nicksiders
877 posts
Dec 02, 2006
8:27 AM
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It has been my experience that you don't know how solid of a performer you're going to have in a bird until the bird is about two years old. I would not concider stocking a bird until it is that age. So why do we even start talking about a bird's performance when it is just months old? How it performs at 8 or 9 months doesn't tell you a thing about what it will be like when it is stockable age.
How old does your birds have to be before you consider stocking it?
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
859 posts
Dec 02, 2006
9:00 AM
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Nick.I will stock a roller as early as 6 month old if it has the roll I like and I need it in my program.But for the most part I usually don't stock any untill after their second Fall.Which by then are very close to being 2 years old.
Paul had asked a question on another thread how a 2005 roller could be a proven breeder.
I put my pairs together the week of Thanksgiving.I like everything paired up before our rifle season for deer starts the monday after Thanksgiving.My first round is usually banded shortly after the middle of Dec.This first round is banded with the new year bands.These rollers are usually what I compete with in the NBRC Fall Fly their first Fall.If I have some exceptional rollers I will put them in and breed a few rounds from them and then bring them back out to fly again.Then after their second Fall if they are still doing what I want I will stock them for good.
By this time their young that I raised from them are usually doing their thing also.So to make a long thing short a 2005 roller can be a Proven Breeder.Just depends on who the breeder is and how hard they work their rollers. David
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fhtfire
679 posts
Dec 02, 2006
12:43 PM
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Dave,
I will have to respectfully disagree. You can't possible get a good guage on a pair if they have one year under there belt and the young are only 6-8 months old and doing it. I have had birds doing it at 6-8 months old and turn south by the year mark...maybe roll down...or not kit...or follow the kit in the rear...no way can you tell a pair is proven if it is the year 06 and the birds are 05. Maybe the term proven means something different to me than you. To me proven..is a pair of breeders that throw a high % of A-team quality rollers...year in and year out. If you have an early 05 pair lets say Jan 1st they are hatched...you fly the birds out a good year to Jan 06...then put them in the stock loft....so your first round will be hatched about Feb 1st (if everything works out) then another three weeks and weaning...now you are looking at March 06 they are maybe in the air learning to kit.....the bird comes into the roll a couple months later..lets say June 06..that is about 4 months old....then by August the bird is really starting to turn it on...that is 6 months old...but the point is...I saw some stuff for sale...that said proven breeders that were 05 and the date was around August...How can that be...the offspring would only be about 6 months old and those are not proven offspring or proven breeders...and that is in a perfect world were everything worked out perfect....so a prove pair of breeders is just 1 round...lest say you foster and get 2 or 3 rounds...that is 20 days difference between the ages...do to 10 days between laying....so a new pair of young birds will lay right at 10 days...SOMETIMES...anyway...to me...I can do the math and that does not seem right...now a couple years of breeding....with 3 or 4 rounds totally flown out...and 3 or 4 rounds still in the kit box and are about 10 months old and doing great...that is what I would say....would be proven breeders....04 birds are pushing it in 06. You don't have to work any harder to get proven breeders...What do you consider working harder to get 05 birds as proven breeders.....I think I work pretty hard with my birds...do the math Dave...it does not seem right to me...to sell 05 birds as proven breeders in 06. Just like it does not seem right to pull a bird from the air at 6 months old and sell it as a proven performer...or pulling a bird from the air in 6 months and stocking it....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
82 posts
Dec 02, 2006
1:00 PM
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I have not seen anything regarding selling proven 05 breeders in 06 but I think it is impossible. I wont put near as much thought as Paul did into this. I will just tell you it is impossible. I said this befor and I will say it again. They will all breed but just breeding does not make them proven breeders. Like Paul stated You need some history there befor you can call them proven breeders.
To me the only reason that a bird should be stocked prior to at least a year old is if one or both parents die or are lost. Then I would think that they would have to be an awsome bird with awsome sibblings. Proven doesnt just mean they produced 1 great bird. To me it means they do it consistantly and THAT is why you dont find any of the top fliers selling Proven pairs unless they are making room for some of their offspring. They are just to dam hard to come by. Joe Urbon
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 1:01 PM
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motherlodelofts
1005 posts
Dec 02, 2006
1:12 PM
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Nick, if you fly a bird two years you know exactly what that bird is made of and the evaluation of that bird started from the day it took it's first flight < it is impossible to evaluate a birds worth in the first 6-9 months , some just show you more potential than others.
