MILO
33 posts
Nov 26, 2006
1:00 PM
|
Hi Guys.
Since money seems to be a hot topic...LOL Wayne had me thinking on the cage roller post. The cage shows have a bigger turnout, and a better timeline, hence bringing in a greater amount of money. Have any of you guys out there had club flies where there was some good money at stake? Could a big money fly, basically charging a greater entry fee, and giving the proceeds to some charity worth consideration? With 1st place maybe getting the entry fee back? Is this something some of the clubs have done? Or is a recipe for disaster, where the judges subjectivity leaves the grown men fighting like little girls? LOL
Just wondering.
c
|
dave
208 posts
Nov 26, 2006
2:12 PM
|
Milo, our area has a futurity fly and it is fun. Fee is $25 for 5 bands. Don O. judged us last year. Basically, you band what you think are your best squekers and fly them out and than when the judge comes you pick your best one. You can fly it in a kit of what ever # but the judge will only score that one bird according to the 11 bird rule.
|
MILO
34 posts
Nov 26, 2006
3:09 PM
|
That's great. Ya, I heard about it. 25 dollars for 5 birds is a bargain. How about 25 dollars a bird next time? Or 50 per bird? I have been really thinking about the respectability of the breed in comparison to the Racing Homer. I have this feeling that the Birmingham Roller is not as prized or admired globally as the Homer is, and as a result does not command higher prizes in flies. This is really unfortunate, because flying these birds of ours and competing successfully is tremendously challenging. What do you guys think? It is seen perhaps as an oddity, and perhaps if given more exposure can open us up for criticism. Perhaps we are afraid "certain groups" will see our selection of this trait of rolling as cruel. Who knows... As for competition, I think the main problem is the judging by different individuals, and a set standard of judging. The subjectivity is removed in the Homer game. Bird flies from point A, and arrives at point B. Fastest bird wins. Pretty clear cut. I wonder if there is a way to cut through this problem in Rollers. Just thinking out loud...LOL Any ideas?
c
|
Velo99
673 posts
Nov 26, 2006
4:14 PM
|
Milo,
I was reading a business article a while back.I don`t remember the particulars other than this.
A comapny went to an advertizing firm saying their top seller for years had fallen way off. They had discounted the prices and still was losing market shares to the competetion.The advertizer changed the package and doubled the price. The product regained it`s share plus a point or two. Maybe we are being out priced. If we had $10,000 dollar flies we could generate the interst the racers do.
mtc
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
MILO
35 posts
Nov 26, 2006
4:40 PM
|
Exactly!
I mean no disrespect to the Homer guys, but we don't get the respect for the BR's...They are just as complex a breed, and quite frankly, much more interesting. Big time entry fees might price out some of the guys that can't put up the $$$'s, and some might claim it would be a de-motivator, but it shouldn't keep anyone from enjoying them privately or in club flies. If someone wanted to play with the big boys, then they would have to put up some money. Works for poker, horses, and lots of other things. JMO.
c
|
dave
210 posts
Nov 26, 2006
5:00 PM
|
I don't think you will get too many guys putting up big money for a fly but the way that we did it, it was affordable and you didn't loose a lot if you lost. There was a first, 2nd, and 3rd place finisher. I believe the 1st got 60% of the pot, 2nd got 30% and 3rd got 10% after all expenses have been taken out (bands, gas for the judge, and feeding the judge). It would be hard on a national or very big region but I think that clubs can do it and it will be fun. This will be the 2nd year we will be doing this.
|
MILO
36 posts
Nov 26, 2006
5:37 PM
|
What perplexes me is the same guy that wouldn't put up a hundred bucks to enter a kit, or maybe 200 bucks, would easily, and I mean EASILY blow a couple grand in the casinos. Maybe rollers aren't as important as fueling a gambling urge. Two fill-ups at the pump for most is close to $100. Wouldn't it be cool to put up a killer kit, take first place, and make a couple thou? Beats a pat on the back for all the hard work. It would sure bring out the hard core guys. Ok, I'm going to Cosco with the kids now, so I can spend 200 bucks on a bunch of bananas, some refills for my razor, and a block of cheese we don't need. LOL
c
|
Mongrel Lofts
227 posts
Nov 26, 2006
6:36 PM
|
Hey Milo,
I doubt most roller guys would be up for a 10 thousand dollar entry fee but, I do think money flys are a much needed thing in the roller game.. Just look at the success the California classic had while it was running.. The entry was $150 bucks,, top prize was 2,000 and they had guys waiting in line to enter.. It ran for over 10 years with full boxes and having to turn guys down every year.. Predator and the new diseases that came on the scene more or less shut it down.. To bad nothing has come along to take its place.. I think the roller world is ready for a money fly, we just have to come up with a format that doesn't involve sending all the birds to one loft.. If they get something going, I'm in!! KGB
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
822 posts
Nov 26, 2006
7:51 PM
|
The futurity type stuff is common with the show breeds. We do it in several of our show clubs and the birds are judged at the annual show or the nats, winner takes all. It's been popular for years, but doesn't cost an arm and a leg either.
