luis
96 posts
Jan 03, 2007
8:59 PM
|
What guidelines do you use for pairing up your birds,and what do you hope to accomplish?Feel free to go into detail as this will be very educational for some of us newer guys.
|
nicksiders
1163 posts
Jan 03, 2007
9:05 PM
|
Pair best to best for the newbies until they learn more about some intangibles that sometimes is a matter of the gut feel. That "gut feel" comes after some experience and a lot of education....which comes from listening and reading and watching.
This may sound too simple, but think about it before moving on to other things or posts. It is very involved because first you have to learn what actually constitutes your best birds.
Next.
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2007 9:18 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
952 posts
Jan 04, 2007
5:26 AM
|
Nick.I agree 100%.Best to Best will work for anyone new or old the majority of the time.Even the gut feelin takes 3 to 5 years of working with a family of rollers to kick in.It does me anyway.LOL.Even then it is hit and miss. David
|
luis
99 posts
Jan 04, 2007
3:15 PM
|
Guys that is why i asked for detail.I'm always willing to learn if experienced guys are willing to teach,and i'm sure there is a lot of experienced guys on this site.Also i'm interested in how you all came to those conclusions.
Gives us all something good to read besides the color debates.....ha,ha,ha.
|
MILO
96 posts
Jan 04, 2007
4:19 PM
|
If I could give you any advice to begin with it would be to find a balance in everything you do in the loft. By this I am refering to balanced matings mainly. Pay close attention to the birds in the air and take good notes. When pairing up birds you have stocked, you can go back and refer to them. Once you find the roll, and the attributes you feel are the ones you prefer, build around it. It will take a few years, but you will have birds you can be proud of. It is a simple guideline, but something to shoot for.
c
|
C.J.
863 posts
Jan 04, 2007
4:23 PM
|
Luis You need to know what you are looking for in YOUR birds. Each guys likes it a little different. The best advice I can give you is keep excellent records. Breeding two birds together won't do anything if you don't keep records. If you have the records and find out a certain pairing gives you a high persent of young that roll down or don't develop into the roll then you don't breed that pair together anymore. Break them up and breed them to another set of birds. Or if you get a click pair (two birds that have high percentages of young that are excellent young) you work with that pair. Give us some help. How deep does your best cock bird and hen roll? Is it a clean roll? Are you planning on using fosters? Are you going to use breeding pens or open loft? Howe many of your birds would you consider good rollers? What do you consider a good roller?
These are all thungs that need to be answered.
Thanks
C.J.
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2007 4:24 PM
|
Velo99
827 posts
Jan 04, 2007
4:56 PM
|
Luis,
The saying is garbage in,garbage out.We really can`t tell you exactly how to pair your birds because there are so many different ways and means to do so.
So generally speaking when picking from the air it is imperative to select only the birds that are as close to perfect as you can possibly get. From frequency and depth of roll in the cockbirds to quality and style in both birds.
Do they feel similar in build. Do they perfom similarly? Balance as Milo said is really important. The first season or two don`t expect too much and be ready to go back and try again if it doesn`t work.
Good Luck bro
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
luis
104 posts
Jan 04, 2007
11:54 PM
|
Well C.J as far as my stock is concerned i have some outstanding cock birds from very reputable breeders here in So. Ca.I didn't have the guts to fly them since i paid a pretty penny for most of them at auctions.As far as their performance it's all heresay from the breeders(but i'm pretty sure i have some good birds).My hen side its not as good hoping to better that soon.Nonetheless i think i can work with what i have for now.I'm basicly trying to balance out my pairings based on the type of bird i want.Once i start flying the young i will have a better idea as to who is producing and who is not.I'm new to rollers(for comp) but not to pigeons so i think i'll have success.
Also i breed strictly out of pens.Don't like the "if" factor in my birds.Also i do use fosters to get more out of my favorite pairs(6 pairs i really like),6 foster pairs and 3 experimental pairs(to test out some theories)
Thanks for the input.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2007 10:14 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
957 posts
Jan 05, 2007
3:28 AM
|
Luis.A few things from a Color breeder that breeds for performance.LOL.
When I am trying new pairs and don't know first hand about their background I try to do this.
Never mate a larger hen to a smaller cock.
Mate a Pearl or Gravel eye to a Orange or Yellow eye.
Mate the dark color to a light color.
Mate the ones that have the wing tips closest to the end of the tail feathers together.
Mate one with the eye pupil off center with a Blue Check Self.(if I have one)
I think it was Milo that said just good overall balance.
