sac_spinners
8 posts
Nov 21, 2006
12:11 PM
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I was wondering what will happen if i get some good strian of birds like the jaconette but they are the birds that the breeder didn't really like and was selling them because they don't have what it takes to be in the A team , would i still get some good quality birds from these birds even though they are not really good in quality and is not a proven bird but is from a good line?
spin to win
chor
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 12:13 PM
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W@yne
25 posts
Nov 21, 2006
12:50 PM
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sac_spinners
Breeding from pigeons that are not picked from the air with the qualitys of a true champion stock bird but are still from the bloodlines of the same champion stock bird will reduce the percentage of good rollers plus may pick the habits that the birds have got themselves ie faults.If the owner will not want to use them due to faults for breeding to be honest i wouldnt use them.Why breed from second best? The breeder should not sell birds to you with faults they should be culled. The standard wont get any better with people selling thier crap!!!
regards w@yne uk
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 1:03 PM
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J_Star
686 posts
Nov 21, 2006
2:10 PM
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I agree with wayne 100%....Jay
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fhtfire
653 posts
Nov 21, 2006
2:10 PM
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Wayne...you are SOOOOO wrong brother. DO you honestly think that a breeder sells his best birds...HECK NO...If he did...he or she would not have much of a team. Just because a bird is not in the A-team....does not mean it does not have the goods....some do not have the perch space....some may just want to do some spring cleaning for more perch space. It works both ways in breeding...you can get a bird that is a champion in every way...but will not produce...and you can have one that is a pretty damn good bird and produce top quality spinners. I wish everyone would just except the fact that a lot of it is pure LUCK...when it comes to putting new pairs together...there is not a magic wand or everyong would have a loft of Champions...If a young man or woman comes to my house and I give him some birds from my B-team or my young bird team...and tell them to breed them and see what you get....that kid better take them birds. The B-team...may just be younger siblings of a super star A-team bird...or a it may be just an unproven young bird...that does not mean I am giving away crap....Crap is giving away a bird that has been on the wing for a year and does flips or rolls crappy...and you know it...but giving away an unproven bird is not a bad thing. It is a gamble just like anything...even if I give my Best A-team birds away..does not mean it is going to produce...The key is this....it depends on who you are getting the birds from and the over all quality of birds they got. I tell you right now...IF KGB, McCormick, Tony, Scott C., Rick Mee, Clay Hoyle, Chuck Roe, George Mason, Abel Diaz...I could go on forever with names...but if anyone of those guys pulled some birds from there B-team or young bird team and told me to breed them and see what you get...and I was a new fancier....I would do it in a heart beat...site unseen and birds unflown...why...because the blood is there...if those birds produce 5 good spinners out of 20....then breed from those..and so on....the blood is there....good or bad.....that is how you start....I don't know about you...but I don't know to many breeders that ship off there best Stock or best Kit birds...those stay in the loft...
Just because a bird shows faults...does NOT mean it will not produce better birds...that is with anything.....I have bred livestock to and have proven it time and time again...it is all about finding the right breeding. There is never a guarantee with any breeding NEVER. The odds are in your favor when breeding the best bird..but it is not absolute. I picked a nice black cock with white tail from Scott C...it was in his C-team/B-team...this bird looked damn good in the air....IT WAS NOT AN A-team bird......It landed and Scott gave it to man and said that he is an OK bird..but it has good breeding TRY IT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS....that bird produced some of the best spinners I have ever seen. I have two from him in my A-team right now. Thank god I did not say..oh no this is a mediocre bird...no..it had the breeding behind it...and if it did not work out...What was I out..a couple pounds of feed. I am by no means saying..to give somebody a cull..a cull is a bird that has been flown out and SUCKS...a cull is not a bird that is 8-10 months old...still proving himself....or and unproven young bird...those are gambles....and if you are a new flier and it is a good breeder....take the gamble and breed..you need to start somewhere.....I pick from the air in my loft because they are my birds and I see them fly everyday...I don't always put my BEST kit bird in the stock loft...there is more to it than just spinning good..it has to have the WHOLE package..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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MILO
24 posts
Nov 21, 2006
2:17 PM
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Hey Paul.
