rollerman132
42 posts
Jan 02, 2007
12:58 PM
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How many of you believe in pensoms theory of soft and hard color? Do you think color makes a difference in the roll? What about eye color?
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
940 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:16 PM
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I don't believe that Color has anything to do with the Roll either in Eye or Feather.David
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W@yne
161 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:18 PM
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Here we go again mentioning that swear word(color}When will this end.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1008 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:20 PM
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There are many tangibles that exist in rollers, some which seem to make no sense and others which defy what can be labeled as logical. Though I am not completely estute on all facets of animal husbandry, generally speaking there are very few species of animals, or even birds for that matter where there are certain tangibles based on breeding or balancing out a mating to achieve a specific goal. I think this is one of the most unique elements of the roller pigeon, or should I even say, pigeons in general.
Certain known characteristics exist in roller pigeons in particular that in a way defy what we think should be possible, or impossible. We have numerous factors and features in our pigeons that many other breeds of animals do not possess, and even fewer possess in a manner in which a balancing act is required. I am a firm believer that to breed good kits of rollers one must accept that, in general, you have to balance out matings based on numerous details. Enough fanciers have figured out over time that soft feathered birds tend to be on the hot side while hard feathered birds tend to have more control as well as often can be considered specimens that can exhibit more speed in the roll. Soft feathered birds tend to be more frequent.
We have pearl eyes and orange eyes, and in between those lies a myriad of eye characteristics that often shapes a certain fancier's opinion. I know some fanciers who seek yellow eyed rollers and others who want pearl eyed rollers with bold correlation features. It is a generally safe assumption to accept when some notable fanciers preach that you should never breed two pearl eyed birds together, and seldom breed orange eyed birds together. The reasons will often vary and include the individual determination that pearl to pearl will produce stiffs while orange to orange will produce heat. This is not all-enclusive, but actually has some pretty astonishing merit in various lofts.
I believe there is some undisputable truth to the practice of mating soft to hard feather in matings as well as the practice of mating recessive colors such as recessive red to dominant colors to achieve a balance. There has been some significant proof in some families that when mating two grizzles together, the ones which come homozygous for grizzle tend to be overcooked. Why these tangibles exist I have no clue. But there is enough proof from loft to loft that they do exist and a smart fancier will learn the individual nuances of the birds he is working with to find the key methods of balancing out certain features to work in his advantage.
A few more unique characteristics that come to mind are sooty, dirty, patterns, bronzes and even excessive oil glands (grease quills). In the Reed birds, the really good ones often exhibit heavy oil glands. KGB has noted a few times that he has experienced his best birds often express sooty.
I've experienced that when mating two ash reds together, the ideal is to have the red cock split for blue and it fairly consistent that all blue hens produced from such a mating will be far better than any of the reds from the same mating.
Why these tangibles exist is a question we will probably wonder forever. But many of them cannot be disputed.
Brian.
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2007 1:21 PM
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longarm
28 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:45 PM
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I have found in certin familys that certin colors of birds tend to show certin traits. I use this in chooseing breeds on occasion. It has nothing to do with the color really but the quality of the origional bird that brought that color into the family. david I am sure that you have seen this with the qualmonds in one of your familys. They tend to be very hot and when breed well they can add some real zip to the kit. The breeding of hard and soft colors was a bit of a shock to me as read through some of mr pensoms writeings as I have only delt with it in raceing homers to mantain the rigidty and duribility of the flights for season endurance. I am not sure I understand the basis of a soft color being hot and a hard color being to stiff. c.j.
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Steve_uk
21 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:49 PM
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And i find odd eyed birds do this!!!
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2007 1:51 PM
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fhtfire
758 posts
Jan 02, 2007
2:17 PM
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I don't think hard and soft matings make a bit of difference...What happens in one loft will differ in another loft. I mean if it is only hard colors that are stiffs...then Campbell would have kits of stiffs...if soft colors are overcooked...then Tony would be rolling down every bird he owns...then there are the ones that say Grizzles are unstable....or like I just heard about Bull eyed birds or odd eyed birds...GIVE ME A FREAK'N break. I have never had a bull eyed bird roll down or be unstable...I have some grizzles that are damn good...I have Dark colors that are over cooked and light colors that are the stiffer side....IT DIFFERS FROM ONE LOFT TO THE NEXT....I have mated a Blue bar and Black....and none are stiff...I have mated A mealy bar to a grizzle...AOK....I have mated a grizzle to a grizzle..no problem....One of my best cocks...is Bull Eye on one side and a cracked eye on the other and He was an awesome roller in the air and is awesome in the breeder loft...If you went by the wives tales...Then That bird would be a roll down....non kitter....over cooked...unstable stiff..just based on the eyes...LOL
Do what works in your loft
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Steve_uk
22 posts
Jan 02, 2007
2:21 PM
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Grab yourself a chill pill bruv your gunna have yehself a cardiac arrest!!!!
