George Ruiz
120 posts
Nov 18, 2006
8:04 PM
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I often hear people that are trying to create a strain of birds that can beat the strains that were created by breeders that time after time have proven to rise above the rest of many roller strains in competition.
I cant understand why some one would try to reinvent the wheel when it works fine so to speak.
If someone wants to enjoy a good kit and be competive on fly day then they should acquire birds from a breeder that has proven their line of birds over a period of time
in competition .
what do you guys think is it better to build your own strain which can take many years and frustration or buy some stock from someone who already did all the hard work of creating a strain that can compete on fly day ?
George
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nicksiders
851 posts
Nov 18, 2006
8:29 PM
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Cause its funner
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Snicker Rollers
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BR Rollers
46 posts
Nov 18, 2006
9:04 PM
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George, I just got back into Rollers last year. I got my breeders from an individual that does extremly well in competitions to include a world cup win.
I couldn't believe it but the birds did exactly what he told me they would do! What amazes me the most is I can tell it took "someone" a VERY long time to refine and hone this family of birds. I prepared to do some heavy culling but did VERY little. I plan on keeping them exactly as they are with no added blood lines. It would most likely only make them go down hill from where they are now.
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birdman
233 posts
Nov 18, 2006
9:09 PM
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George, obtaining birds with a proven track record is a great way to begin, but keep in mind that the birds we start with will change in various ways due to our unique selection methods, management, climate, preferences, etc...
After three succesive generations of breeding the birds, they're now your strain. Will you be able to preserve the quality of the originals? Progress to a higher level? Or ruin the entire stud?
It's all about the breeder making the right choices in order to move forward with the birds. Some have better ability than others, and the better guys are the ones at the top of the score sheets.
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
809 posts
Nov 18, 2006
10:26 PM
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Any strain or family discussed today as being "proven", was once just a twinkle in the eye of the guy who decided he wanted to build his own. Some work out. Some don't.
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fhtfire
649 posts
Nov 18, 2006
10:53 PM
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There may be something in that strain that you do not like...Most people aren't lucky enough to get proven stock from a top flier....so they have to start somewhere....I fly Ruby Roller, Mort Emami and Chuck ROe (Both Jac strain)...they are both good families and they fly together just fine and they are just plain good.....but I am crossing some.....why..they are both good strains....well..just to see if they get a litte faster or a little deeper...because you just never know...and for sure I can ride my own coat tails instead of somebody elses...because the second I cross they young..those young are for sure mine....if it does not work...I will go back to my breeder base and start again.....but if it does work...YAHOOOOOOOO!! and guess what....it is working!!!...I am honing around certain birds that are doing it in every way....you follow the best birds....it will lead you to the paths you take..that path may be crossing or leaving well enough alone.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
954 posts
Nov 19, 2006
7:31 AM
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George , I think that it is more of a case of people just having a collection of birds from here and there.
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Heyyou
64 posts
Nov 19, 2006
6:04 PM
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It all boils down to the self satisfaction factor. Most people in the hobby for some time just like the challenge to find out if you can breed birds with your own ability to do so. Anyone can buy a street rod, but can they build one themselves. You are building your own strain of birds and not having them handed to you. You can rise to your own level of skill at managing and breeding and getting results you are satisfied with and feeling the satisfaction of having others in the hobby recognize what you have done from a point of knowledge. It is much more fun and satisfying to fly birds you bred and raised to the performance level you are trying to attain. It's the same feeling like having the woodshed full in the fall, all the hay is in the barn and now enjoy the fruits of your labor. Bill White
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George Ruiz
123 posts
Nov 19, 2006
6:15 PM
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Bill some people can afford to buy a street rod but wouldnt be able to drive it so would that make the Sreet rod worthless? i dont think so .
as far as getting more satisfaction out of accomplishing something with what a person builds themself .
then maybe when a person buys a house or car they should just pick up a hammer and build the house them self or get a wrench and build a car them selfs .
then maybe they will be more satisfied driving that car or living in the house they built.
Just my opinion
George
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2006 6:16 PM
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J_Star
674 posts
Nov 20, 2006
5:18 AM
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In my opinion…You cannot make chicken soup out of chicken sh**. You must start with the best birds you can afford, whether you are building your own or just maintaining somebody else’s achievements. If you mix too many families to start your own, you risk diluting the gene pool and open another can of worms for yourself and undo what the original breeder has done all his life. But you can bring a cross from a solid family that exhibit a certain trait that you think need to incorporate with the strain you are working with to enhance and move the strain a bit forward to your liking, which will take a couple of seasons to do and there is no guarantee of success. The successful breeders in my opinion are the ones who can concentrate the gene pool and de-voiding the strain with the unwanted faults. How you can achieve that is how you chose the road to be. It is not easy and just don’t make it much harder for you just to say I build a strain from scratch because even so and after so many years, still there is no guarantee for success. In most cases, it would take you three and more seasons to realize that the direction you chose to take was a mistake and allot of times fanciers just give up instead of retrying again…..Jay
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bman
89 posts
Nov 20, 2006
10:24 AM
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Okay this brings up a couple of questions for me.