The difference with the money involved with racing homers versus rollers is that with racing homers, the money purses are usually part of the futurity races. Most club and combine racing doesn't offer much in the way of cash prizes unless they set it up that way. Most racing homer guys I know around here spend more than they ever earn from their club purses. But the big money is in the futurity races where the entry costs can be substantial, but the purses are more than most of us will make at our jobs over the course of several years to a decade...lol.
I agree with KGB that the futurity flys like the CC was the key way to bring cash prizes into the roller landscape. The problem was, and Kenny noted, preds and sickness. There are very few places around the country anymore where a futurity manager can fly the birds for 6-9 months without losing a bunch.
The race managers experience problems with various ailments too, but they have established a good system of containing and treating the situations. For the most part, racer fanciers run a pretty tight ship which increases the safeguards of having a healthy futurity flock. A lot, probably too many, roller guys aren't as clinical about their loft managing and the result is a wide range of sicknesses that make their way into a futurity fly, ruining it for everyone.
I truly hope someone somewhere would get another Cal Classic or something similar going as it makes for a good time and a level of prestige for those who's birds do well and get the owner a fat wad of cash.
Bottom line is that as much as we want and wish, the roller hobby is a blue collar affair. You won't see guys lining up to enter $150 kit competitions like they do for large flys, regardless of the purse.
|
Velo99
675 posts
Nov 27, 2006
3:55 AM
|
Betcha Tyson would play if we invited him to a $10k fly.
lol
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
Velo99
676 posts
Nov 27, 2006
3:58 AM
|
I would pay in as much as $500.00 to compete in a big money fly
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2006 3:59 AM
|
W@yne
36 posts
Nov 27, 2006
9:06 AM
|
Personally i think this sport will be doomed the day money starts changing hands for big cash pots to be won. I think you would get bent judges who would take backhanders for a share of the prize money.Judges would favour friends that are flying in the competition, flyers lending out their best birds to another flyer and sharing the pot the list goes on. Think about it!! You might say i am going over the top but over in this country many racing pigeon flyers have been banned from the sport through cheating ie having birds that land at friends loft 20 mile away from his loft and clocking them as they have landed in the flyers loft easily knocking 15 minutes or more from the time then sharing prize money.Why would you want prize money ? I would swap any amount of money to win major fly`s.
What i am trying to say is when money comes into any sport you get cheats,Dont let this hobby go like the racing pigeon fly`s. Just my opinion I might be wrong i might be right.You need to think long and hard regarding this subject. I know you guys probly wont agree with me.
regards W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2006 9:37 AM
|
J_Star
697 posts
Nov 27, 2006
10:32 AM
|
I agree with you 100%. It is prone for a disaster....Jay
|
Mongrel Lofts
229 posts
Nov 27, 2006
1:21 PM
|
Hey Wayne/Jay,
I agree with you about 13% on thisLOL.. Of course money brings a whole new set of responsibility's to competition.. There is always going to be those shady characters and low lifes trying to cheat.. Even at playing checkers.. Is this good reason for us not to strive to better our sport? Does anything worth doing ever get done without a little risk or chance of failure and corruption? Is the fact someone could or might cheat, a good reason not to strive to make our sport better? To raise the Birmingham roller to another level of competition.. Money can make some bad apples cheat! It can also make the many more honest guys try harder to fly the best! Bring their stock to a higher level.. Money flys should not be the only flys going.. I just think they should be out there, for those who have the Balls to try. For those who don't find excuses not to compete and fear what bad mite happen if I try..For those who see the cup half full, not half empty. Money on its own don't make Competition bad. Just like guns on their own don't kill people.. Bad people can ruin anything good!! Good people take those same tools and make great things happen. We can't hold the sport back or drag the breed down because we fear the cheaters.. Find the cheaters and cull em!! Lets not throw the Golden opportunity's out with the TRASH!! Just my honest opinion,, KGB
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2006 1:31 PM
|
Ballrollers
492 posts
Nov 27, 2006
3:54 PM
|
The biggest potential problem is that with racing homers, it's hard to argue with a difinitive "time". It's solid...easy to tell the winner....not open to someone's "opinion" to define the winner. With roller competitions, as with any esthetic competition sport, like figure skating, gymnastics, etc., any time an "opinion" determines the winner, it's a big can of worms. "Opinions" are too easily influenced by big money. It would require, at the very least, a panel of judges that would average out the scores for the final result. It would be tough to pull off, because integrity is essential, if you expect any level of participation. Any hint of bias and it comes crashing down. JMHO.
