sippi
4 posts
Dec 29, 2006
6:25 PM
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Scott I read a lot on this site. I am also a member on the other site. I fly more than just BR's so the other site suits my pursuits better. I dont post unless I have a question or think I can contribute something useful. That is back ground on me. Strictly for information. Now I have a question for you and I hesitate to even start a thread on this again. But I have been reading the color controversy for weeks and weeks and then I see all these pretty birds posted on here by the breeders. What is a "colored bird"? I have seen some real beauties posted on here in the last two weeks. This is a serious question for you because you have given some very useful information on here. I am not trying to stir any pots. Just a serious question.
FYI I have pure Pensoms and only in black, blue bar, blue checks, and ash red. I breed all my birds for performance only. But I would like to have some I have seen on here if they spin.
Thanks
Paul
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motherlodelofts
1230 posts
Dec 29, 2006
8:44 PM
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Paul, that is a easy one, color birds or the so called "rare color" are from crossbreeding other breeds into the Birmingham Roller , you say lots of "pretty" birds.
I say learn to look beyond the feather pigment and learn what a Birmingham Roller is supposed to look like,and the bulk of those mongrals get ugly real fast , some look more like the cross than a Birmingham(not talking feather color).
The physical beauty and characteristics of the Birmingham Roller has nothing to do with the feather pigment.
Paul ,color birds are nothing more than an atrocity against the breed.
Scott
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Ballrollers
541 posts
Dec 29, 2006
9:38 PM
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Geesh!!! What a crock!!!!!!! I could post photos of Birmingham Rollers on here all day and challenge anyone to determine which ones carry color modifiers and which ones do not, by type alone. Never happen, my friend.
YITS,
Cliff
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motherlodelofts
1232 posts
Dec 29, 2006
10:38 PM
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Cliff , you are right(to a point), some of the mongral blood is buried deep depending on the skills of the breeder, most of them are extreamly obvious though and are unrecognizable as any breed.
There is a reason why you don't see good kits with many color birds in them , it takes the real deal to hold em up Cliff.
Scott
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BR Rollers
61 posts
Dec 29, 2006
11:14 PM
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Paul opinions are like "A" holes, everybody has one! It's ashame some folks can't give accurate advise. Scott you are way off target on this one. How can you give someone adice on something you know nothing about? If you don't fly a certain family of birds how can you be the expert on them?
Kinda has that used car saleman sound to it...lol
If you wanted to know how a mustang drives would you ask a guy driving a camero? Come on get real!
I find it interesting that Paul choose you to ask about this topic. Should have asked the question to someone with this type of bird
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motherlodelofts
1234 posts
Dec 29, 2006
11:45 PM
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Where am I off at ? you boys just just follow the Mongral color and see where it takes you , enjoy , I'm out.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 12:10 AM
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knaylor
404 posts
Dec 30, 2006
1:43 AM
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Yep there are no crosses in those birds!! Like Cliff( mr honesty) says they are all the same, and the rare colors only show up in certain lofts due to selective breeding!!! LMAO!!!
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nicksiders
1087 posts
Dec 30, 2006
2:22 AM
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Paul asked Scott because he knew Scott would give him an honest answer. Don't degrade Paul's decision.
It is a fact that other breeds were used to breed into the BR to get certian colors into rollers and your denial is misfounded and simply a lie.
The question I have is what in the hell motivates you to cover this fact up?
I do not see anything that Scott said in this thread that was not true. If you have, please point it out.
Don't muddy up the question to protect your desires to sanctify the breeding of "rare colors" into the BR. There is a dark side of color breeding and your denial of it just perpetuates it. There is no dark side in keeping the the BR as it has been since it was declared a breed. The BR's performance has not been improved for a hundred plus years, so tell me what the rare colors have done for the breed except contaminate it further?
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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trevsta65
47 posts
Dec 30, 2006
2:25 AM
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well all my pretty birds come from 2 different pair .1 that consist of a red bar bald hen and black check mealy type cock that give me pretty red check bald heads and spread ash birds and another that consists of red bar bald head cock and sort of pied bald hen that also give me red checks and pied birds what colour these birds carry i do not no but all i know is that every batch is bringing me something different.i care not what they look like but how they are performing but it justs happens that are very pretty to. lol cheers trev
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 2:26 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
973 posts
Dec 30, 2006
4:54 AM
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I didn't start this one! LOL
Scott was asked a direct question and answered it honestly. What would be his motivation to lie or mislead? How does Scott gain anything to maintain his position on this matter?