I have read every post on this site and this is what I am basing my questions on.
1) If an established family is the way to go,
why do so many guys have more than one family?
2) It appears that the ones with just one family rarely
enjoy the same success as the originator let alone surpass his accomplishments.
3) It "appears" that if sucessfull its "there" family and if it don't work out it goes back on the original breeder?
No malice intended,just legitmate questions in MY mind.
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Ron
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Ballrollers
486 posts
Nov 20, 2006
11:08 AM
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Ron,
Good observation. There is no perfect family of rollers out there, in my opinion. They all have their pluses and minuses. So guys have to make the decision whether to look for the solution in the right bird bred from within the family...or whether to look for those desired qualities in some other inbred family. Men are successful in both efforts....and men fail in both efforts. It depends on the skill of the loft manager in selecting pairings and in training the offspring to evaluate them properly. Whether men take the credit for successes or failures or blame the family of birds depends, totally, on the situation. There are so many variables in a given situation that can ensure one's success....or one's failure...that it will vary depending on the circumstances.
YITS,
Cliff
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J_Star
676 posts
Nov 20, 2006
11:19 AM
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Ron, I am answering your questions based on my take only, others might have different views. Not every established family is the way to go, rather an outstanding family is the best way to go. The reason is allot of the faults are de-voided and only the outstanding quality is there. Remember that there is not such thing is perfect. A thing or two you might admire might not have been the interest to the original breeder. That is when you bring in couple of birds from a trusted source that has excellent birds and in particular a trait or two that you desire in your flock, which in your opinion will make your birds superior. For having multiple families, could be for several reasons. For instance, like Scott said it could be just a collector of rollers who just doesn’t know what he needs or just like to have different birds with different behaviors. Another, it could be like me, for example, when I lost a kit to an overfly, and I didn’t have enough birds from my family at the time and Paul helped me by sending me some of his family of birds. Others could be because once they were established with some birds and they got to meet other fanciers and were offered some good birds from those fanciers that they couldn’t refuse. Having multiple families are not as bad as our writing might make it to be. The trick behind multiple families is that you have to find the right families that are compatible to each other, with some that might have other desirable traits that you need to instill in the birds to make all of them melt into one specimen. I truly believe that this practice should be left to the pros or after five years from breeding, selecting and culling on your own. Then you will have the knack on how to melt birds into a desired specimen. To answer the last question is simply human selfishness. Everybody wants to be recognized for any achievement no matter how little it is but no body wants to be blamed for anything. We, as human, learned how to point fingers at somebody else from a young age and it is the way of life…..Jay
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bman
90 posts
Nov 20, 2006
11:26 AM
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Thanks Cliff,
This raises another question.I beleive a tight bred family
promotes consistiency but on the same token wouldn't it reduce the chance of that one superior bird that could really move you forward? I know The so-called "hybrid vigor" is considered to be not able to be duplicated in the following generations.But isn't that what Pensom did when he "pinched" a bird from someone else's loft?
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Ron
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bman
92 posts
Nov 20, 2006
12:05 PM
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Jay,
Good post.Care to take a crack at my last question?
I think we crossed over when posting.
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Ron
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bman
93 posts
Nov 20, 2006
12:10 PM
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I guess what I'm saying is every breed,family or strain of
rollers,cows,chickens or whatever started with hybrid vigor.Someone wanted to combine the best traits of x with z.So why is it so quickly dismissed as not being able to be maintained?
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Ron
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J_Star
678 posts
Nov 20, 2006
12:59 PM
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Ron, My take is that bringing a compatible bird or two every once in great while to enhance your birds and add a trait or two is different than bringing birds from all over the place and call them a family. As you mentioned that Bill Pensom was pinching birds from trusted friends whom he admired and respected in the roller hobby, whether his friends are from England or the USA. Plona and Smith’s birds are based on Pensom’s birds. The Jaconettes are the same, so they all have similar genetic makeup to start with. Then everybody else today that we know of from thirty or so years have birds that started from those families here in the USA. Some might not admit to the origin of their birds because they want them to be labeled as their own because of an ego thing. Take for example Mee’s family, where did they originate from? I don’t believe anybody knows….Remember, back then plate rollers and twizlers were considered champions, but not in today’s standards…..Also to add is that some people believe in breeding best to best no matter where the bird come from. This practice is ok but it has its own ill results just as consistence inbreeding would…Jay
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Oldfart
5 posts
Nov 20, 2006
3:09 PM
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Just one more opinionated "oldfart". I have raised rollers
most of my life. As a young boy I become infatuated and lustful when visiting the lofts of my elders and honestly,betters. Many sleepless nights were spent dreaming of full turns, deep spinners (with perfect control), and that big brightly glowing trophy! Unfortunately only dreams of a child. I tried again as a young adult but work often interfered and I choose to not do badly what I could not do correctly. Now I'm retired! Now I have the time! Except where has the time disappeared. Don't misunderstand I'm not ready to give up just yet. My point is simple. I can spend the next few years trying to start my own family from $5 birds or I can pony up for quality. I choose the latter and the advantages of starting with quality and the hard work of others,I'm paying for. Does this mean I'm quranteeded success? No!