Nick after you left last night me, Tony and Wayne were talking about birds that bumped or had accidents even when young and whether such birds should be bred of , it's funny I don't think that I would have agreed with them but it got me thinking, all the birds that I have stocked overthe past 6 years to now never ever bumped or had an accident , these were the best birds in the air also, good depth, solid kitters, frequent but not over frequent, and the best as far as qaulity , funny how valuable that little topic that we were on was to me.
In turn I get very few that bump or have accidents any more even when young.
It never ceases to amaze me how the slightest of traits are passed along with these birds and no doubt your selection weather good or bad to even the slightest of faults is what direction your birds will take.
As for the "proven" breeders that these feather merchants are selling , well you and I know the truth LOL .
It takes me no less than 2 years to proove out a "prooven" producer , 3 years is more like it.
Sure I get birds rolling out of un prooven producers within 5-6 months, but that means noting except maybe it has potential and that is a bib big maybe, at 18 mo plus are they still holding it ? , and the number one question is ,what is the qaulity like ? what about depth ? did they turn to stiffs or fall apart ? what were the percentages of truelly good one's ? how did they produce on other mates ? Now if you get a bird where you can answer I'll give it a "B" in all area's that is what "I" consider a prooven producer, anything else is just sub standard.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 1:32 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
860 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:05 PM
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Paul.Well I don't set my goals as high as you and Scott.At my age I don't have time to wait 3 years to find out if the bird may make some mistake or produce 90% A-Team birds.To me those kind of birds are Click birds.And yes I guess they would be proven.
To me if a roller can do it for 9 month and do it right and be able to produce young that are rolling properly then they are Proven.
If I want to sell a 2005 roller that is coming on to 2 years old and done this much and someone wants to buy it from me does that make me a Feather Merchant as Scott likes to call anyone who sells a pigeon?
Yes I have done my math many times and what I found is I have to do what works for me.I am proud of my family of rollers and what they have accomplished.You asked me how a 2005 could be called a Proven breeder and I told you what I do.
It may not be to your liking or to some others but I am happy with them and what I do and I sleep nights when I go to bed with a clear concience.
I have never took anyone in any of my dealings in life under false pretenses.David
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motherlodelofts
1006 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:10 PM
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Dave , I have no doubt that you have the best of intentions, nor do I think that you would "purposly" ever take advantage of anyone, for what it is worth I think that your charactor is top notch.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
861 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:14 PM
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Scott.You made a tear come to my eye.I hope you mean it.If not I will take it as a compliment anyway.LOL.David
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JMUrbon
83 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:16 PM
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Well David, I have to agree with you. I do things my way and as well you should too. The only concern that I have is weather you are telling whom ever purchases these proven breeders what they are getting. What I mean by that is as long as you are up front than that is all anybody can ask for. That is alot more than alot of guys do.
Would you be willing to give a guy another pair free gratis if one of your proven young pairs doesnt produce the goods for him like they did for you. That to me is the confidence that somebody should have if they are advertising proven breeders. I am sure that you mean no harm and are probably letting some good birds go so dont take my questioning the wrong way I am curious is all. Joe Urbon
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motherlodelofts
1007 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:19 PM
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Of coarse I mean't it Dave, I wouldn't have wrote it otherwise , I've allways liked you Dave , nothing wrong with bumping heads here and these , hell I can hear my old ram butting the telephone pole out there as I write this, he still like's that old pole even though LOL .
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2006 2:23 PM
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W@yne
39 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:22 PM
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LETS ALL KISS N MAKE UP LOL
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motherlodelofts
1008 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:25 PM
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Love fest Wayne LOL
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Electric-man
45 posts
Dec 02, 2006
2:44 PM
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I'll be dang, three days of growling,spitting,snarling,and snapping, and you guys can still shake hands and head back to your corners! True competitors, that can show respect for each other at the end of all this. Ther is definatly a lesson here!Good job guys!JMO
P.S.- Tony, what was you saying about things correcting themselves,huh!