Each time the color topic comes up, the apologists come out to protect the line. Why the vehemence to contradict or disagree with Scott?
Paul, if you are into competitive flying...say the World Cup or Fall Fly, you go ahead, add some of that rare color stuff to your family, just one less kit I'll have to concern myself with toward my goal of winning. LOL
I am serious too, please please please add pretty colors to your family, make this a main reason to pick your breeding pairs.
Same goes for anybody else, add those colors to your family of birds. Please. Especially if you have been into competitive flying.
======
Scott or Cliff or whomever, what are some of those pretty colors we can recommend to these guys to pimp thier birds?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
788 posts
Dec 30, 2006
5:08 AM
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Sippi,
This debate has rages forever and always will. I for one won`t ever bring another breed in to my birds just to get another color or marking. I like colors in my birds. I like roller colors though. In my opinion threre are enough colors im the roller bacground to satify most people. Question to ask your self is do I want pretty colors that are no longer a true BR or a pretty bird that you have to breed for 8 generations to get it to roll again.
The rest of the debate goes around the fact there is no set standard other than for performance for the bird. The NPA has a standard for tumblers which includes the BR.
In genetics once you breed 8 generations back to a pure BR it is 15/16ths BR.
Now to do that how do you judge which birds to put back on during the first few generations?
These are a crap shoot decided totally by the whim of the breeder.
If thats what floats you boat , your birds your feed bill.
jmho
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 5:27 AM
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sippi
5 posts
Dec 30, 2006
5:37 AM
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I guess I didnt ask the question right. What I wanted to know was specific color/patterns that are considered introduced. And yes I did ask Scott because I would get the answer that motivates his decisions on color. I understand the "look" of a good BR. I personally dont care if the are pink if they roll right. I just dont have any color in my birds because there isnt any to get. I am looking for a specific answer: toy stencil, blue lace, etc.
I dont know which are and which arent. I picked these two up from the forum. Tony Made me do it.
LOL
Paul
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C.J.
820 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:25 AM
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I am not a colour breeder and I respect Scott's opinion but keep in mind it is just an opinion. Scott is a very smart man but anyone on here knows Scott is NOT a fan of coloured birds.
C.J.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
977 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:56 AM
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Ahhh, but C.J., that begs the question: Why would he hold that opinion?
Some opinions are worth more than others! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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STARFIRE
258 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:32 AM
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-Hey Guys:
I have a question for all you fanatical pure birmingham roller nuts.If you bred a pair of blue checks and got a tort from them,or a pair of red checks ,and you got some yellow selfs from them,or any other colored bird from your own birds,would you keep them?Now these young are just as good as any of your other birds in your family.What would you do with them?It can and does happen you know.
STARFIRE
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Velo99
790 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:47 AM
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If a frog had wings he wouldn`t bump his butt when he jumped.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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W@yne
133 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:01 AM
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SIPPI
I personally dont care if the are pink if they roll.
Sippi count me out on that one whatever floats yer boat LoL
Stan
I didnt know 2 blue chequers could throw torts
and yellows i would kill at birth never seen an A team yellow bird that has it all.
REGARDS
W@yne uk
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
978 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:04 AM
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Well let's all just muddy the waters some more...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MILO
80 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:43 AM
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Hi Sippi.
You ask a question like that, and these guys are only going to confuse you. Lets's keep it simple. I have the same colors as you, and I really enjoy them, in the air. On the ground they are absolutely awesome to look at, just for the very reasons Scott has described. They are the olympic athletes of the pigeon world. Now, I have these particular colors because that is what they have been for years. It is in them, generation after generation. Those of you familiar with the DJO will remember the 15590 pedigree. I was always amazed how closely inbred this bird was. There are only dark checks on that pedigree. Those birds could perform at the highest level. Now, to add to Stans question...If it (unique color)popped up...which it never has in my 24 years of breeding rollers in this family, ya. Only if it rolled too...I wish it would, but it won't. It would make it easier to spot the good ones up there out of all the darkness...lol So do I like the colored birds? Sure. I mean Jeez, take a look at those Szab birds! My main point Sippi, is NEVER add something to your stock becasue you like the color. Only add what makes your stock better in the air. If I wanted better rollers than the family I have...I don't think I could find them. If I wanted more W/F's, balds, whatever....I could find them anywhere. To get color and performance, you have to really look around in my opinion. Where you find conflict Sippi is that there are guys that breed strictly for performance, those that breed for color first (and don't admit it) yet claim to breed for performance, and those that breed for performance that are fortunate to have color birds. Now, there is also "rare" group of people that are so bored with the roller, that they cross in other breeds to get colors that are not unique to the breed. That is the stuff of children, and not of serious Birmingham Roller breeders. It sounds like you have all the good birds you need. Pretty birds are just that, pretty. Once you wade through all the ego's and personal agendas sippi...you will find that it is up to you on this one. Good luck Sippi. Those of you that want to attack this post...Go kick rocks, and give this guy some honest advice.