I'm perfectly capable of screwing them up! Just ask one of my X's. I also may with luck and work maintain or improve.
For me the answer is clear, I now have good stock and the chance to realize a dream or two. Worst case scenario, I still get to try.
Thanks for listening. Thom Hale "oldfart"
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motherlodelofts
955 posts
Nov 20, 2006
3:51 PM
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To many get hung up on just collecting birds from various familys or even from one family , either way they are just collecting.........
Success is going to be limited in the long run either way (been there), to move it forward is going to depend on finding a few key birds that have the goods with decent stability , these key birds once found are what you circle the wagons around............
If you feel that you need other birds to breed in, chances are you are downbreeding what ever you are trying to add whether it be sound birds to unsound ,or hot birds to stiff......................
The kicker is you must collect birds in the first place to find those key birds............................................................................Scott
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bman
100 posts
Nov 21, 2006
9:12 AM
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Scott,
Help me out here.Which are you advocating."Collecting" birds or familys to find the "key" birds.From my stand point I don't have world class kits I can go stand under.
I have to rely on the breeder or word of mouth or maybe even gut instinct.Do you really know what you want or need till you have flown a family for a year or two.I am starting over after a 15 year absence.My current approach is I have three seperate families that I am keeping seperate from each other but flying them together under the same management to see what works for me.Comments?
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Ron
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katyroller
90 posts
Nov 21, 2006
10:05 AM
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Ron, I am using a similiar approach to get restarted in the hobby after a long break. I have 2 families that I am keeping seperate but flying together. Both families are good but each has something that the other doesn't have. I plan to select the best young from each family and breed them together to form a new family. The goal is to develop a family that is better than the original families. If this doesn't work, I can still elect to keep one or both of the original families and improve on them. I should have a head start since I have only kept the best of the birds I raised. For me, this is what keeps me hooked on the hobby.
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bman
101 posts
Nov 21, 2006
10:24 AM
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Katyroller,
I know exactly what you mean.The guys advocating "go watch the birds fly" alot of them are on the west coast.If you look at the NBRC members list Ca. has something like 370 members.Ohio has 30 something!Tough to drive a couple of hundred miles and look at a kit one time and make any kind of accurate judgement.
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Ron
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J_Star
681 posts
Nov 21, 2006
12:22 PM
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Ron to respond to your post #93, to bring the best performer birds from all over and breed best to best is a common practice…indeed. But the way I look at it is that the performance is not all what it is. To me it is only 50% of the battle, while the other 50% is the genetic makeup of the combined gene pool. When we work on our own strain to devoid them from faults, we actually devoid them of performance faults AS WELL AS of genetic faults such as canker, webbed feet, poor feathers, poor fertility rate, bloody eye, size, temperament and other factors that would, in time and down the road, bring your loft to unmanageable conditions. By mixing best to best from so many sources, how in the world you can not be bringing so many of these faults into your family? How can you be assured? I for one don’t like high maintenance operations, where I need to constantly medicate my birds to eradicate them from diseases and cull so many birds because of their poor feathering, webbed feet and blood in the eye. I also would not like to bring poor egg hatchability rate, dead in shell and poor fertility rate into my operation. That is just me…Jay
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bman
103 posts
Nov 21, 2006
12:33 PM
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Jay,
I understand perfectly what your saying,BUT what if you don't have a family.What about new guys or guys like me stating over.In 1980 I started with birds from probably
four different families.When I got out in 1990 I had a very nice consistent "family".Comp caliber? I doubt it but very predictable.I don't live next door to Scott Cambell
or Monty Neible so how do you invest the time and money in one family and know that's going to be the ONE.
Ron
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Ron
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J_Star
683 posts
Nov 21, 2006
12:37 PM
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Ron, you are from LA, aren't you?
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 12:37 PM
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bman
104 posts
Nov 21, 2006
1:38 PM
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Jay,
No I'm just south of Youngstown,Ohio.lol
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Ron
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J_Star
685 posts
Nov 21, 2006
1:56 PM
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Yes, sorry, I remember you told me that. But there is another Ron on this site that is from LA. What family do you fly? How many you have? and how do you grade them from 1 to 10. Just would like to know. Thanks.....Jay
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bman
108 posts
Nov 21, 2006
2:12 PM
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Jay,
First part is easy,Hardesty and Harter/Davis.
the next questin is a little tougher.
