scotty
43 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:53 AM
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The performance of a Birmingham to me is a ballance between a birds mental and psycical strenth and body type,along with it's chareture . I belive performance and body type work together in tandum with the mental abilities that may be expressed through training. correct me if I am wrong.-Scotty
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J_Star
728 posts
Dec 22, 2006
4:29 AM
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You are correct.
Jay
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knaylor
373 posts
Dec 22, 2006
5:53 AM
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Hey scotty its been a long time. How is everything??
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
151 posts
Dec 22, 2006
7:15 AM
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Scotty ,,you are right, i look first to the genetics(quality) of the spin of the family and percentage , the character and the physical structure of the birds, the birds have to have the right areo-dynamics (type) to create the spin.
R-LUNA
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
950 posts
Dec 22, 2006
10:49 AM
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Well then I guess I'll be the grinch to disagree. Roller fanciers tend to place value on things and describe them as being critical elements, when in fact, most of what we like is simply our preference. Show me your best spinner and I'll show you mine and I guarantee you they will have a different body. I am firmly convinced that body type is for the fancier, not for the spinner. If it were true, then why will you see a deep, long keeled bird roll just as nice as a short, shallowed keel rangy looking bird? No one can ever explain with factual certainty why one body type can be better than another? I've heard opinions, much like all of you are reading mine right now.
When hard core roller guys start talking type, I want to tell them, "show me in the air". Some of the best spinner to ever have their picture taken were ugly pigeon versions of swamp donkeys.
Good spin is in the mind and physical fitness of the pigeon. The mind contains the motor, the rest, well that is just speculation.
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 10:50 AM
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STARFIRE
194 posts
Dec 22, 2006
11:34 AM
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Hey McCormick:
I agree with you 100%Truer words were never spoken.Body type means squat,Its all in the head.I think a lot of guys that buy into this,body type and character crap are culling a lot of great birds because they dont fit into their Mistaken Ideal.
STARFIRE
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longarm
12 posts
Dec 22, 2006
11:47 AM
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I belive brian is correct. as each breeder fine tunes their family they will find that a certin body style comes out dominant in their loft. Naturally the breeder will gravitate to that type of bird. the mistake is made when they take their idea of a good roller body to another loft. there are general features that should raise an alarm ( like a homer body with e.t. muffs and a capouchian ruff) but outside of that the exterior is just that. the roll comes from inside. As I have heard said if it looks like a pink rhino and rolls I will enjoy albet with a hard hat on. c.j.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
953 posts
Dec 22, 2006
11:48 AM
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Stan, I wouldn't say it doesn't mean squat, a good body and keel that are within the margin of "normal" for a roller is okay. Bird that exceed the boundaries of normalcy will surely show a lack of something in the roll. A good roller body just simply feels good in the hand. You can handle your best spinner and identify its structure in the hand, then pick up your stiffest stiff and probably discover they are pretty much the same. What has body type taught you? Makes a person wonder doesn't it.
Just remember this. Just about every person who has been a hard core advocate for type and body (picking um on the perch) has a loft full of stiffs that fly fast. That is fact.
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 11:50 AM
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STARFIRE
196 posts
Dec 22, 2006
12:00 PM
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Hi McCormick:
I don't care about anything but performance.As you can see with my crests.LOL
STARFIRE
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motherlodelofts
1179 posts
Dec 22, 2006
1:33 PM
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Type will vary , but not by far , there are many other factors that play in also that will also vary , but not by far either.
I think that strong in some area's also counter balance weakness in other area's to some degree also.
Does type play in ? Duh
Type plays into every aspect of the bird where qaulity ,wing position , speed, balance ect.
And there is a particular parameter that is has to fit into, on top of it, Wing structure , balance, balance of every physical aspect in proportion or close to it,in short, the apple can't nor does fall far from the tree .
And then there is that little pea brain and how it's strength and weaknesses play in.
Now can birds that are far out of proportion (type) roll ? you betcha ,but so can an Oriental, myself I expect far out of a bird though.