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nicksiders
879 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:36 PM
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David is respected by all as is Scott. Thier knowledge is great and they put a lot of work and thought in this hobby. They just don't agree on somethings and are very intense in thier beliefs............and I love them both(LOL) I really do!
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Snicker Rollers
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fhtfire
680 posts
Dec 02, 2006
3:43 PM
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Dave,
I hope you don't take anything I said out of context...I was just respectfully disagreeing with you. It is just that we both have a different outlook on what a proven pair is. That is fine...I was not talking about you when I said that I have seen birds that were 05 and proven pairs...I was just saying that I have seen it. Just like Joe says...as long as you or anybody for that matter is up front....and let them know what they have produced and at what age you pulled the birds from the air and then the buyer can make the choice on weather to buy or not. It is just when I say that a pair is proven...it has produced very good birds for at least two years of breeding. Not a click pair...makes a proven pair...just good solid producers. You don't have to fly a bird out for 2 years to see its worth...in my birds I give them anywhere from a year to 15months of flying before I pull them...anyway..you are right..you can do what you want with your birds....I was just throwing it out there. I hope I did not offend you with my post...I respect you as a person and a flier...But I think you already know that.
I would say we will have a group hug..but I know Scott gets a little wierded out about my ear rings..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
862 posts
Dec 02, 2006
6:38 PM
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Paul.No I did not get offended.You know me better than that.And while I think about it I had thought you had got the Turner family when you started.I also had quite a few Masons and they didn't suit me either.Altho after flying some for a couple years and learning the family better I wish I had kept some of the old breeders that I had.
Scott,Nick,Yourself and a couple others on here have disagreed many times over the years on certain things but when it is all said and done we would still be friends if we ever come together in one place.We all believe in what we do.Some are just more hard headed than others.No offense Scott.LOL.
The one big difference between me and Scott is that he would never fly any Colored Rollers but I would fly his Hard Colored birds if they rolled right.LOL.I enjoy any roller that can do it no matter what its parentage is.
And I also know that we will all disagree or butt heads again in the future.Especially when all the Hunting is over(for me) and Winter makes us stay on the computer all day.Untill next time. David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
831 posts
Dec 02, 2006
7:31 PM
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Nick, I don't stock a bird at 6 months largely because few of mine come in to the roll by then. I generally will pull one if it shows me something I like for a period of time, something that I feel is essential to try (and not lose to an overfly or predator). I haven't stocked any from this year and my oldest will be one year old in just a few weeks. I have a few in mind and when I put my pairs down there are a couple that I will pull out and try in the stock pen, birds which have been cooking since the summer.
I don't keep a time frame for how long they have to fly, but few are pulled before they are 11-12 months old. Any I don't pull from the '06 crop in the coming month or so won't be pulled until next breeding season unless a bird simply becomes too good to risk losing.
That said, when I was feeling out my different families I would pull a bird at 8-10 months if it was showing what I liked. Now that I have a lot of birds stocked that produce well, I don't have the need to pull them as quickly.
Around here, only a small portion of a yearly crop will make it to 2-3 years old. Overflys and constant predation simply chews down the numbers, regardless of age.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
864 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:15 AM
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Scott.You asked Cliff this question on another thread but I moved it over here because my old computer takes to long to load when there is a more than one page and it goes more with this thread.
You said:Cliff that is quite a statement for a youngster , hope you kept flying that little guy to make sure it holds up.
Lets discuss this a little.From the competition side of rollers who cares if this roller holds up into another year.This roller did its job for what it was used for this year.If this roller stood the test and done what it did and to have a judge(everyone on the East Coast will tell you that this judge is one of the hardest judges to fly under.But he is fair and good and won't score anything but the best roller.)of this calibre give it his O.K. then if I was Cliff I would be breeding from it.I can assure you that like Brian Mc. said with Preds etc. chances are you would never know if the bird held up another year.
If it does or dosn't produce the goods what would another year of flying prove? The bottom line is the bird done its job and I bet Cliff wished he had a full kit of them flying on that day.But we all know it don't work that way.David
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motherlodelofts
1016 posts
Dec 03, 2006
7:52 AM
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No way I would be breeding from that bird dave, you don't know a thing about it other than its hitting it awfully good and awfully young, which just may be that birds down fall , maturity always tells the tale.
