old guy
17 posts
Dec 10, 2006
5:24 PM
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I probably shouldn't go here but something I read near the end of the recent long thread stirs me a bit. I am a retired biologist with some interest in genetics. I dispersed my show rollers after 30 years when I retired three years ago to get back into flying birds. I had Russ Harter birds in the 50s and 60s, Plona birds in the late 70 and 80s and even flew a kit of Emerson show rollers as an expiriment and found that they rolled quite well. (very unstable because of their size)
The comment I want to address is the one about show breeders crossing with Modenas or other breeds to gain the size found in show rollers today. I don't think many breeders are aware of the tremendous genetic variation available in our breeds gene pool. I attended the NPA national in Des Moines the other day and was struck by two things; the huge size of the show rollers, and the amazingly small size some of the flying rollers.
I contend that both ends are equally distant from the size of the flying rollers I flew in the late 50s and early 60s. Just as I don't think the small size birds I saw on Sat. were due to crossing with a sparrow, I contend that the large size of show rollers did not require an outcross.
For 30 years my greatest struggle in breeding show rollers was to remain competitive with size. My first decision each year was to put together my largest one or two pairs to increase my size and then work on type. My loft was mostly closed during this time except to trade some birds with a friend from time to time and whose loft I knew nearly as well as mine. I can't speak for other beeders but I know for sure that the continual size increase in our two lofts came from within our gene pool. I hated chasing the crazy fad of increased size and yet was able to keep my birds large enough to win the national in 2003.
I know it seems crazy, even to me, but the genes are there. I used to kid my biology students that if they gave me one million dollars and 20 years I could breed a 3 foot pigeon.
Wayne
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2006 5:40 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
863 posts
Dec 10, 2006
6:38 PM
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Wayne, I am not the biologist you are, but I do concur that there are massive variables in pigeons. Proof of such is the Hungarian House Pigeon which is out right GIGANTIC. Obviously they didn't just "appear" on the planet that large, but were selectively bred for. I have no doubts that there was some crossing to other "large breeds-both physically and featherwise" to get the size seen in many in show rollers today. Pigeons have a way of producing "extremes" and many very successful show breeders have used the discovery of extremes to their advantage in the stock loft.
One thing I am pretty certain of in my show breeding experience is that it is MUCH easier to breed them down in size than to breed them up. And as I am sure you know, a lot of what is seen as "size" is often feather length versus physical mass.
Brian.
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C.J.
777 posts
Dec 10, 2006
6:54 PM
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I think it is like anything else we are breeding for. If you continually pick the larger birds to breed from then you are going to get larger birds. The same if you choose smaller birds. Not every family of rollers is small. Some guys I have seen like the bigger birds and their family of birds are bigger. Other guys swear that a roller should fit in your palm and if it is big they won't put it in their breeding program. It is all what you coose to bred for
C.J.
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Hayseedboy
12 posts
Dec 10, 2006
8:02 PM
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Hey Wayne,
I am very interested in that you state you are a retired biologist. My 6th grader is getting ready to enter into a science project with our birds as the subjects.
Would you be willing to give us some insights? If so, could you email me at lkrandolph xxxxx at xxx gmail dot com?
Take out the xxx's and such :) Sorry just get lots o spam on other addresses.
Thanks!
Larry
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Fr.mike
210 posts
Dec 15, 2006
7:12 PM
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Sooo--all other things being equal(roll,vel,depth,kitting etc.) would you pair up the large bird--Lets say your large cock with small hen. would you try and balance the type and size of your birds? Or do you breed towards a smaller bird? I have one cock that appears enormous compaired to my smallest hen.This cock is top dog in the loft.He isnt really enormous just big compared to the little hen.I know some balance color e.g.-socalled hard colors-blu-black with reds etc.(PLEASE-NO COLOR DEBATES)do you balance size or just focus on primary traits and ignore their size?
Fr. Mike
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