Now is there any chance in hell that those reduced birds that Stan posted can roll with qaulity ? not a frigging chance.
Nor can more than a few that have been posted.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 2:36 PM
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nicksiders
1004 posts
Dec 22, 2006
3:24 PM
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I have a couple of the ugliest rollers I have ever seen that do have it all. They are so not the BR type that even though they can turn it up I have yet to consider stocking them. They are so ugly the other birds talk about them.
So, I guess I am saying that body type and performance do not go hand in hand all of the time in my loft, BUT I want it to.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 3:25 PM
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big al
233 posts
Dec 22, 2006
3:39 PM
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Brian said:
"Show me your best spinner and I'll show you mine and I guarantee you they will have a different body."
I visited more lofts this year than I have in the last four and found that statement to be very true, but mostly because what I consider my best and what another guys best is may be different.
The most dynamic performers I saw this year were simular in type with minor differences.
I've discovered that a breeder that really knows what they are doing, and has specific goals will see the body type of their birds change to accomodate the breeder's expectations. (This is where Brian's statement rings true!)
If you tweak your breeding program a little for depth, there's a chance you may see or feel a difference in the birds. If you tweak for a smoother roll, you may see a slightly longer cast bird etc... It depends on the family, but in more cases than not, some change will occur with some highly visible, while others are noticed mostly by handling.
If a seasoned breeder/flyer is breeding for performance first with a plan, and there is success, the body type will be right for his particular birds.
The majority of the time body type will not dictate the roll. I think a great roller will dictate it's body type.
The more I breed strictly for performance (The type I like) the more the body type looks and feels the way I like.
Just my .02 :-) Hope that makes sense.
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 3:55 PM
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luis
46 posts
Dec 22, 2006
4:45 PM
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Type in a roller is one of the most important traits that has to be considered in the overall picture of performance.As stated before some faults or weaknesses are balanced out by other positive traits in some birds wich accounts for birds with certain faults to roll well,but if you want that perfect roll you better consider type when breeding because the slightest change in it will affect the way your birds roll!
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2006 1:07 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
950 posts
Dec 22, 2006
4:46 PM
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Hey Brian, I visualize an oblong (longer keel) basketball, when you spin it, at first it seems to be spinning perfectly, but as it slows you see the wobble.
I think Pensom mentions somewhere that a pigeon’s wing beat can compensate for the wobble. How does the pigeon know to do this? Or is it just by coincidence that a particular roller can overcome the wobble and another cannot? Perhaps it feels stress during the wobble so he compensates slightly making it spin properly?
Is this particular rollers’ awareness (stress) of the wobble and its reaction (wing beat compensation) something that can be passed on to its offspring?
If so, then to the fancier, this roller and its offspring appear to be doing it right and so he continues to select birds that can over come the fact that the bird is longer than say a shorter cobby type bird.
Perhaps it is only what birds you have and their physical and mental capabilities as it relates to the roll. To me, its like if you want to get to Kansas City, MO from New York, you have to go west, if you are in California, you have to go east. Either way, it depends from where you start and where you want to go, you end up at the same place as the other guy.
This brings me to another point I want to make, to me, its like this with Birmingham Roller as a breed (has a map of the USA, thus knows where it is at and what direction to go to get to Kansas City, MO), the true bred Birmingham Roller has a certain mental predisposition that attempts to correct the faults within it own physique in order to spin in a high velocity manner which this too is a genetic trait.
In my opinion, introducing non-Birmingham genetics to a Birmingham Roller is like taking the map of the USA and altering landmarks, points on the compass and changing the names of highways so that while “eventually” we may reach Kansas City quite by accident and claim we knew what we were doing the whole time, it was just luck of the draw that brought us there.
Eventually everyone will re-adjust how to get there until the next time the map is changed on everyone.
In my opinion, the current map is just fine…
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Missouri-Flyer
43 posts
Dec 22, 2006
5:06 PM
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Well spoken Tony!
