George Ruiz
124 posts
Nov 20, 2006
6:33 PM
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what bird would you stock ? a 40 to 50ft that stands out in the kit that is easy to see becuase he sometimes rolls when the kit dont break?
Or a bird that rolls only 20ft but only rolls when the kit breaks?
Thanks George
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 6:33 PM
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nicksiders
854 posts
Nov 20, 2006
7:36 PM
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Rolls when the kit breaks.
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Snicker Rollers
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Santandercol
423 posts
Nov 20, 2006
7:42 PM
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So Nick,
Are you saying a bird that rolls solo is not a good thing even if it rolls deep and gets back into the kit quickly?How about if it rolls solo,then rolls when the kit breaks as well.Remember these questions are coming from a guy that knows almost ZIP about competition flying.
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Kelly
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birdman
235 posts
Nov 20, 2006
7:47 PM
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George, I'm not sure I would I would stock either one unless the velocity, style, and kitting were exceptional. But if I had to make a blind choice on which one to breed, I would choose the 20' bird with the kit chemistry and control and breed it to a deeper frequent bird. LOL
Russ
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 7:51 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
815 posts
Nov 20, 2006
8:53 PM
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George, I think the key word used to describe the first bird is "sometimes". Sometimes can mean a lot of different things and a bird can go either direction from "sometimes". If such a bird exhibited great rolling performance and only "sometimes" rolled by itself, most likely from the back of the kit, while also being a participant in a majority of the rest of the breaks the kit performed, then its consideratin would increase. If it was one of those that is always popcorn rolling from the kit, usually by itself, I've learned the hard way those just don't pan out in the stock loft.
With the 20 footer, if that bird showed good spin performance and was always going on the breaks and usually never by itself, that bird would get more consideration from me, particularly, and this is very important, if it has good frequency.
Ideally I would want the deep bird to roll on the breaks and not by itself. The 20 footer needs to be quite frequent and going on nearly every break in an active kit. Whichever the person decides, they have to know what bird they plan to mate it to otherwise neither are a good choice.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 8:54 PM
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George Ruiz
125 posts
Nov 20, 2006
9:02 PM
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Lets say both birds are of equal quality in the spin
same wing position and same velocity.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 9:05 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
833 posts
Nov 20, 2006
9:04 PM
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...and 10 primary feathers on each wing...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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George Ruiz
126 posts
Nov 20, 2006
9:09 PM
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Tony which would you stock ?
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 9:09 PM
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nicksiders
855 posts
Nov 20, 2006
9:54 PM
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The roll has to be quality always. I don't desire any solo performers; I want a team of efficient birds that break together with score-able rolls....spins actually. I want them to go up together and come down together. I want them to kit like they are in love......very close; very tight. I want them to make more than just left turns; I want thier roll to be ball bearing smooth with good velocity and be 20 to 40 footers; then fly like a bullet to re-kit. That is all I want. Plus I want them to be stenciled yellow opals(LOL)......Just kidding about the color(LMAO)
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Snicker Rollers
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W@yne
24 posts
Nov 20, 2006
10:28 PM
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George
If the two birds show same quality and the deeper bird shows more frequent rolls,Could it be the rest of your kit are not very frequent and the deeper bird Could be rolling 2 a minute? In that case the deeper bird could be the more valuble bird in your stock loft, But both sound valuble birds in their own way I would try um both out and see what happens from next years young. Many people experiment with stock birds and youve nothing to lose. Also do you want a kit of 60 foot or 20 foot rollers?
Just my opinion only.
regards
W@YNE UK
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2006 10:42 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
834 posts
Nov 20, 2006
10:55 PM
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Hey George, okay, I'll go along, for competition purposes I would prefer to stock a properly performing bird that works in concert with the kit.
Of course I think old school fanciers would prefer the individual and properly performing deep bird. It sure is a site to watch.
If you focus on comp, take the shorter roller, if you want individual performance go with the one that goes deep and stands out.
However, truth be told, in the course of its use in the breeding loft, either of these two birds could produce what the other bird shows in its youngsters and what it does not. LOL Go figure...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
91 posts
Nov 21, 2006
10:22 AM
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In a perfect world I would keep both. I'd use the shorter "kit" roller for my comp. kits and the deep "individual" roller for my personal enjoyment kit. I like the friendships made from comp. flying but I also enjoy watching DEEP birds that aren't cut out for comp. flying.
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JMUrbon
56 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:52 PM
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Lets be honest guys, We all have had both styles in our kits at one time or another and depending on the limited supply of stock birds you may have would have alot to do with what you decide to do with both of them. Now if you were a novice with very little to select from you would more than likely give them both a shot. On the other side of the fence there is the consumate competition breeder. Now he is going to focus more on the team player. I personally like them a bit deeper to be considered for stock but there again that all depends on the breeders personal preferance and also what he has to select from.Joe Urbon
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motherlodelofts
959 posts
Nov 21, 2006
5:32 PM
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Why is that bird rolling that deep ? the answer to that is the same reason that it is triggering itself , lack of control.
That bird will either get a handle on the roll or kill itself, start landing early ect.
Or it will straighten up as it gets a handle on the roll and possibly be one of the stars in the team.
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 6:27 PM
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katyroller
93 posts
Nov 21, 2006
5:47 PM
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I've had and have seen 40-50' birds that had great control. That great control didn't just last a year or two either. Some of those birds reproduced themselves but most threw shorter rolling birds. I have found that the deeper rolling birds tend to be "individuals" and usually don't mind being an out bird. I think the stronger the desire to kit, the shorter the bird will roll due to its' desire to remain with the kit. Not all deep birds are weak on the control.
