3757
810 posts
Jul 17, 2008
1:19 PM
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Bill Pensom did not cross his Black Country Rollers. He stated over and over that when he started out he tried all sorts of things but when he moved to the Black Country he found the genuine article. Does not this sound the same as the average fancier who starts as a kid and has all sorts of birds at first? Bill Pensom's birds are from Richards, Bellfield, Tomkins and Skidmore according to Bill and documented record books. The hypothetical is horrible and demeaning to Bill Pensom in my view.
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Ballrollers
1352 posts
Jul 17, 2008
1:54 PM
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Sounds logical, LaRon. If I can get the time this weekend, I'll try to get the date of that quote of his when he was doing the breed outcrossing so we have our facts straight about what actually occurred. (I am certainly no expert on the Pensom family!) Or maybe you have it at hand in your materials. All I know is what I read. It is not my intent to distort what actually occurred, by any means. I consider you a valuable and impartial resource on the Pensom birds.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1353 posts
Jul 17, 2008
1:56 PM
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Blowhard,
Do you have a reference that indicates that Pensom culled his outcrosses? I'd be interested in reading it. Seriously...
Cliff
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quickspin
761 posts
Jul 17, 2008
2:12 PM
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It's so hard to produce good quality birds playing without other breeds or with color. How can he had produce so many good qualiy birds? No one has got close to him and will be hard to get close if continue thinking this way.
If he did play with other breeds it was not to make them better as this is impossible but to show us the difference in quality and performance of the results if bred that way.
And if he did who cares. He still kick are >>>
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SALAS LOFT
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 2:13 PM
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Ballrollers
1354 posts
Jul 17, 2008
2:24 PM
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Scott,
"Kits and families of all color birds." But, there are kits and families that contain color birds, lots of color birds but many go unnoticed or misidentified. How many kits are ALL blue bars, all red grizzles, all anything you want to mention..... NOT MANY.We put up our BEST PERFORMERS, regardless of what color they happen to be. We fly roller pigeons. You like dark colored checks with a little bronze? Fine. I like spinners with a little more color that roll straight and deep. I don't hold against you that you fly "color-challenged" birds. LOL! That is your choice. But there is no need to protect new guys from color birds that spin. New guys love um, pick those spinners out of the air like I did, they are newbie friendly; the real deal; True Birmingham Rollers. You get your shorts in a wad over the fact that many years ago a cross was made. I didn't do it, you didn't do it. Turner crossed a color roller into his Pensom based stock and gave us more color options that performed to standard. I just take the best performers and fly them out. Most turn out to be Indigo and Andalusian. I bet you do the same thing but you lack that little something "extra" in the color dept. But again that is your choice. Do I support anyone who sells or gives away rollers that don't roll?....NOPE! They should find no place among the NBRC membership. But, If the birds perform to standard.... that should be the focus of our hobby, not color, not muffs, not all the other distractions that confuse those in the quest for performance rollers. Men who are members of the NBRC, as long as they join and involve themselves in a state or local clubs, the more obvious where to locate good birds become. It is no secret who does well with birds, where they live. Do you think the men on this list go to trade fairs to get their birds or search out the local/national fly winners in their area? You want to help out the new guys, go the trade days markets and rant to those men. See where it gets you.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 2:29 PM
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Ballrollers
1355 posts
Jul 17, 2008
2:31 PM
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OB,
I see you grasp the term "True Birmingham Roller." When I began my search for rollers, it never occurred to me there was such a thing as a PURE BLOOD purebred roller. All that interested me was if the bird performed, performed good enough to meet and surpass the performance standards. That was all! And I bet I am not the only man that thinks that way. I went to the nearest and best roller flyer I could find. I watched his birds, I made my selections and I have been very pleased with my birds ever since. The history of our birds is unclear at best but the performance standards have lead us to this point in time. I was not lied to, I was not told that these birds were something other than what they were. I was told how to feed and fly them. I was told they can do well in national and inter national competitions. I was told a few guys will dis my birds because of the rare factors. Once I saw what they can do in the air, I decided right then, I could deal with any color as long as it performed good enough to suit me. I read all the fly rules and by-laws and NO where is there any note, of what colors can compete. I have read absolutely no written words no where to discredit color birds other than in these chat rooms and 90% of the unflattering comments come from a tiny fraction of the hobby. Most men appreciate a good looking roller what ever its color. If purebred rollers is a must for you then read the genetic texts how to add a new trait/color to an existing breed and over a period of years by select breeding, the "cross" can become defined as "genetically pure." Is it as pure as before? NO! but if the book definition says it is.... it is close enough for my roller pigeons. But we have options. Just as not all purebred families work for all flyers. Each family has its differences. I can live with the ideas that my birds had a distant cross made. If some can't ... get a hamster.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1356 posts
Jul 17, 2008
2:33 PM
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Quickspin,
I believe WHP wrote several time about how RARE exceptional spinners were to come by. I believe that overall that his statements are true today. There are more spinners today because there are more men in the hobby but kits of great birds are still rare and will always be so. With the problems associated flying in BOP infested skies, we may tend to reduce those numbers even more.