You are right, selling breeders is not really smart..LOL BUT, If I sold a bird, it would be off my #1 pair. Period. I would never attach my name to, or want to be associated with birds that were nothing less then the best I had to offer. The birds you are referring to in your post here, are the ones one should give for free, and that excludes culls.
c
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 2:19 PM
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sac_spinners
9 posts
Nov 21, 2006
3:01 PM
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So Paul,
You are saying that as long as they have the blood in them they will still produce good birds right? and that it is on how the birds click right?
spin to win
chor
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Ballrollers
487 posts
Nov 21, 2006
3:24 PM
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Right on, Paul! Let's face it, proven breeders are just not available to the average guy getting started. The point is just that...to get started with the best you can get your hands on. Usually, the best you can do will be birds that you see perform, but are unproven in the stock loft. As you said, Paul, B-kit birds. There is a tremendous amount to be learned, by a new guy in the hobby, through pairing these birds differently and flying out the offspring. You will make mistakes and this is the time to make them.....and to learn. As you join clubs, attend flys and make contacts and friends in the hobby, you will find that many doors will open up as guys find out that you are committed, serious, and involved in the sport. A guy then becomes aware of birds available at auctions. As you make friends in the sport, better birds become available. As more established breeders continue to improve their stock lofts and their percentages, a guy can get lucky and get breeders that maybe are only producing 10% for the A-kit. But, Hey! That's a start! Then you can breed that bird back to a parent and you're off and running while you prove out the flyers. As I said, there is invaluable experience to be learned through this process. The key is to get started, don't get discouraged, stay committed and above all, get active in the sport in every way that you can, locally and nationally. As I said, doors will open. I have yet to pay dollar one for any of the best birds that I am breeding, and I have offered men lots of bucks for good birds. And it's a funny thing.... I have struck out on every dime I have spent on "quality" birds! I know that not everyone has had this experience when paying for birds....but that's how it looks from here, guys.
YITS,
Cliff
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fhtfire
654 posts
Nov 21, 2006
3:24 PM
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No that is not what I am saying....what I am saying is that if they are from a GOOD fancier with GOOD bloodline and they are not culls...meaning birds that have been flown out and totally suck or to flawed to pass on....then they MAY produce good birds. If the blood is there you can breed them and see what happens...fly out the young. If the young are not good...well then just like the rest of us...you got a bum pair....it happens to any breeder..good or bad..when you put a new pair together you cross your fingers. Just because you got "second best" does not mean you got a cull...what it means is you got a bird that for whatever reason is in the B-team...that does not mean it is not a good bird or has "potential" to be a good bird.....same in the stock loft...EVERY unproven stock bird is nothing but potential....just because a bird is a super star does not mean it is going to produce...it works both ways.
So..to answer your question....I don't know..and there is no guarantee..but you have to try right? as long as they came from a good, honest fancier with good stock...then the odds are already in your favor.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
55 posts
Nov 21, 2006
3:47 PM
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Sac Spinners, just because a bird is off the best does not necessarily mean it will produce at all. Sometimes the least expexted birds throw the best. But that being said, as a beginner you are goping to greatly increase your chances of producing a good bird by choosing good birds to breed from. I also agree 100% with Paul that you are not going to get anybody to sell you their best unless you intend on shelling out alot of money and then you still may not get their best in reality. Remember this, Just because I cull a bird that doesn't mean it is a cull to somebody else. That would depend on what you have to breed from at the time. You may have an entire stock loft full of bonified culls and in that case you would definately be better off than you were. Joe Urbon
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parlorfancier916
165 posts
Nov 21, 2006
3:56 PM
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he is right, I mean I didn't buy the best birds out there, I bought the most related one and bred from those birds. Like for example I bought a nest pair from my friend, it wasn't the best birds but they produced some birds that were longer rollers then his. Just because a bird proves himself in the air or on the ground, depending on what type of roller you are talking about, doesn't mean that roller can prove itself in the breeding pens.
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parlorfancier916
166 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:00 PM
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one quote I'd like to say, "One man's trash is another man's treasure," you get?