Cliff
|
MILO
38 posts
Nov 27, 2006
6:23 PM
|
Jay, Wayne.
A little faith in humanity guys. Don't be so quick to assume money turns people crooked. Besides, You must not be from around these parts. A crooked judge, and any other participating parties would enjoy a ride in the back of a spacious trunk. You can believe that.
c
|
smk
15 posts
Nov 27, 2006
8:00 PM
|
i for one like the idea but i do believe it would take some thoughtful planning i like the panel of judges idea sounds like a start to something good
smk
|
W@yne
37 posts
Nov 27, 2006
9:34 PM
|
What would motivate you guys more?
Entering your birds in the world cup quals or even world cup finals ?
Or entering them in a 2000,000 dollar prize money pot?
I know what i would be more motivated towards and it wouldn`t be the money. I still dont think it would work over here.Flyers gettin scores that thought they deserved more even now ive seen arguing amongst flyers could result in even fighting because of the cash involed with these fly`s.But if you do start using money i think a panel of judges sounds a good idea then average the 3 scores.I just hope its a way forward for your guys and not a recepe for disaster.Like i said im totally against these money fly`s I just hope you guys prove me wrong.If this is a way forward for you guys i wish you best of luck.
regards W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2006 10:09 PM
|
MILO
39 posts
Nov 27, 2006
10:12 PM
|
Wayne.
Why not do both? I participate in as many events as I can now. What's the big deal? Why is it a recipe for disaster guys? I would think more events and competitions would be good for the hobby. It creates excitement. It drives the sport forward. I don't know about you Wayne, but I am bored off my ass waiting for the WC to come around every year, not to mention it is usually scheduled around the time I am sustaining huge losses from raptors. Sure it's a great event, and the most prestigious one on the planet, but it is just one event. I personally, need more to keep me interested. The FF? Oh ya, every year I get ready for that one and the preds have eaten half of my yearlings by then...LOL What is the big deal I say? So there is a jackass here and there... Weed them out. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, and this is definitely one of those times. I hear a lot about how the hobby is thriving, but don't see it at all. We need to drive the hobby forward. If you don't want to participate, you won't be forced...so then there is no need to be paranoid about dishonesty right? LOL So many bad ideas have turned out to be the best ideas of them all.
c
|
centralvalleylofts
42 posts
Nov 28, 2006
3:42 AM
|
you know i dont like the world cup prelims some people have the better dates we always have the darn early spring with fog
and preds. you just dont have a chance to qualify or the amount of time to train your birds. common sence shit in march
in the central valley.who fr@##@en though of this crap.
as for money fly hell yeah. for once i think we would all be equals in competion.steve.
|
ROLLERMAN
45 posts
Nov 28, 2006
7:39 AM
|
Steve
What makes you think that it will be different, when you have 2 or 3 hundred people flying. some ones is always going to be on the short end of things, There are just to many variables involved in times and dates. You have a problem with fog. The next guy has a prolem with hawks, The next with high winds and so on. There not going away weather your flying for cups or for bucks, The only way i see this working is to fly at a local level pick a winner. And then have a national fly. Just my opinion.
al
|
Ballrollers
493 posts
Nov 28, 2006
8:54 AM
|
So, if you were in charge, MILO, since you appear to be pretty "gung ho" on the idea, what dates would you fly the event, so that it would be fair to everyone who antes up a hefty registration fee, considering hawk migration, weather (primarily the heat), and the seasonal moult?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2006 8:56 AM
|
motherlodelofts
976 posts
Nov 28, 2006
9:49 AM
|
Al, you hit the nail on the head, there really is no perfect time ,the hot summer months is the only time that I say don't bother , otherwise it is almost the luck of the draw as far as the right conditions , the same month from year to year can be like night and day as far as conditions , making your own luck with these birds also goes a long way.
