RB&R
99 posts
Dec 13, 2006
10:46 PM
|
The term Birmingham Roller is not in the dictionary and Wikipedia. Is someone make this up. The reason why i bring this up because either the dictionary and Wikipedia don't recognize Birmingham roller. Even outside people that don't interest in pigeon, don't know that this kind of unique creature exist.
Andrew
|
RB&R
100 posts
Dec 13, 2006
11:29 PM
|
Thank you MCCORMICK. But still many people don't really know about this breed.
|
classicpony
16 posts
Dec 14, 2006
6:51 AM
|
Being NEW to the hobby, I don't have the best of rollers, but people that I show them off to, just can't belive there eyes when they see these birds roll backwards in the sky. People just have never have seen this happen before. That's what hooked me into this hobby, seeing is beliving! That's what will hook others, if it rolls I call it a Biringham until told different..... I just love watching that roll.
Jim
|
Hector Coya
29 posts
Dec 14, 2006
5:02 PM
|
My opinion ,if it was not born in Bermingham England ,its not a bermingham roller,Its a roller born in the good US OF A
Hector C.
|
STARFIRE
103 posts
Dec 14, 2006
6:11 PM
|
hi Hector Coya.
I'm gad I'm not the only one with the crests.After all the beatings I was taking about them Im glad you told these guys you dont have to cross them to get a crest on them.You really want to freak them out?How about putting a crest on a laced bird.I have a laced bro sis .I think I.ll try that.Lol==Are Barret birds birmingham rollers?They came from England.Thanks for the support=way to go.I was almost going to cry ,they hurt my feelings so bad.NOT.LOL
STARFIRE
|
RB&R
101 posts
Dec 14, 2006
8:51 PM
|
So, anything that roll in the air are birmingham roller.
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
915 posts
Dec 15, 2006
5:07 AM
|
Apparently
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
nicksiders
937 posts
Dec 15, 2006
6:29 AM
|
LOL
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
motherlodelofts
1082 posts
Dec 15, 2006
6:41 AM
|
Birmingham Roller is a breed of pigeon that was developed in England , that is unless you talk to those that have mongrels where other breeds have been introduced for color , crests ect. they prefer to confuse the new guys.
Scott
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
916 posts
Dec 15, 2006
6:52 AM
|
Scott, do you mean to tell me...LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Electric-man
58 posts
Dec 15, 2006
7:50 AM
|
I'm confused, will someone please explain it? LOL
|
RB&R
102 posts
Dec 15, 2006
9:01 AM
|
Need some help here guys...
|
AIREDALE
41 posts
Dec 15, 2006
9:34 AM
|
Here we go again and again and again.How many times do we have to beat this dead horse? I think everyone is getting tired of this fruitless topic.I know I am.
John
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2006 9:35 AM
|
dave
225 posts
Dec 15, 2006
9:53 AM
|
RB&R,
worry more about how your birds are doing in the air. There are people that have BR's and some that have them cross. If you trace most rollers back, most people have birds that came from BR's that were imported here a while back. I don't think we need to go down this road again. Let's go down the road less traveled.
|
parlorfancier916
188 posts
Dec 15, 2006
7:19 PM
|
all rollers are backflipping birds that can do 4 revolutions or more, but forget the names just worry about the enjoyment from experimenting, we are all so caught up in debating what a birmingham roller really is and the competition, that we forgot the true reason why we all raised rollers, for the enjoyment of breeding these birds, They are all rollers, like humans, In my opinion no roller should be put in a specific class because it would be like puttiny chinky eyed people in the asian category and putting light skinned people in the european category. There shouldn't be a specific name for rollers that are like this and that, like people, we are all humans it makes no difference wether they were born somewhere else or look different.
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2006 7:23 PM
|
luis
20 posts
Dec 15, 2006
7:36 PM
|
O.K Gentleman i have not being around here that long, but i have bred pigeons long enough to know that all pigeons are decendants of the rock dove and that all breeds were developed over the centuries by concentrating on specific traits from specific birds.To come up with the variations that we have today many breeds were crossed and therefore all pigeons are MONGRELS.Get over it and enjoy what you have and if you think you can make it better.......by all means please do.Future generations of fanciers will enjoy your birds just as today we enjoy the work of past fanciers.
your friend in the hobby
-------------------------
Luis
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2006 7:40 PM
|
luis
27 posts
Dec 16, 2006
10:55 PM
|
One question for the experts!!
What brings about reversion to wild type when pigeons breed/and why?
|
Electric-man
61 posts
Dec 17, 2006
10:13 AM
|
Mine are Oklahoma Rollers! Born and raised in Oklahoma!JMO
|
luis
28 posts
Dec 17, 2006
6:02 PM
|
No answers on my question i see!!!
|
nicksiders
949 posts
Dec 17, 2006
6:08 PM
|
luis,
Well, you asked a question for the experts. So, there is no response because none of us believe we are qualified to be an expert. We all are learning this stuff everyday and untill we learn it all; we are not experts.