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 5:48 PM
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motherlodelofts
961 posts
Nov 21, 2006
6:23 PM
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"I've had and have seen 40-50' birds that had great control. That great control didn't just last a year or two either. Some of those birds reproduced themselves but most threw shorter rolling birds. I have found that the deeper rolling birds tend to be "individuals" and usually don't mind being an out bird. I think the stronger the desire to kit, the shorter the bird will roll due to its' desire to remain with the kit. Not all deep birds are weak on the control. "............................................................................................................
(Rolling individule , and not kittling is "weak" on control and nothing less, but yes deep birds can also have control , the one's that can do it right and shoot back to the team like shot out of a slingshot are far and few inbetween though)
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 6:25 PM
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J_Star
690 posts
Nov 22, 2006
8:39 AM
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Those kind of solo performers are good to have if you participate in the 11 bird comp fly....Jay
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motherlodelofts
962 posts
Nov 22, 2006
9:08 AM
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Not really Jay , you have more 20 bird flyers flying the 11 due to you can use the same birds to fly both , but you can't use any of the same birds if you are flying two 20 bird kits , in other words it gives them another option.
This is showing in the finals of the 11 bird and it isn't due to individule rollers , such birds don't give you much of an advantage on anything except for maybe they would be the first that a hawk hones in on , the good one's know to shut it off while those dummys just roll when a hawk is coming in on them.
Just my opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
491 posts
Nov 22, 2006
10:05 AM
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Good point, Jay. There are a huge number of roller men who prefer the performance of the individual deep spinner over the 20-bird kit performance. Those that choose to compete with them will, obviously, go with the 11-bird contest.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2006 10:05 AM
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maxspin
60 posts
Nov 22, 2006
12:15 PM
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Interesting that there is the perception that you need deep birds to be competitive in the 11 bird fly. We had an interesting conversation at our regional fly. If you had an 11 bird kit full of short frequent birds….. Say 20 feet once a minute…. That would give you a score of 220 in a 20 minute fly. I only saw one person with a higher total in any of the regions this year, and would be in first place in the finals.
Kind of make you go Hmmmmmmm…….
Keith Maxwell
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katyroller
96 posts
Nov 22, 2006
7:29 PM
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Scott, I think you are confusing inferior quality birds with GOOD deep rollers. Competition kits and deep rolling kits are two different animals and you have to change your expectations when you view the two. IMHO you prefer the comp. kits but to suggest that deep birds are of inferior quality does an injustice to the BR. You state that good deep birds are few and far between. I agree somewhat but feel the challenge is what makes them so valuable when you succeed. Is a 20 bird comp. kit that rolls in concert everytime but only hits 10'-15's, more exciting than a 20 bird deep kit that always has 4 or 5 birds hitting from 20'-50' with form and velocity? It's all in the eye of the beholder my friend.
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motherlodelofts
963 posts
Nov 22, 2006
9:31 PM
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I don't see a top notch competition kit as anything but a deep rolling kit........
A kit hammering out 10-15 footers is like watching grass grow , and that will put you the bottom of the multipliers which will likely put you on the bottom of the score sheet.................
I think that we are probably close to being on the same page , I just expect more out of them is all.
Scott
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JMUrbon
58 posts
Nov 22, 2006
9:42 PM
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There are a lot of great kits that have the 40-50 footers in them. The difference between the good and the great is the size of the heart. Most birds of that depth cannot sustain it for as long as needed and usually end up costing points. Now that being said you need to determine if that extra bonus for the depth that you will gain is going to out weigh what will be lost because of out birds. A deep bird that has the ability to stay with the kit is priceless if it has the quality and style to go with the depth but most dont for very long. Like Scott said the short 15 foot kits are pretty boring but look at the standings. There are alot of 1.2 and 1.3 depth multipliers in the top 10. Not that that is a good thing but non the less they are there. Joe Urbon
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katyroller
100 posts
Nov 23, 2006
6:30 PM
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Scott & Joe, I can agree with both of you. Scott, thanks for clarifying your expectations a little better. I agree we are pretty darn close on what we expect from our birds. I'm sure once I start competing with them I will have to raise the bar a little as far as expectations go. Joe, you are correct since I am seeing more and more of the 1.2 and 1.3 kits gaining acceptance. These kits are hitting big numbers for frequency and number of birds rolling. Hopefully depth starts to make more of a come back. Happy Thanksgiving Guys,
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motherlodelofts
968 posts
Nov 23, 2006
7:14 PM
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Katyroller, first and foremost I breed what I like, and that happens to be qaulity and depth(who wouldn't ?) , and I want them banging together.
Never would I breed for a shorter more frequent bird, and there are few that I know that would, deeper kits do win also if all else is right , don't under estimate the multipliers if the judge is useing them properly , a kit averaging 10 ft is a 1.0 , a 1.3 makes a huge difference, I think my highest for depth has been a couple 1.5 with maybe a 1.6 one time 100 raw x 1.0 is 100 , 100 x 1.5 is 150 , huge difference , there is a reason for the multipliers to award good birds heavily.
Scott
PS. don't buy into this hype that the guys flying competion are breeding and flying a bunch a short frequent tumblers ,that comes from none flyers, there isn't a flyer out there that I know of (and I know many) not trying to breed and fly deep qaulity birds as long as they have the heart to handle it.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2006 7:29 PM
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dave
203 posts
Nov 23, 2006
8:44 PM
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Most comp kits are not 10-15 footers unless they are very young birds. Most kits I have seen are about 20-30 footers.
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