If that bird can hold into maturity, now you have something worth talking about, until then they are simply potential, but nothing wrong with getting excited about potential.
I would also be very sceptical knowing the breeding practices of the source and all the more reason "not" to stock that bird until it has prooven itself.
Building stock and what to put in is very very critical and not to be taken lightly, you could easily end up with few that can even make it to two years old , you ask why does that matter ? because there is a world of difference between mature birds and youngsters.
Scott
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
867 posts
Dec 03, 2006
9:39 AM
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Scott.So what would you prove by not breeding from that bird and continued flying it for another year to find out that it did hold up and was worthy of being stocked just to have a pred take it or have an overfly and lose it before you ever got any young from it.
Personally I would want some youngsters from a bird this good to carry on.
The 2 I stocked for good this Fall I had bred several rounds from them and put them back out for the Fall Fly and then I stocked them for good.They are 2 years old this month and I have several young from them that are doing their thing and I also beat the odds of losing either one to preds etc.Now I can be more strict with the young this year.But if one of them would show the same as the Parent I would start the process all over again.Just my way of doing it.It might not work for anyone else but it has proved to be a good way for me. David
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motherlodelofts
1017 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:29 AM
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Dave you bring up another good point about preds and over flys , funny how some have an uncany knack of being able to out smart them and make it home safely from over flys, more reason to fly out ,in fact I find that the good one's that make it through their first hawk season rarely get hawked.
You get a full picture of the birds charactor over time and on into maturity, I like looking at the big picture, you and I are like night and day when it comes to these birds, but we do have a common thread and that is the birds themselfs , enjoy.
Scott
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Shaun
380 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:35 AM
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Scott, I don't know whether Dave Moseley mentioned to you that his breeders had spent about four years in the air before they were promoted to the stock loft. Similarly, although George Mason didn't give me an exact time, he did say his breeders had been proven kit birds for "a few years".
For the likes of me, just in his second year, and relying on developing youngsters to become foundation stock, there is a natural temptation to select the most promising ones from the air, sooner rather than later. That's because I have no proven breeders already, so I will have to take a chance that my chosen ones would have held up, had I continued to fly them longer.
However, in my ideal world, it does make sense to select breeders only after a lengthy evaluation period. Why? Because many will be looking to breed birds which will start off in young bird comps, followed by those for old birds. The latter will ideally carry on performing year after year (losses to preds, etc, permitting).
So, if a bird has never been tested in the air for a lengthy period at old bird level, before being stocked, how can the breeder look forward with any confidence to its offspring performing to the required standard year after year? This, of course, wouldn't matter if the breeder was only relying on them to look good in the air for a short time, before selling them on as proven birds.
We want our rollers to hold up over time, and the big concerns are the appearance of the obvious nasty faults, like rolldowns, which haven't previously manifested themselves. However, here in the UK, Graham Dexter warned me of a less in-your-face problem, but one just as detrimental to the staying power of an old bird kit. It's a problem he's experienced in various roller families, including his own. This is the tendency for birds to turn seldom in the roll with age - this can occur in as little time as a couple of years.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
869 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:01 PM
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Shaun.Good point about what Dexter said.I have a kit that is now 3 years old.Every bird in the kit is there for the great performance it can do.However a lot of them has become just like what you said.Seldom in their performance.Some days I just shake my head and at other times I think I opened the door to my young bird kit.No way would I take a chance with them on Comp day.I will say that the older roller has refined its roll to perfection.They have settled in to what they want to do and will only do it when they want to do it.But most of the times they roll it is flawless.Now is it a genetic thing or an age thing?Or is it a combination of both?
Maybe its just my management but for Competition I will take a young kit over an older kit. David
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motherlodelofts
1020 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:17 PM
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I am 100 0/0 the opposite Dave, give me a solid kit of "good" old birds any day , a kit of old birds is the cream of many breeding seasons.
A kit of young birds can't match them consistantly for qaulity,and few can roll with the qaulity of an old bird. qaulity is the base of it all !!!
like I said in an earlier post , there is a world of difference between the two.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
871 posts
Dec 03, 2006
12:29 PM
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So why is the quality of everyone that flys in Comps always so low.Seldom will you see anything higher than a 1.7 and I mean very seldom.I havn't got to study the stats for this year but I bet the Quality is very low.