Maybe if you ask the same question and open it up to all you may get some answers.
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2006 6:10 PM
|
nicksiders
950 posts
Dec 17, 2006
6:29 PM
|
All pigeons possess all the chromosomes in its genetic make up and that includes the Rock Dove. During breeding when each birds crhomosomes curl around each other and match up where the Rock Dove chromosomes lay that match up will produce a "throw back" to the wild form.
Now, there are some more specific and more scientific language to support this, but in my simple world this is how I understand it.
I am no expert.
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2006 7:02 PM
|
luis
29 posts
Dec 17, 2006
7:22 PM
|
Thanks for the answer Nick.Sorry about the sarcasm but i think sometimes we can get pretty caught up with our knowledge or ideas and forget about why we started raising pigeons in the 1st place.I was just trying to prove a point that all pigeon breeds were developed by crosses and therefore we really should not get to defensive with how "pure" or "true" our birds are.That's why we have to cull so much.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2006 7:28 PM
|
nicksiders
951 posts
Dec 17, 2006
8:56 PM
|
I agree. Pigeon breeds; all of them had to be crossed to get what we have now. I have always felt that once a breed has been declared and accepted then crossing it with another breed should be discouraged. That is also a reason why many have no tolorance for those who cross other breeds into the Birmingham just for color. That so called "color modifier" is in that birds genes forever. Many believe you can't simply wash it out by breeding the Birmingham back into it for several generations. I tend not to buy in on this side of it. It is never washed out as far as I believe.
My mind is like a steel trap; it is sometimes open, but when it is closed it tends to remain that way(LOL)
By the way; I was just being a smart-ass on the one about the "expert" thing.
I hope I am not starting another color discusion.....I am just trying to explain some things about how some look at the "genetics thing" to include myself.
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2006 9:02 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
888 posts
Dec 17, 2006
9:10 PM
|
Luis, reversion to wild type would take a while to explain, and honestly I don't have all of the answers. What I do know which is specific to pigeons is there are three base colors, at the center of which is wild type blue. Ash red and brown are the other two, ash red being a dominant to blue and blue being dominant to brown. Reversion is a natural process that can be seen in one generation, or may take 20 generations for it to happen. It is largely a matter of the basic three colors being sex-linked. This is primarily why we see mostly blue commies. Human interference can control the direction of where the color goes or stays. Without human interference, it is inevitable that a flock will revert to blue over a period of time.
|
motherlodelofts
1099 posts
Dec 17, 2006
10:05 PM
|
Luis , that thought on crosses being meaningless may be why you have secondaries longer than the primaries , the Birmingham Roller is a package from mental to physical that is very difficult to maintain , it aint just a pigeon , to handle what a first class bird can do takes the right physical and mental strength along with proper type and feather , it didnt just happen and if you aren't concentrating strictly on that balance and nothing else, well , then you have nothing as far as this breed goes.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2006 10:09 PM
|
STARFIRE
122 posts
Dec 18, 2006
2:38 PM
|
Hi McCormic.
"Thats why all the commiies are Blue."They are blue I think, because they come from homing pigeons. What color are they?
They are the only pigeon that can survive if they go wild.Do you see any rollers or any other breed that have gone wild in with the commies?
Just my thoughts.I could be wrong.
STARFIRE
|
Missouri-Flyer
30 posts
Dec 18, 2006
3:55 PM
|
Starfire,
As a youngster years ago I would catch commies and sell them to a gentleman in Southern Ca. by the name of Jerry Higgins to resale to dog trainers.
I remember catching many, many rollers with bands that had reverted back to the wild. These "wild" rollers lived with the same instincts as the commies. Jerry
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
896 posts
Dec 18, 2006
4:17 PM
|
Jerry, the reversion to wild type I mention is a term used for the process of natural color reversion in a flock over a period of time to wild type blue. I think you might have confused my wording for that of a pigeon simply learning to live in the wild.
Stan, I have had the same basic commies that live in the barns across the street from me ever since I've lived at my current place. There is a recessive red hen and an ash red bar cock that I've seen for over five years. I see them just about every morning. The cock must carry blue as I have yet to see but one red bar youngster (there could have been more produce, I just never saw them). The recessive red hen must be blue based as well as I have yet to see another recessive red that I can recall in that flock.
|
STARFIRE
125 posts
Dec 18, 2006
4:19 PM
|
Hi McCormick;
I think the reason for that is because it's not cold there
There's' none here that I've ever seen .The only bird I remember as a kid that was wild was a red bald tumbler.
I remember quite a few kids would catch this bird,and would take it home and let it out in a few weeks and it would go
right back to a brewery where it stayed.Oh well Who knows.I never seen ALL the wild birds where I am.Maybe there are a few.
STARFIRE
|
Electric-man
63 posts
Dec 18, 2006
6:02 PM
|
I"m probably gonna regret this one, but why do we insist on giving Birmingham the credit for our rollers? Haven't we developed them even more and improved them?