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belle
44 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:15 PM
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Not every Roller is a spinner and not every spinner is breeder James Turner."Any bird that rolls 10 feet or more and is from a high performance family has the potential to become a breeder of long distance Rollers" Robert Roach
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sac_spinners
10 posts
Nov 21, 2006
4:33 PM
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Thanks all you guys for all the information on this topic, makes me feel a bit more confident in my birds LOL, ill just breed them and see what i get off them and hope for the best
spin to win
chor
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W@yne
26 posts
Nov 21, 2006
10:20 PM
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sac spinners
You need to ask yourself why are these birds not good enough for this guys a team? Are these birds carrying faults? Paul!!! sac spinners never mentioned that these birds was flying in the guys b team he just said they was not good enough for his a team,True you might and probly will breed some good birds from these birds if they click but i think it will knock the percentage rate drastically depending on what was wrong with these birds.
Sac spinners ask the guy to let you have some eggs from his best pairs i know a new flyer could go anywhere in uk and 99% of top breeders would not mind giving you couple pair of eggs from his best pairs at end of the seasons breeding and foster them under a couple of pairs of pumpers.Yes it all depends on where you get these birds from.
regards w@yne
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2006 10:20 PM
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Shaun
379 posts
Nov 21, 2006
11:48 PM
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I would have liked some eggs but having starting in the April, it would have meant waiting many months until the end of the season. As for getting decent birds, I had Graham Dexter on the lookout for me for a time, including the AERC auction (which Wayne will know of). He said he felt there was nothing suitable for me, so I still had nothing. I was fed up at this point, so I bought a squeaker kit from George Mason. They were from his usual breeding pairs, from which he forms his own kits, so I was reducing the odds in my favour. I could have flown that squeaker kit out, but virtually everyone said it was too risky and that I should lock them down, breed from them and evaluate the youngsters.
So, I effectively bought a family of genes. I've had to skip a generation and evaluate grandchildren of the original Mason breeders. It's certainly a long route to establishing decent stock, but I think Cliff is right in that there's a huge learning curve and lots of mistakes will be made along the way. Perhaps Graham Dexter did me a favour. He knew I was inexperienced and I think he was trying to find me a family which he felt I could handle. If I'd paid big money for some decent breeders, the chances are I would have made mistakes which might have screwed up many of the offspring (and possibly the breeders!). However, by experimenting with dozens of Mason youngsters - all disposble as I still have the original stock and can produce as many as I like - I've mastered many aspects of rollers.
So, what are these grandchildren like? Are the family's genes strong enough to skip a generation? Well, I believe they conform to the usual roller odds: only a few seem to have the quality I'm looking for. The rest are either average or crap. I cull the crap as I go along and so long as the average ones kit well and do the time and aren't a nuisance in any way, they stay in the kit. Meanwhile, I'm keeping a close eye on the really good ones, with a view to them forming my foundation stock for the future.
What Paul has said about the breeding odds, certainly concurs with what I've read about genetics and what I've heard from many people. It's words to the effect that whilst breeding best to best is the usual preference, it might not work. Being good in the air is no guarantee that the bird is purebreeding for the qualities it demonstrates, so it may not be able to pass those good genes on - or perhaps it can, but only sporadically. So, your champ in the air might have to produce zillions of crappy youngsters to get at the odd little marvel.
And vice versa; birds that weren't so good in the air, or were unflown, might be better at passing on the desirable gene, than the great performers.
I think we all agree, though, that obtaining stock from a good family, is the best means of ensuring the genes are there to begin with. What happens after that is a combination of luck and how we manage the birds.
Shaun
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JMHD
20 posts
Nov 22, 2006
12:15 AM
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The original question was about unproven birds as long as the birds come from a proven line the blood is there. Wayne said they would declyine not true. It is true to fly all and pick birds proven out of the air it is the best way. But if you don't and if the blood is proven sometimes the bird that is kicking ass vs the bird that is just ok or decent the one kicking ass is not the one that is going to produce and the one that is ok is the one that will produce there are no guarantees no dought you should fly out the birds but there are no guarantees John M.
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Ballrollers
490 posts
Nov 22, 2006
9:32 AM
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Good post, Shaun. Thanks for the update on your experience with your birds. You are right on the money about the luck being a big part of it. It sounds similar to the experience one of the guys in my club had. A friend of his won a raffle kit of rollers from a different family than he is raising. Not wanting to bring in genes from a new family, the friend gave the kit away to the guy in our club. He paired up the birds without flying them out, to take his chances. One of the pairs, he named his "Super Cock" line, is producing about 80% or better quality spinners in the offspring!! He had hit on a click pair by chance, and by selection based on type alone. I have seen them perform a number of times this summer, and they are among the fastest spinners I have ever seen; definitely the bluring out type. (I'm stopping by to pick up a pair tonight, since they are the same family as mine!!) It will be interesting to see if the bro/sister offspring pairings will produce the gene package in the same numbers.