Scott
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
825 posts
Nov 28, 2006
10:47 AM
|
Best month to fly across the board is June. Everyone is flying every day in June.
|
MILO
40 posts
Nov 28, 2006
11:15 AM
|
Gee Cliff...I don't think I am "gung-ho" about much of anything...lol I think June is good. Also, depends on what kind of fly. For a 20 bird kit competition, June would be ideal. For a Cal Classic style event, surely we can find someone somewhere that is hassle free for "most" of the year. YEEEHHAAAAAA!
c
|
knaylor
317 posts
Nov 28, 2006
11:23 AM
|
Steve, what are you talking about?? Our w/c qualifier is allways in the middle of April. No fog and everyone has the same opportunity to qualify.
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
826 posts
Nov 28, 2006
11:34 AM
|
Kevin, I think he means the trying to condition the kits which means flying in March, or don't fly at all. Personally I hate april, barometer is all over the board like a ping pong ball. Hate it, but it is the same for most everyone in this region.
Milo, you are gung-ho, among a series of other things I can't mention on a public site. Wake a bear, prepare to hear a growl or two..lol
|
nicksiders
868 posts
Nov 28, 2006
3:19 PM
|
Goosh, put money in this and then see how agressive people can get. I don't know if the hobby can survive the money thing, wow! I think some judges would be buried under somebody's loft within the year. Hell, we got guys fighting now.
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2006 6:01 PM
|
sundance
36 posts
Nov 28, 2006
5:33 PM
|
I have to say I agree with the idea that money would be a downfall for the club flys. Guarantees fighting and arguments. Judges will be harrassed, bad mouthed and possibly assaulted by the BAD APPLES who dont know how to lose with grace.
WE already have fighting among the ranks. Every list has had posts about this judge or that who is loose in this area or too tight in that area. I think it would even be difficult to find judges willing to put themselves up for that kind of scrutiny by the BACKSEET DRIVERS.
If a money fly were to take place I believe it woould need to be totally non club sanctioned. Hopefully leaving the clubs out of the after affects.
The idea of a panel of judges might be the answer.Each one submitting their voting annonamously. This could curb the judging problems of most all flys , even club flys.
And , yes if this could get off the ground and become a possitive for the hobby then I would be willing to participate. But, boy ,O, boy, I sure can see ill affects if not thought out carefully and done with every possible protection from Favortism being an ingrediant in the winning kit.
|
Velo99
677 posts
Nov 29, 2006
5:12 AM
|
Sounds like we might need the services of an attorney to set up the infrastructure. Since most of them are motivated to find the loopholes in the system,this could be a good thing.
If we are talking about a real money fly, we need to hammer out a guide line of what it is we want to happen. Given the amount of money we were talking about,how many prizes should be given? Break it into several categories or go for winner takes all? 50/50 split with half going to a charity? If we involve a charity, a) good deed and possible news coverage. b)would help to ease the mind of the players who don`t place.c)Tax deduction for donating to charity.
I have a CPA who would probably do the financial for us.
Three judges instead of one. Three times the expense,Fly time? BMC said June is a good month. Works for me. Number of entries and the entry fee amount.Any of you guys who have experience organizing an event,feel free to chime in. Lets see if it actually feasible to do before we start looking at the dark side of the hobby. lol
I can make a couple of calls and get bids from my CPA and attorney when we get some actual numbers of participants.
Wanna sponsor the event Tony?
The Roller Pigeon.Com Charity Super Fly.Has a ring to it.
yits
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
J_Star
701 posts
Nov 29, 2006
7:30 AM
|
In my opinion…if you guys are talking about generating money to the cub and what have you, then why don’t you consider adding the 11 birds fly to the W/C and the NBRC fall fly first? That would generate tons of money. Think out side the box folks… then adding another fly for money would be another consideration to promote the hobby further, if you think it will.
Jay
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
851 posts
Nov 29, 2006
10:30 AM
|
Hey V99, I am thinking along the same lines...let the pot simmer some more.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
nicksiders
869 posts
Nov 29, 2006
11:42 AM
|
I agree with Kenny. We would have to sit down and hash this around (a commitee, maybe). The ground rules and procedures(planning) is crucial. Then once this is agreed on (by the commitee) the rules need to be heavily enforced. Eliminate the grey areas(no loopholes). This would be done seperate of the WC or the NBRC Fall Fly and not replacement for them. Maybe make it a requirement that participation in one or both of these events is manditory. Got to make sure this does not distract from these two events, but enhances them. Bring in commercial interests as well..........feed companys, etc.