I made a comment the other day about Oklahoma rollers, just being stupid, but I started wondering,does it ever change? If we improved them, why don't we claim them American Rollers, and Canadian Rollers and so forth?
To me, it would be saying that they are better bred than the old birminghams.
I also raise Labs, there is a English version and an American version. I'm sure they all originated in the same place. Whats the difference?
|
nicksiders
954 posts
Dec 18, 2006
6:52 PM
|
I do not believe the Birmingham Roller has improved. There are more outstanding birds then before; education and the internet has helped there. The same description of a Birminghan 100 years ago describes the good performer of today. Has not changed; has not been improved.
What has improved is the number of good breeders and hence; the number of good birds. The breed's performance has not changed or improved(or did I just say that?)
My opinion and I ain't changing my mind either.(LOL)
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2006 9:42 PM
|
luis
33 posts
Dec 18, 2006
8:44 PM
|
Scott:
I don't know were you read my thought on crosses being meaningless(I was simply trying to prove a point,as i find it amusing that some folks go to the lenghts of insulting others when it comes to the purity of the breed)but you better go over this thread again.It's funny how we can take something and flip it completely SOUTH.As far as some of my birds offspring having longer secondaries than primaries if they don't look right after the 1st molt they're gone!!I'm with you on these breed being performance 1st,but i have nothing against people who go a different route and i certainly like beautifully colored birds(with correct type) but they must perform.Like i have said before the judge won't be able to tell anyway.
|
motherlodelofts
1108 posts
Dec 18, 2006
9:18 PM
|
Re-ead my post Luis, there is something to be learned from it , that is if you breed for performance.
No the secondaries don't change after the moult , and if you have secondaries longer than the primaries something is amuck geneticly , I would say that the funny stuff floating around in the gene pool is the culprit.
Scott
|
luis
37 posts
Dec 18, 2006
9:50 PM
|
O.K Scott i got ya!
Back to the topic of the secondaries.The pair that threw these squeakers look fine as far as feather lenght goes.The second round of squeakers looks much better.Should i separate this pair since i had this problem once?Unfortunately not all my stock birds are top notch but i believe (correct me if i'm wrong) that even some less than desirable birds can breed good rollers you just have to cull a lot more.What do you think.You have been breeding rollers a lot longer than me.
I bred rollers as a kid back in the early 80s' and got into Sporting Pouters when i found them in the states.This is the breed that flips my lid but they require more time than i have at the moment.I love rollers as well this is the only comp breed that can satisfy me other than the Sporting Pouters.I intend on giving it all i have to breed top notch competitors. Thanks for all your help.
|
motherlodelofts
1122 posts
Dec 19, 2006
7:35 PM
|
Luis , sorry it took so long to get back to you on this . Luis breeding these birds is all about setting good traits , and limiting bad traits.
It is also about balance or balancing , I look at several things when pairing birds .
1. I look to balance weaker charactor birds with stronger , this is probaby one of the most important for me.
2. size , my birds are all medium to medium small , I take into consideration of keeping the sizes in balance, I don't want them to small nor to large.
3. type , some of my birds will run longer cast, some a bit shorter , some a bit wider in the chest and some a bit narrower , I want birds in between so I take this into consideration also.
4. eye , I want it rich and with depth.
5. relationship
6. and the most important factor is just plain old gut feeling
These are just samples.
Take your long secondaries , breed them to birds with shorter and you will get both , the more dominate the other bird is the less you will get , in other words breed away from it.
All of my birds are closely related and have been for a number of years , so the actual differences aren't great.
There are many considerations when breeding for shear performance and nothing else can play in or you will have to give up something in the performance department for it, and it aint easy as it is , you can't take your eye off of the ball or you'll go backwards or fis faults in.
As for your stock , if it isn't there already you can't pull it out.
I could breed my culls and pull out a good one out here and there , but I would have to breed many , and in turn the few that I did get would in most probably breed the same as the parents , not a pleasant thought LOL.
Scott
|
luis
39 posts
Dec 19, 2006
9:05 PM
|
Thanks again for your insight Scott i appreciate it.I've just started so i have a long way to go. I intend on giving it all i have so i can compete with you guys in a couple of years.
|
Velo99
799 posts
Dec 31, 2006
12:11 PM
|
I found this on page 78
The lofts that perfected the good rollers that rolled for several yards with rapid speed and quality were from several lofts in Birmingham of Skidmore,Payne and Bellfield.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
nicksiders
1103 posts
Dec 31, 2006
1:24 PM
|
Kenny,
Have you got a period on that? About how long ago are we talking here?
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
Velo99
800 posts
Dec 31, 2006
1:35 PM
|
Nick
Quoting next sentance from the same post.
"These were considered and called the true Birminghams and Pensom himself stated this and gave the definition of the true Birmingham , you know the drill from his discripton from his book."
Evidently it is what Pensom considered true origin BR`s
Don`t know about a time period. I would assume mid 1800`s?
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2006 1:41 PM
|