Is everyone flying young kits because they are more frequent and are able to score more points?
I agree Quality is where its at but if you can't get a roller to be doing frequent rolls you are never going to get enough points to win.David
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Shaun
381 posts
Dec 03, 2006
1:19 PM
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David, Pete Handy from England, who won the World Cup a couple of years ago, admits to working with young birds only under sufferance; he much prefers his older team, which have stood the test of time. Clearly, they had to hold up for lengthy periods to get him into a such a strong position. This wouldn't have been possible if his young birds had lost the plot too soon.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
1022 posts
Dec 03, 2006
1:20 PM
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Dave , whewww a 1.7 , of coarse you rarely see that , that means (if it's a good judge) that on average every bird scored in every break was "on" and not holding back in the roll , if it was true it be the kit to see and one that most never see, it would be pretty meaning less other wise.
Dave you get in these big flys ,it is rare that you see straight youngbird kits doing well except under poor judges , expecially when you get into the most premier fly in the world (world cup).
Few, if any on the top consistantly are doing with youngbird teams
Myself Dave I don't breed or build kits for activity , I want true hammers that are representive of the breed.
Scott
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dave
217 posts
Dec 03, 2006
2:21 PM
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My oldest bird in my kit is a 6 yr old hen. She is still as frequent as the young birds but more dependable and consistent in the roll. I find it that older birds tend to be like my old hen, in my family at least.
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bman
117 posts
Dec 03, 2006
2:46 PM
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This is sorta in line with this topic.
How many have seen a bird become a confirmed rolldown in its second year? Not a bumper or a mistake I'm talking yard dart.
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Ron
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motherlodelofts
1024 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:22 PM
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Ron, I get one once in a blue moon , they are kind of funny, if I get a youngster coming in hard and young rolling exceptional and much like an old bird qaulity with decent depth but never varies from that point forward , in other words depth and qaulity is the same at a year old as it was at say 4 mo.old when it came into the roll(kinda hard to explain), these type of birds will alway fall apart on me and rolldown after a year.
The last one was 3 years ago and I thought it was going to be an exception , but a 18 mo. old down she came, such birds are usualy awsome as younsters , you honestly don't know anything about a bird until it's been flown out hard well into adult life , they may fall apart or they may go the other way and become stiff as a board, or they may shorten up to a five footer where in it's youth it was a hard rolling 25-30 foother, from there you have the true cream,stability but full of roll and qaulity , these are the gold nuggets.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 10:24 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
875 posts
Dec 04, 2006
3:53 AM
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Scott.You said: Dave , whewww a 1.7 , of coarse you rarely see that , that means (if it's a good judge) that on average every bird scored in every break was "on" and not holding back in the roll , if it was true it be the kit to see and one that most never see, it would be pretty meaning less other wise.
I must have been confused in how quality was scored.I thought the quality was scored on the birds that rolled not scored on the kit itself. Say 9 birds rolled those 9 were given quality points.
Help me out here. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
896 posts
Dec 06, 2006
12:33 PM
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Scott.I still would like to understand how the multipliers work in the 20 bird fly.David
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motherlodelofts
1039 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:10 PM
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Dave I am trying to understand the question , just because a bird rolls doesn't make it scoreable , it must do it right from start to finish , no wingswitching or glitching , come out straight and clean ect., if you don't score a break because the qaulity wasn't there or they faked it that won't play into the multipliers.
In other words only what was scored is what plays in, and it is an overall average of all breaks scored.
The over all impression will also play in (just human behavior), but that is another topic.
Hope this helps
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
897 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:27 PM
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Scott.It's not a trick question.I know you are gun shy but this is something I am trying to learn.LOL.
Should I ever decide to put a kit of 20 birds together(for comp) I need to know how to judge them to put a good kit together.I know how to count what rolls right(well what I can see anyway)but I don't know how the multipliers work.
When Don Simpson was here judging me for the 11 bird final I had a kit of 20 ready and he said he would take the time to judge them and explain things but by then the wind was blowing so hard that when I released them the wind just blew them away so I never got to learn anything.
As I said I am always studing stats(on many things) and have always wondered why the depth and quality is always low in the flys.David
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