YITS,
Cliff
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W@yne
28 posts
Nov 22, 2006
12:05 PM
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Lets all breed from pedigrees and bloodlines,Flyers dont bother watching your birds in the sky to pick your stock birds it don`t matter just breed blind as long as there is blood lines there . If it was as easy as that everyone would fly great birds but it isnt.What i can see on this page is flyers selling their birds for good money to new flyers covering themselves because they give out culls and crap but its ok because the bloodlines are there b--- ---t I maybe wrong but thats the impresssion i am getting.
regards wayne
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fhtfire
655 posts
Nov 22, 2006
12:27 PM
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Wayne,
It think you are missing the point...YES by all means you should fly out your birds and pick from the air...new fliers do not have that luxury. They have to get what they can get. Shaun was right on in his post. Just because a bird is not in his A-team...does not mean there is not good birds. I am not saying for anybody to breed from peds and not fly out there birds. I am talking about a new flier...that does not have that option. There is nothing wrong with getting you first birds from a proven fancier with good stock and breeding the unproven birds and flying out the young. It is a gamble any way you look at it. It is the same has that guy handing you birds from his A-team...you still put them together and fly out the young. You have to start somewhere....If you get 2 pairs from a B-team, young bird team or any "unproven kit bird" you are bound to get a couple of good birds from the pairings that you can circle the wagons around. If you get 3 rounds of each pair and then swap them and get three more rounds....and get around 20 birds...and they come from good stock...you are bound to find out what pairs are good or bad and you are bound to get a couple top quality spinners to start you breeding project. I am not saying that you should just get all your birds and breed of a pedigree. Every situation is different and you have to start somewhere.
Again...I am not saying that you do this every time.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
662 posts
Nov 22, 2006
4:47 PM
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One thing I have learned on this forum is nothing works every time. There are several ways to pick breeders and none is better than the other.
Most of us go thru three or four stages before we finally settle on one family or group of birds. It has been stated several times how to pair and change mates from unproven birds. It has been stated as well that just because one chooses a bird from the air is no guarantee it will be a good breeder. It just has potential. Shaun chose by type from the same group of birds and had a reasonable amount of success as did I when I chose to use the same method.
There is a certain learning curve in this sport that eventually leads to the pot of gold. Key thing is to have a plan and stick to it. Jumping from method to method is more of a setback than subpar stock. Do what feels right and works for you. Ask 5 guys and you`ll get 5 different responses. Be NIKE and just do it.
yits
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2006 4:48 PM
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JMUrbon
62 posts
Nov 22, 2006
10:14 PM
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Wayne, Unfortunately there are some out there that do sell their culls. I personally havent sold more than a half a dozen birds in the last 20 years. These are my hobby not my income. Paper dont roll and Pensom must have bred a million pigeons with unheard of life expectancies. That is what some would lead you to believe. Yes alot of lofts are of Pensom derivation but the man has been gone along time. I keep reading were guys state that after 3-4-5 years they are their own, Then let Pensom rest and quit hanging on his shirt tail. The great families that are out there are there because of the guys that are breeding them now not who bred them 5, 10 , or 20 years ago.Further mor if you go out and buy birds and somebody sells you their culls then shame on you,You should have done your homework. With the internet and the world cup and fall fly there is no reason why anybody should be buying somebodies culls. Get out there and watch some kits and see just what is available. There are so many more quality birds available now days than when I started and I still watched the birds fly befor I purchased them 25 years ago.
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W@yne
29 posts
Nov 22, 2006
10:27 PM
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Good post Jim and i totally agree and sorry if i offended anyone with my last post it is not my style.I just trying to get a point over.
regards W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2006 10:34 PM
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motherlodelofts
966 posts
Nov 22, 2006
10:48 PM
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Wayne you a very very good point.
Scott
PS I'm affended, just not sure why LOL
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JMUrbon
65 posts
Nov 23, 2006
5:02 PM
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Your point was well taken Wayne. I also think that you bring up a good point and I was only trying to add to you post not direct towards you. Keep em comming. Joe Urbon
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