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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Is it ethical to expect something for nothing?
Is it ethical to expect something for nothing?
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Mongrel Lofts
226 posts
Nov 24, 2006
7:20 AM
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I wonder, is it ethical for these new guys getting into rollers to expect 20 or 40 years of flying, selecting, evaluating, culling, feeding, and only breeding from the best for free? What is it about a guy, that he thinks others time, efforts and hard work are worthless? When did expecting to get something for your hard work become unethical. When did asking someone to pay you the value of your product, become a question of ethics? What is it about pigeon people that makes them think they might be owed soemthing for nothing? Is it eithical to expect a mans something for your nothing? Now there is the real ethics question! KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2006 7:30 AM
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RB&R
88 posts
Nov 24, 2006
7:55 AM
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You're right KGB..
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MILO
27 posts
Nov 24, 2006
9:55 AM
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Kenny.
You make a great point here. Takes me a lot of blood sweat and tears to wind up with a few good ones each year, as I'm sure you as well. Giving a few unflown squeaks is one thing...but proven performers is another. I think the guys that wants cheap or free birds should consider what is costs both monetarily and emotionally to get a bird from hatch to stock over a two year period. Seriously, there should be a dollar amount. Each fancier will have a price. It's not a random thing either. Cost of feed, housing, time spent in the yard, and many other factors contribute. Ever sneak home from work to fly a couple young kits? I have...I've done it a lot. There is a risk factor involved. Would you risk your job just to give a couple proven birds from that kit away? I think not. I often hear new fanciers complain on how a guy is "cheap" or "expensive" or even "tight", without understanding what goes on behind it. As for the experience factor, the years of trial, error, observation, and selection translates into dollars. What is it worth? Five bucks a year? LOL I don't know...Nobody should ever expect anything for free. If a proven fancier gives you a bird for free, you should say thank you. If you spend a grip of money on the birds you really desire from a proven fancier, you should still say thank you. Now, if that fancier that just charged you a ton on money, goes even further and helps you pair them up and how to select them...well that my friends, is priceless. There could be a consultation fee there...LOL Far too often do new or inexperienced fliers buy good birds, ruin them, and complain about how they were sold a bum line of individuals. Most experienced roller men endure extreme weather, overflies, losses from predators, sickness, low production numbers, infertility, and many other challenges to put a few good ones away. To assume they should just give them to the new and needy is just ridiculous. To assume there is an endless supply of quality rollers in the world is not realistic either. There is a responsibility for the experienced fancier to promote the breed, get a few decent birds out, create excitement, and to share knowledge, but it certainly doesn't mean he should give the farm away. JMO.
c
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KNIFEMAKER
8 posts
Nov 24, 2006
4:17 PM
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Being new to the hobby and forum I try to read more of the postings rather than talk. This is a subject worthy on comment so I'll throw in a couple cents worth. The old saying that you get what you pay for pretty much holds truth in todays world also. The few birds I have acquired came from well respected gentlemen here in the ozarks and each time I have gone home with more birds than I anticipated for the price I have paid. Being a knifemaker I know the hours I put into my product and its the same with good rollers -- there is always a price to pay for quality (by someone). I have traded knives and paid cash for birds and each time the gentlemen were more than generous probably because they knew from the beginning that I was willing to pay for their time and knowledge ( their years of investment in their birds ). I dont mind paying the price especially if I can trade some of my hard work (handmade knives ) for some of their hard work. They have even offered to continue coaching me along and you cant beat that for good sports in the hobby. I might add that one of these gentlemen has qualified in the past for the world cup and has numerous other acheivements in competitions. These are the kinds of individuals that will assure interest in the hobby. Paul
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spinner jim
10 posts
Nov 24, 2006
4:37 PM
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Great comments from you guys but i look at it this way,its not all about being the best ,or breeding the best or flying the best,its about preserving the hobby, whats the point of having a loft full of fantastic birds and you end up being the only flyer in the neighbourhood ??,we should all encourage new people into the hobby when we can,preserving the future of a very enjoyable pastime,i often give birds free of charge to newcomers to start them off and some of them are decent stock,in some parts of the uk rollers are unheard of when years ago they were plentiful,i think the more fliers around the better it is for everyone,i will certainly do all i can to bring in the young guys to this hobby even if i have to give away good birds to start them off ,keep flying guys.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
847 posts
Nov 24, 2006
6:02 PM
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Hey Jim, what if your hobby is collecting old stamps with various levels of value. Do you just give them away to get other people started, just to preserve the hobby?