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Missouri-Flyer
85 posts
Jan 02, 2007
2:24 PM
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is it possible that we as breeders and flyers of the BR put to much thought into the writings of past fanciers, such as Pensom, and forget that we are raising these birds in a different time than in which he wrote? Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2007 2:26 PM
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Steve_uk
23 posts
Jan 02, 2007
2:27 PM
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here here jerry my man, lets move on.
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STARFIRE
277 posts
Jan 02, 2007
2:48 PM
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-Hi Steve U.K
Simple explanation for that.Thats YOUR bulleyed bird ,from YOUR family.That dosen't mean all bulleyed birds do that.Bulleyes just come into the birds the more white they get on them.Not all,but a lot.If all bulleyed birds act like that one there wouldn't be any around right now.LOL
STARFIRE
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1009 posts
Jan 02, 2007
3:05 PM
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Steve, that looks like a Donek, not a roller. Still cool though. I'd like to have some of them one day to play around with.
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motherlodelofts
1262 posts
Jan 02, 2007
3:20 PM
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Paul wrote:
I mean if it is only hard colors that are stiffs...then Campbell would have kits of stiffs...
(Actually Paul there is a hard and soft side to my birds , the Smokey being the soft side , and yes, I very much do take it into consideration when pairing.)
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1263 posts
Jan 02, 2007
3:22 PM
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Good post Brian !!!
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1264 posts
Jan 02, 2007
3:34 PM
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"is it possible that we as breeders and flyers of the BR put to much thought into the writings of past fanciers, such as Pensom, and forget that we are raising these birds in a different time than in which he wrote? Jerry "
Jerry, anything you read is just like what you read here, you store it away and then down the road you will find whether it applies or not.
If you follow Pensoms writings you will find that some things changed as he progressed forward , you will also find better explainations to things that he wrote prior also that will shed better light on the message that he was trying to get accross , and some of what he wrote just goes over manys head.
Myself I think the man was a genius when it came to these birds,it is especially obvious when you take in as much of the paper trail that he wrote on the breed that you can find.
Scott
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belle
91 posts
Jan 02, 2007
5:19 PM
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that is a donek in that video.
could a pair throw a color that rolls better than the other colors that they can throw? Because I have a pair that will give me black birds that are not as good as the white grizzle they give me.
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belle
92 posts
Jan 02, 2007
5:52 PM
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doneks are a diving breed and the pigeon in the video is diving, Thanks motherlodellofts every time they give me a white grizzle they are all some birds and every thing else is so so I have one white grizzle in the breeding loft and two of his baby's that just started to roll they look like they are going to be good.
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fhtfire
759 posts
Jan 02, 2007
8:13 PM
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Scott,
My mistake my brother...I thought smokey was a hard color...Is Recessive Red a hard color?
So is it just that they are a carrier of the soft color or is it the paint job....So what I am asking...If you mate two of your Blue checks or dark checks together...as long as one is carrying the soft or is does have to have the light paintjob...or is it deeper then that...Trying to learn hear.