My thoughts
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
centralvalleylofts
43 posts
Nov 29, 2006
6:30 PM
|
well the homer guys already fly for money and big money at that. why not at least 200 birds etered by drawing if to many participants.thats 8 kits. to start then after a period of 4 months of fly time have the first fly with the three choosen
judges by eliminating half the field. leaves 4 kits or 100 birds rotating morning flights. so all the birds have an equal
training time. remember that with todays technology we could
observe without ever being there.such as 24 hour web-cam
so theres no foul play.second fly down to three kits. last but
not least the final flys saturday with the choosen top 11 birds of the fly for sunday for the choosen winners.at 100 per bird with 50 xtra for replacement with in the firt month.
thats 20,000 total cash break down 5000 winner 3000 second and
1500 third. the first 20 birds after get their entrys back.
thats a total of 11,500 payback with about 3000 for the throphys and food for the last fly.and the rest goes the flyer for feed and care.which is not much for the equiptment
and set-up. then we could have a classic again.and then you have your auctions of the birds and some somes. to build the
funds for next year and so on.
just my thoughts. steve
|
katyroller
105 posts
Nov 29, 2006
7:06 PM
|
I would personally be up for small money flys but I can also see it causing alot of issues. How would we handle weather and time of day. I have been on flies and overheard guys grumbling that their birds fly better during the morning or during the evening. I've seen days where the guys that flew during the morning definitely had better weather to fly in due to high afternoon/evening humidity or winds that picked up.
How do you determine who gets to fly? I've met two former racers who claimed they were run out of race clubs. Did some reasearch and found 1 was because he was always argumentative. Another one was accused of cheating because he partnered with a guy that was supposed to have a better location to race from. Maybe sour grapes but they both had good race records.
Sounds like a good idea but someone is always going to claim they got cheated when money is involved. Just my 2 cents.
|
George Ruiz
131 posts
Nov 29, 2006
8:30 PM
|
whatever the fly and price count me in !!!
George
|
Velo99
678 posts
Nov 30, 2006
4:46 AM
|
I think we could set up a protest system like the local club has. If you want to protest a decision a $25.00 non refundable "administrative fee" is to be paid,cash,on the spot to register a protest. In this format I was thinking more like $150.00 for the admin fee. This will weed the flyers with a real beef from the grumblers.
Put up or shut up!
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
J_Star
702 posts
Nov 30, 2006
4:53 AM
|
They will put up but they will expect allot in retrun. Otherwise, you got a major issue on your hand!!!
Jay
|
Velo99
682 posts
Nov 30, 2006
1:39 PM
|
J,
I was snowed out today. I put some figures together and think it would work out with a really nice payoff both for the winner(s) and a selected charity. It will be pricey though.Big fee,big payoff
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
centralvalleylofts
44 posts
Nov 30, 2006
6:13 PM
|
some futurities already have 24 hour web cam and as for the birds flying better in the morning or evening thats hear say and thats that.like the saying goes put up or shut up im sure that in southern cali. alone there are enough flyers that would be willing and able to have their own classic. but as for the rest of us.we have to move forward its a long time coming.not only will you generate more interest in the hobby
but you will create an awareness of how important this birds
really are to some people.at one time this was a pass-time in
the taverns of england. and now let the new generation begin
a new an exciting game. aslo as for those with color birds
their would be no descriminating as for the bird must perform
in accordance with the perfect speed,balance,and depht.
that and kiting ability that will make it a winner.as for more info
get in contact with dan and don oullette as for they were the
ones that ran and organized the california classic. and see
if they are willing to help out and be part of the new classic.
my 2 cents. steve
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2006 6:16 PM
|
katyroller
107 posts
Dec 01, 2006
6:53 AM
|
Centralvalleylofts, What month(s) would you propose the fly be conducted? If it is during the summer months, time of day will definitely make a difference for my location due to humidity and that is a fact. Remember not everyone has the weather conditions you enjoy in So.Cal..
|
centralvalleylofts
45 posts
Dec 01, 2006
9:29 PM
|
well if you could fly great. but if you have fog from now till
march and you cant fly.what the hell would i want to pay for a
fly that just aint going to happen.i do understand that no weather maybe perfect but if you cant fly what the hell.i would rather have humidity than fog so thick that you can only see 10 to 40 feet. i think that to have enough time to retrain
the kit you would need atleast two good months of flying.if you have clear skys. great but remember that soon after we
have the predators flying north so a little snack on the way
through my area yum-yum. lol.so as to answer your question in my area it have to be mid-may. then have the finals in june.
again my two cents. steve
p.s. im in the central valley in central california and it gets hotter than hell in the summer months here.
i would say we would only get about 6 to 7 good months to train young birds if your lucky enough not to have predetors stick around.chao.
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2006 9:33 PM
|