Roller pigeons are not popular because they are sometimes given away for free. One main reason the roller pigeon hobby is where it is at is because people have quality stock that performs in a manner that impresses the socks off of newbies who are then bitten by the bug and want some for themselves, not because someone gave some birds away.
If all roller pigeons did was tumble or were all roll downs, I would rather collect stamps.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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CooCoo
21 posts
Nov 24, 2006
6:21 PM
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I got started in this hobby by a good friend who gave me 8 birds and another person i met on here who i now consider a friend gave me 6 birds,,,,,,,I have had many enjoyable mornings over the last 4 months and i owe it too these 2 gentlemen from Ontario here.These birds were given to me free of charge ..........i would have gladly paid for them but they chose not to take any money they just wanted to share the enjoyment they got out of the birds......and i will be doing the same down the road.......life is not always about money...............Dave from Ontario
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rollerman132
31 posts
Nov 25, 2006
12:13 AM
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You can’t get anything in this world for free KGB not even a prim piece of booty, even that will cost you a dinner and a movie.lol
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Alohazona
206 posts
Nov 25, 2006
5:39 PM
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I have mixed emotions about the FREE thing.It seems as though the guys that get bit by the roller pigeon bug can easily go the other way on you.In other words some of these newbies seem interested in the beginning and then fizzle out.Certainly not because others are not helping them along the way.They seem to just want the birds as a novelty,if they are flown for a friend and one or two roll,they proved their point that a bird can spin like a ball
I have offered two fanciers here 10 bird youngster kits,the last guy I told to come and pick what you want out of the air.They both had the same complaint that it was hard to get a hold of good stock.Both were "NO SHOWS",and I haven't heard from them since.They wouldn't even waste a gallon of gas to come look over the birds.So in the future,anyone interested in my birds will pay the going rate,and more likely than not won't be offered to pick from the air.Sometimes try as you may,people will not maintain their level of interest and the birds get a bad rap.BTW,one of these same fanciers was given 2 pair of proven breeders froma guy who was getting out of birds,that had been in rollers since the late 60's,the breeder had to drive the birds to this guys house,of course FOR FREE,WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?????....Aloha,Todd
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fhtfire
667 posts
Nov 25, 2006
6:21 PM
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Here is how I look at it...if you pay for something you take care of it. That is how I was raised...you work for the money...pay for the item...you will take care of it. It is that simple. But it works the other way to .....if you really have nothing and someone gives something to you...you take care of it...but those days are over. My old man was born during the great depression...and if you give him something....still to this day...he takes care of it and he would rather build something himself the buy it. People these days...seem to get everything handed to them and then they do not respect it. I am trying to instill this in my kids...if they want something they have to earn it....that all started when my son left his bike out in the street when he was 8....I said pick up your bike or someone will steal it or your mom will run it over on accident...he told me...you will buy me a new one....guess what..I picked up that bike and took it to the migrant housing in our area and asked the housing manager which family's kid would want the bike the most...he pointed me in the direction and I gave this kid a new bike. My kid had to mow lawns and do chores for grandma until he bought a new bike...guess what...he treated that thing like gold after that.
Same goes for pigeons...I usually only give real good birds to new fliers that have been flying for awhile and proved they are into it....or new fliers will get OK birds for free until they prove themselves. I also agree that it takes time to feed, medicate, vaccinate, build lofts, feed vitamins, hours of watching, culling, banding and so on...that my friend is worth something. I mostly charge something...but it depends on the time of year, mood I am in..LOL!...it is all about being at the right place at the right time...you buy the birds..you take more care of them.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Electric-man
41 posts
Nov 25, 2006
6:50 PM
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Last spring,I bought 10 birds for $250. I got a long story about 23yrs experience and world class birds, yada,yada,yada! Put a ton of time into them, fighting canker, the coopers, fly them almost every day with hope of seeing them start rolling,nothing! I called him the other day and he said he got rid of them, new family, weren't worth having! I won't bother mentioning names or family of birds but it was disapionting to say the least.