Started in March with two pair each.Raised 25 youngsters.
Between preds and pred induced overflys have 11 left.
Only two left out of the first round one 15ft over all 4-5
the other one 20-25ft 6-7
the other nine only 4-5 months old and had to lockdown or kiss them goodbye.All flipping couple trying to roll.
Honestly don't have enough left or enough wing time to make any evaluation.
P.S. I rated them against the birds I had before.Don't know wher that is on the BIG scale.
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Ron
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Ballrollers
488 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:08 PM
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Hey Ron,
Don't know if I mentioned it before to you before, but I was born and raised in Canton, Ohio.....went to Kent State for undergrad and then to Ohio State for post-graduate work. I raised rollers in the 60-s and 70's and belonged to the Akron-Canton Roller Club. I would definitely hook up with those guys if I were you, and attend their flys if you can't make their meetings. It sounds like you have got good families of birds......you just need the right individuals in the family with the goods. Try to get around to see the other guys in the state when you can. There are a lot of good roller men in Ohio. Good luck!
Cliff
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bman
110 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:26 PM
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Thanks Cliff,
I plan on doing just that next summer.From Sept-April
I guide bird hunts with my dogs almost every weekend,makes it hard to get away.
When not guideing I'm hunting either deer,turkey or waterfowl.Too many vices I guess.LOL
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Ron
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big al
224 posts
Nov 21, 2006
5:20 PM
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J Star, Tapp, Birdman I need your e-mail addresses.
nohednt@yahoo.com
I have something to send you.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 5:21 PM
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motherlodelofts
958 posts
Nov 21, 2006
5:22 PM
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Scott,
Help me out here.Which are you advocating."Collecting" birds or familys to find the "key" birds.From my stand point I don't have world class kits I can go stand under.
I have to rely on the breeder or word of mouth or maybe even gut instinct.Do you really know what you want or need till you have flown a family for a year or two.I am starting over after a 15 year absence.My current approach is I have three seperate families that I am keeping seperate from each other but flying them together under the same management to see what works for me.Comments?
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Ron
Ron I advocate solid familys that have prooven themselfs in the hands of the flyer that you abtain them from...Keep in mind that many of the top families accross the country are nothing more than branches off of the same tree.
Why is this so important ? first and formost is consistancy of the charactoristics of the birds themselfs,some families are well bred while others are not,personaly I would stay away from those that always feel a need to keep crossing birds in, usualy they are just covering up major faults such as either stiff or too hot, or maybe too frequent but sloppy so they try to breed qaulity in , what do you get ? birds all over the board is what.......................................................Look at this hobby as journey with many avenues,it takes time, work and patiance, it also takes years to figure out where you are going, at time's you hit dead ends , other times you swear that you are on the right path only to be led down another , basicly it's a moving target, for me that is what I enjoy about it.
The goal is always the same though , and that is to breed hard rolling birds that aren't controled by the roll that work as a unit, and you want to breed them in decent numbers.
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 5:24 PM
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bman
111 posts
Nov 21, 2006
6:00 PM
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Thanks Scott,well put.
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Ron
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motherlodelofts
960 posts
Nov 21, 2006
6:08 PM
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Ron I might add that the goal is easier said than done, but I think that is obvious LOL
I might also add that it takes a good three or four years to truely know the value of a stock bird , you want them to produce on various mates and the siblings to hold the roll without falling apart, plus the siblings have to produce also in order for the line to move forward.
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 6:12 PM
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J_Star
691 posts
Nov 22, 2006
8:45 AM
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Scott, what you described is the stock birds that you might get over the net. But if you get your stock from a reputable breeder who has been in it for a long time, and adhered to the most important thing "SELECTION", then those problems won't be found in the gene pool....Jay
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motherlodelofts
969 posts
Nov 24, 2006
10:50 AM
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I'm not sure that I am following you Jay, but if you feel you need to cross something in, then the family isn't solid, if it was then you wouldn't need to cross in outside blood.
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
846 posts
Nov 24, 2006
10:56 AM
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Whaaaaa?????
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Ken west
6 posts
Nov 24, 2006
11:15 AM
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Katyroller email me at kwwave@aol.com I need some info. Thanks Ken
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2006 11:19 AM
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katyroller
101 posts
Nov 24, 2006
5:47 PM
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Ken, I just sent you an email.
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big al
225 posts
Nov 25, 2006
11:00 AM
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George,
I need your e-mail address...
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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George Ruiz
129 posts
Nov 25, 2006
7:15 PM
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Big Al its g1ruiz@cox.net
George
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2006 6:07 PM
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