My first of comp breeding and part of the second year I took that under cosideration and compared it to the last two years of breeding...with no cosideration and I really did not get a higher percentage of good birds...per my records....I had about the same in roll downs over all...etc...but that is just my loft...Which is shiny and new..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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AIREDALE
47 posts
Jan 03, 2007
2:59 AM
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I think Pensom's writings are still relevent today. I believe that most performing rollers of today are offshoots of his strain.With regard to color he mentioned along with many others,that you can't breed strictly for color and be sucessful.This applies to hard and soft colors.He also stated that all colors can spin.I think he preferred a blend with regards to color and matings.Pensom proponents in the 50's and 60's zeroed in on the color issue as the sole factor in "SPIN".This issue was used to drive out the breeders of other strains, and establish Pensoms as the only "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER".Pensom stated that Bull eyes prevented the determination of Character and Expression to all but the experienced few (mainly himself).In his book, "THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER", the photos of his ideal roller are varied.Some birds seem long,some have flat heads,some appear to be yellows,reds and white.Perhaps,he was just refering to their performance or their expression.Regarding eye color,most of the Pensom strain was orange eyed.I think a lot people feel Wm. Pensom's words are written in stone.I think they are good general guidlines.Pensom was a real pioneer and genius.His followers (PRC)took his writings out of context and used them to promote their agenda. John
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Velo99
818 posts
Jan 03, 2007
5:13 AM
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In my opinion, We have probably moved the breed forward to am extent that the founders would be amazed at what we have accomplished.In 1869 when the roller came to this continent,via Canada. Ity was still in the developmental stage. this was the Whittingham. It becam known as the North American High Flyer,the Birmingham arrived shortly after.
When I read Pensoms description of the performance of a roller,I was thinking that it sounds more like a young bird than a premium roller. Pensoms description would not be scored very well with the performance standard put forth by the WC and NBRC. In that aspect I feel we have changed the performance of the breed to a finer focus.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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motherlodelofts
1269 posts
Jan 03, 2007
6:28 AM
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Paul, what Pensom was referring to is how charactor "tends" to follow hard and soft colors, the weaker the charactor the hotter the bird, the stronger the more control.
My family isn't a hot family and I have to be careful that it doesn't go stiff on me which it could do if I didnt pay attention, I get some real hammer speed on of the stronger side (dirty), and frequency off of the softer side (smokey) on a whole.
Of coarse the actual overall charactor of the bird plays in first when pairing so yes it goes deeper than that and is no way a blanket statement to mate this to that soley on hard or soft side or soft color to hard color.
My rec. reds are more of the washed out type with blue showing through, they tend to be the softer side but it is rare that they run too hot.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2007 6:32 AM
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motherlodelofts
1270 posts
Jan 03, 2007
6:36 AM
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Airdale , not all the picture in his book were his or of top qaulity birds , one or two were even culls , I have a list somewhere of the history of all the birds pictured.
Scott
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Missouri-Flyer
88 posts
Jan 03, 2007
6:41 AM
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Hi Scott,
I agree, but I guess what I was trying to say, is that in the hardcore Pensom time there were followers who tried with all their mite to follow every aspect of what he was preaching, and had success. With that said, fast forward many years, and to an extent, a different bird. Now dont get me wrong, the pigeons today in my eyes are just as good as what he was working with, but we as breeders have changed and modified the BR to our likings. I am known for having a pigeon book in my patrol car while on duty, and yes at times I do have time to park and read. After reading as much as I have, I still believe that times and the way they are bred have changed. Of course this is just my opinion, and nothing meant of it. Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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AIREDALE
48 posts
Jan 03, 2007
6:44 AM
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Scott, Good post about your birds. I believe at the beginning of the book,Pensom states that not all the birds pictured were his, but they represented the ideal. Could be wrong. John
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motherlodelofts
1271 posts
Jan 03, 2007
7:22 AM
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John, I'll see if I can find that list , some have detail info while others don't except for where they came from and what they were out of.
Some also evolved around show and performance while I believe some just names how a particular bird did in show.
It's all pretty interesting stuff.
I know of one that Penson called a cull.
Scott
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AIREDALE
49 posts
Jan 03, 2007
7:38 AM
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Thanks Scott that might prove interesting.I think this thread and views on Pensom are more productive than the color/mongrel threads of the past.Your opinions on Pensom are intresting. What theories of his are true and which are'nt? Thanks, John
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fhtfire
761 posts
Jan 03, 2007
5:19 PM
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Scott,
Thanks a million for answering my question. I kind of use what you say when I put my pairs together. Over all character...and I use some gut feeling from knowing the pairings that I have of the parents or Grand parents. I am really starting to see what will work and what will not. My new pairings I put together this year...turned out pretty good..with one pairing I am going to try something different. Again thanks...I will call you on Friday...I have a couple other questions.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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quickspin
637 posts
May 21, 2008
3:52 PM
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Good Info
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SALAS LOFT
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