c
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W@yne
134 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:55 AM
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Milo
Well said i totally agree with your post.
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W@yne
135 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:02 AM
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Milo
Well said i totally agree with your post.
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knaylor
406 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:58 AM
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Hey Milo great post!! See what happens when you post something before you hit the bottle??? LMAO happy new yaer buddy!!
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motherlodelofts
1236 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:58 AM
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Paul, do your homework, it isn't that hard to figure out, I will say this though, the breed does "not" only come in the dark self colors as my family is, that is just the charactoristics of my particular family.
Also, it is a real mental asset for me , you learn to only look at the bird and nothing else is able to play in.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 10:59 AM
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smokey
93 posts
Dec 30, 2006
11:22 AM
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i like color i also like the roll. a couple day ago i ask will ruby rollers improve my blu lace? no anser if i use blu lace on first breeding only then bring offspring back to ruby roller for a few generations cull the rest including all that i bring back to the rubys i should get good blu lace. right ? smokey PS im just trying to improve the color of my choice
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sippi
6 posts
Dec 30, 2006
11:28 AM
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That was a very good post Milo. That leads me to my next question. How in the world do you tell which bird is a cull and which one is good when they are all the same color? Most of mine are black/dark checker and all look the same at three hundred feet. There are the odd white flight and some of the blue bar badges have white flights but most I cant tell apart. All I have been able to do is pull them one at a time and see if the cull is out. I am talking about one the is not frequent or only single flip or double flips but kits well and comes down with the kit.
Thanks
Paul
Tony my best bird ever was an ash red check and looked a lot like your Rubies.
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Shaun
390 posts
Dec 30, 2006
11:45 AM
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Scott, that's a very valid point. I think it's human nature to be persuaded by the beauty thing. If your birds are more basic in their appearance, the likelihood is that in the pursuit of performance, you won't be distracted by the paint job.
Shaun
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bman
137 posts
Dec 30, 2006
12:07 PM
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Paul (sippi)
You'll find a bunch of posts on notching the tail for I D purposes.But if you are really set on adding "color" go find the best pied or grizzle cock you can beg borrow or buy.You get all the variety you'll need to help seperate them in the air.
Okay boys turn the guns loose and blow me out of the water.LOL
Ron
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Ron
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nicksiders
1092 posts
Dec 30, 2006
12:47 PM
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smokey,
You are really trying to make an old man out of me, ain't you.
So, let me get this straight. You put the lime in the coke and you stird it all up. I said doctor, will this help my belly ache.......I'm back, I'm back
So, let me get this straight. You are going to put yourself in a culling situation on purpose just so you can mix in your favorite color and then eventually after culling a few generations and breeding back into this mongrel a Birmingham Roller to get some of the performance back?
Yah, sounds like a real solid plan to me. You have the green light. After all smokey you are paying the feed bill so you can do anything you want to the breed. Is this what you want to hear?
Come on smokey, snap out of it. Find another breed other than a performance breed if color is your thing.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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MILO
83 posts
Dec 30, 2006
3:58 PM
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LOL Naylor.
Have a great New Year.
c
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sippi
7 posts
Dec 30, 2006
5:10 PM
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Hey Ron I am not set in adding color per say. But if I did find a grizzle that suited me and was close to the family I have I would breed him or her in. What most dont know is that I am fanatical purist in my breeding practices. I like intensive line breeding and am totally against crossbreeding. But line breeding has to be infused occasionally with something. That said I will do project crosses with families, NOT COLOR SCOTT, just to see if I can make a better widgit. Meanwhile I keep the families pure and seperate in case the widgits suck. Cause backing up is tough but detouring is easy. And if my widgits get good enough you will see me in the regionals and WC flys. But they will probably be mostly black or blue for now.
Keep em Flying
Paul
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