Cliff
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nicksiders
2965 posts
Jul 17, 2008
4:34 PM
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Blowhard,
Do you actually believe there is no such thing as a Birmingham Roller breed? That the words "Birmingham Roller" only applies to a performance?
I'm not buying that opinion. You new guys; I recommend you get a copy of "The Pigeon" and the "Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds". Both books are by Wendell M. Levi. He can and does give you description of the bird and from that you will be able to know what it looks like even before you see it perform. Because it is a specific breed with specific features.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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kcfirl
457 posts
Jul 17, 2008
5:06 PM
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Guys,
I think the real question is do you want to have the best PERFORMING birds ou can have? Yes or no?
If you do, you will want to have birds that have ALWAYS been selected for performance only. that is the way to have the best.
When I was in England a few weeks ago I saw 12 kits fly in Middlesborough - 95% of the birds were blue check or bar with White flights and tail or mixed flights/tail. and there was a smattering of rec red - maybe 5.
that is > 200 birds - all of which were the same basic colors. I can tell you, those guys would not own a special colored bird because all they care about it performance.
Can oddly colored BR's roll well? Of course they can. Can a white horse run fast? Yes of course. But you will never see a white horse win the Kentucky derby. Why? Because the originals weren't white and a white horse has to have some breeding behind it that was not purely performance or white would not have happened. IT is a color in horses that man created.
Neither will we ever see a kit composed of all weird colored birds win the WC - it's simply to much of a hindrance when only the best will do.
This is my opinion..... of course.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Ty Coleman
472 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:00 PM
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Anthony, i saw your question went unanswerd and i cant answer it with 100% knowledge but there is grizzle among other factors in the pensom strain and grizzle came from the Tippler so you can form your on opinion.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
934 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:01 PM
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Ty , no it did not come from the Tippler shezzz
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
473 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:02 PM
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Ken, what about Jay Yandle?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
474 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:03 PM
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Fill me in then Grand Puba
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
935 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:07 PM
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The Tippler was bred into the American Roller to get the long high flying Ty,and is also why the standard for them is Pearl eye,it is it's own breed but was derived from early imports.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
458 posts
Jul 18, 2008
6:39 AM
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What about Jay Yandle. I'm sure he has good birds and can fly a good kit but don't see his name on top of the WC. and that's exactly my point.
Ken
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sippi
400 posts
Jul 18, 2008
8:18 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think Pensom wrote anything about disposing of the birds. What I know he wrote was that he had the back to Birmingham Type.
Am I mistaken?
Sippi
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Scott
942 posts
Jul 18, 2008
8:31 PM
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What would be the purpose of keeping them ? certainly none that I can think off, I think common sence answers that one.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2008 8:35 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
442 posts
Mar 16, 2009
10:51 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Classical....
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Square
664 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:51 AM
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Even if Pensom created or set the standard of what we look for in a true BR, there were to many doors left open.. Ya know like loop holes, He never mentioned anything about colour besides balence of color. he gave a discription of what a true roller should do. he did this without saying it had to be a specific colour, or with or without boots, or even a crest or the other wierd colours that people create. You could cross a roller with a roadrunner for all I care but the foundation had been laid for that creation to hold up to a cirntain standard.... So if it is doing what is described is it a true BR? is it a good creation? Ya know Bermingham Roller? even if the pigeon is from LA and the road runner from Arizona? Its just crazy LOL everythin isnt as cut and dry as we would like it to be, and you will eventually find a breakdown in any system, or standard if not clearly explained. Here is one if I breed a bird to Bill's standards as written in his book or another book is it a Bermingham Roller? Even if I live in Nevada..LOL thats like a whole word away from the Black Country, not to mention if the bird has some rare color I developed, from crossing to what ever. So how far are we actually off the so called "Ideal". Or is it that our views and Ideals change over time, and so do our rollers.... just how I think.....
PS My spellin Sucks,
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 11:57 AM
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