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
959 posts
Dec 22, 2006
5:10 PM
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Tony, IMO the motor is in the head. Rolling isn't an action of a ball spinning, but rather a furious composition of motions and reflexes taking place. Some birds simply possess a better tuned motor than others.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
952 posts
Dec 22, 2006
6:25 PM
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Brian, my take is a bit different from yours. IMO the moving parts of the rollers body are:
• head pulled back
• tail up
• wings beating
• muscle
• etc
And these actions are the motor which is then controlled by the programming of the genetics in response to stimuli generated by the type of body (long or cobby, etc), its rolling motion and environmental factors (wind, rain, heat, training, etc).
The Birmingham Roller is a neat little compact, self-contained rolling system. It only improves or maintains the necessary qualities when proper characteristics are recognized and bred for by the fancier, otherwise, in the wrong hands, the bird’s offspring will degenerate to the level of understanding and experience of the fancier.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
963 posts
Dec 22, 2006
8:15 PM
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Tony, those are moving parts of the bird, but they are always moving regardless if the bird is rolling or not...lol
Some birds rock their heads in the roll, some don't. Some birds beat their wings more than others in the roll (style). Most all have their tails tucked back.
Its the motor that makes them do this, their internal engine that drives the roll.
This is a stretch, but I'm sure you'll get the point.
Take two identically prepared race cars and put a two-cylinder Yugo engine in one and a SRT-10 Viper motor in the other. Which do you think will perform faster?....LOL.
I won't deny there are certain physical elements of a bird that allow it to perform more efficiently than if it possessed physical traits that became more of a handicap.
This I do stand firm on and it is that you can and will see birds of nearly identical physical structure roll differently than it's counterpart. I've seen it and I'm sure you have too.
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motherlodelofts
1186 posts
Dec 22, 2006
9:29 PM
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I gotta agree with Brian, it all starts in the head, everything else is what follows.
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
955 posts
Dec 22, 2006
9:49 PM
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Brian, at first read, your Yugo and SRT-10 engine comparisons seem reasonable. But actually you are comparing apples to oranges. Two engines of different classes will produce differing results with the same quality of drivers.
I think this other car analogy will help you understand better what I mean…
On a couple of occasions, I had the experience of driving souped-up go-karts at an annual memorial for a friend who’s brother passed away, the family was heavy into racing midget cars and small go-karts and many of their racing buddy drivers and pit crews would pay to race on this Slick Track with all the proceeds of the event going to charity.
Anyway, guys like me who only drive normal cars where ALWAYS soundly lapped and badly beaten and shown-up by these professional drivers and pit crews. (it was all for fun, haha)
So we all drove these go-karts with the same engine around this Slick Track and never did we amateurs have a ghost of a chance of ever beating these pros.
With their built-in tolerance for risk, years of experience and driving skill, they made the rest of us look silly.
So I stand by what I said in the previous post about the bird’s body movements being the engine and the genetics providing the impetus for high end performance action.
When all physical traits are more or less equal, the genetic desire to roll makes the difference and then we begin to understand why they are called Birmingham Rollers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
153 posts
Dec 22, 2006
10:59 PM
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AS Pensom wrote "true type will show itself in the air" once you start to study not just your fast spinnners, but other lofts and their fast spinners one thing they will have in common, is the type in body for that high velocity spin, the keel placement, muscule, feather,the back to substain the depth and genetics will also play in,,,
Breeding just for the mere sake of having type is also wrong , it all has to have the make-up to have the name of the spinner.
Velocity will have it's differ of interpetation, but we must be honest of things and admit to it when we see it.
So the quote "show me your fast spinner and i'll show you mine and their will be no difference in type", the faster pigeons will be of different type,that's the facts, it's not my idea or the way i want it to be, thats the way it is.
R-LUNA
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155
640 posts
Jul 20, 2008
11:43 AM
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g/topic
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EVILLOFT'S
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gotspin7
1511 posts
Jul 20, 2008
3:43 PM
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I agree 155.
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Sal Ortiz
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155
652 posts
Jul 20, 2008
3:51 PM
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this are the topics i like to read...
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EVILLOFT'S
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