Luckily, I made a couple of other purchases and think I was treated very well and should have good birds.BUT, if they don't, don't you guys set around and talk your selves into hating the new guys,LOL!I am planning on being one of those "pigeon nuts" from now on. I plan on giving my birds plenty of time, but if they don't work out, I'm gonna need one of you guys to step up to the plate and sell me some decent birds,damn it! So no more of this "new guy" bashing!LOL That stuff spreads like a plague!
Bye the way, I don't plan on something for nothing, but I would like get what I'm paying for!
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2006 6:53 PM
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George Ruiz
130 posts
Nov 25, 2006
7:23 PM
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When I worked @ Santa Anita racetrack for years I was stabled next to D.Wayne Lukas who won the Kentucky derby
a couple of times .
you think he would have gave me a few good horses for free if I would have asked ??
George
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2006 9:50 PM
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centralvalleylofts
41 posts
Nov 25, 2006
11:53 PM
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you know i was just wondering if any of you guys remember being young. and wanting a puppy then likely your fathers
would say your not old enough. or not responsible enough.
well gents thats exactly what some not all!!!!!!!! but some
me included. of our dedicated members feel about their birds
if they gave someone a bird do they show appreciation or do
they talk trash about the person who bred the birds. as for
me i have been fortunate to be at the right place at the right
time.some have spend a small fortune on their stock.and time
away from famaly developing their line. they have sacraficed
famaly time for their passion.how many newbies can say that
they are willing to do this and inturn give their birds away.
for when i say birds i mean top quality birds.and not mediocare birds.and if they do give birds away they never get
a call back. as to say how the stock ended working for them.
or just plain simply. a guy gets birds from a source after a
small time with them they give them away. before even giving
the person who gave the birds a chance of getting any of them back.i for one have given hundreds of birds away.
and never asking for anything in returned. but i have also
never paid for the birds i have now.but have paid time, effort,sweat,tears,money for resources food,medecine,vitamins,ect.but i have never given birds to
someone that did not really have an enthusiasm about our hobby. steve
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2006 11:54 PM
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JMUrbon
75 posts
Nov 26, 2006
11:15 AM
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You know I agree with you Steve. I dont sell birds and all I have ever asked from anybody that has got birds from me is to keep me informed and in exchange I tell them if they dont work together I will find something that will. That is all most guys are looking for is to know that the birds they gave or sold sombody are working out for them. Instead you get the name bashing and the old ( So and So's birds arent worth s--t). Most breeders will help you along in becomming sucessful if you allow them to.Joe Urbon
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2006 11:15 AM
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Double D
283 posts
Nov 26, 2006
4:53 PM
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I'm still a newbie, (I've been in rollers just about a year now) and I approached getting birds from the standpoint that I needed to prove to the fancier that I was serious, both in my communications with him and in the amount that I paid. I started by having a lot of respect for the hard work the fancier had put into his family and let him know I would do my best not to screw that up. I think an initial investment shows that at least the new guy is serious enough to put some money on the line. If a new guy is fortunate enough to get birds from a well known, successful fancier, I think there is a certain level of reporting back to that fancier on how things are going. Under no circumstances should the new guy take advantage of the name behind their family of birds to exploit them for profit. It's all about respect, for the person you got birds from, for the unwritten code of ethics that exists among roller flyers, for the hobby, and for the birds themselves.
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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dave
211 posts
Nov 26, 2006
5:10 PM
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My best birds were given to me. I got my first full kit and some breeders from Tom Browers. Later I picked up my number one breeding cock from Aris Punla and then some birds from Joe Emberton. I think that if new guys (like me) are serious than some of the more established guys wouldn't mind sharing some of their birds. They just want to make sure the birds will be put to good use and not used as a selling point. This is my 2nd year raising birds and I think that I have done pretty good with the birds. I have given away birds and I all I ask is the guys to give me an update on how the birds do so I will know which pairs to concentrate on. Most of the time I never hear from some of these guys again.
It's real tough for me to give away some of my top birds in my #1 team when I need them myself to get my program going forward. I have given some away and I regretted it because the guys lost them due to not taking care of them or flying them when they already saw them fly at my place. Sometimes not just seeing them fly once but many times already and after asking me many times for the bird to just loose them instead of stocking them.
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2006 5:14 PM
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