make a duck roll if bred to it, those it turn will be far more likely to produce offspring that will do the same.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
800 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:09 PM
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Well, since I personally know you have a pen full of quackers, have you put that theory to the test?....LOL.
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rollerman132
24 posts
Nov 13, 2006
10:54 PM
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If one of those ducks ever rolls down on someone, you'll have a major law suite on your hands Scott lol .Smith had chickens I wonder if they rolled?
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dave
198 posts
Nov 14, 2006
8:30 AM
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Andrew,
If you got birds from Bill, Ed, and Murray than it will take you 10 years. What, you been breeding birds since you were 10?
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RB&R
77 posts
Nov 14, 2006
11:21 AM
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Dave,
No Dave, i don't know anything about pigeon when i was 10.
Andrew
Last Edited by RB&R on Nov 14, 2006 11:30 AM
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BR Rollers
43 posts
Nov 18, 2006
8:30 PM
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The topic is Click Pairs: What is a Click pair? Scott is the only one that mentioned what he concidered a click pair but not in great detail. Last year I bred from 5 pairs, 3 from the same family and the other 2 were from different families. Of the 3 of the same family, one pair I raised 8 flyers in which 6 of eight were just awesome. Two were to hot and didn't make it a very long time. I still have 4 , the hawks got the other 2. The best 2 of course..lol
One of the remaining two pairs I raised 8 birds and only got three great birds. And the last pair only two fair birds out of them. I believe the Pair 1 is a click pair of rollers because they consistanly produce awesome Rollers. All the qualities I am looking for in an A team bird.
I started to have all kinds of different ideas as to this years matings ie father daughter, mother son ect. I am going to leave them alone and not mess with something that works well.
I am wondering if maybe I should take the best 3 out of the kit from the other pair and breed those back to the awesome birds I raised from the #1 click pair? And just not re-mate the other 2 pair this season? Open for ideas.
Ronnie
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2006 8:34 PM
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