I have show cages I put them in and try to pair them together where the pairs looks good together.
If I am trying 4 pair I start with the cock I like best along with the hen I like best.Then I do the same with the others.I may spent an entire afternoon switching them around untill I am satisfied I have mated them the best I know how in the cages.I like to walk away for 15 minutes or so and come back to them and rethink what I have done.After that I just let nature take its course and go from there.
Just what I do and believe in. David
|
Velo99
829 posts
Jan 05, 2007
5:10 AM
|
Dave,
Been there,done that.Sunday as a matter of fact.lol
Still not really satisifed yet,but I guess I will run what I brung.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
luis
105 posts
Jan 05, 2007
10:27 AM
|
Thanks for the info David.I have some colored birds(qualmonds,almonds,yellows). As i move forward with breeding i will work hard to get some with quality and type(will be studying some of the color theories).I'm sure in time i'll have them.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
958 posts
Jan 05, 2007
10:58 AM
|
Luis.No matter what Color,Pattern,Factor or Modifier you are working with as long as you only select the best performers you raise and breed back to the best you already have you will eventually get whatever color,type and performers you want.Breed for performance first and everything else will follow along. David
|
sippi
10 posts
Jan 05, 2007
11:00 AM
|
David I thought that was a very good post for beginners to read. It was simple and to the point expanding as to what balance means. I think you should post it on the other site also.
Paul
|
luis
112 posts
Jan 07, 2007
10:37 PM
|
Dave going over your post,i became curious over 2 things you wrote and wanted to find out the reasoning behind the theory.
1.Never mate a larger hen to a smaller cock.
2.Mate birds with the wingtips closest to the tailfeathers together.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
961 posts
Jan 08, 2007
3:43 AM
|
Luis.I feel the Cock carries the family line and controls the depth of the roll.And personally I just don't like to see a pair where the hen is larger than the cock.Just looks out of balance to me.
In my family I have wingtips from 3/4 of an inch to 1/4 inch from the tip of the tail.I have found that the ones with the wingtips closest to the end of the tail have been my faster and tighter rollers.David
|
fhtfire
770 posts
Jan 08, 2007
8:10 AM
|
All I can comment on is like what Nick said...It is the Gut feeling...I mate the best to best...but the gut feeling is always poking its ugly head. One thing I will do...for example..if I have a new cock that I am pulling from the A-team to the stock loft....I will put him on my two best hens and then and then an "OK" hen and then a hen that I pull with him from the A-team. Then I get a kind of guage of what this cock does. I do the same with the new hens....two best cocks...and OK cock and then the cock I pull with her..I do not do not do it in that order..I usually decide what cock or hen to start with...based on the timing in my loft.
When you start to know your birds...you will get those funny feelings about a certain bird in the loft...you never know unless you try....mother nature is just like that hot girl in high school....unless you try and ask her to the prom you will never know..the worst that can happen is that she can say no...
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
1039 posts
Jan 08, 2007
11:20 AM
|
Its funny because Chan Grover called me last night and we talked about a lot of things, one of them being him asking me what do I look for and how to I pair up my birds. The answer was long but part of it is as Paul mentioned, a developed gut instinct. But that instinct is partially developed and confirmed by experience with the birds you are breeding from. I seldom pair up the same birds together in an attempt to learn more about the birds. This year I did put a couple of pairs back together that produced well last year. The rest is a balancing act. Having only selected for and bred from birds which kitted, kitting isn't a question anymore. Fast flying was culled, instability has been worked around. Stiffs are out. So the meat of the birds are birds which, for the most part, all possess a very similar surface package, that being they rolled and performed properly along with being easy to manage and willinness to be a team player. There hearts and minds are pretty much all in the same bucket, so the degree of variance is then analyzed in terms of performance, speed, depth, frequency, etc. This year, that is pretty much the only things I had to consider about my matings, purely the performance of the spin.
Brian.
|
Shaun
402 posts
Jan 08, 2007
11:38 AM
|
Brian, you've mentioned before about your tendency not to keep the same pairs together. It does seem to oppose the direction that many will head - trying to find a click pair. Whilst I can see the logic of trying a particular bird with different mates, to test its purebreeding prowess (progeny testing), I would certainly be tempted to keep together any pair which seemed to be kicking out more than their fair share of good rollers. Is there any particular reason why you tend, as a matter of course, to changing your pairings each season, regardless of what happened with a pair the season before?
Shaun
|
longarm
31 posts
Jan 08, 2007
12:30 PM
|
shaun
What brian does is for those who have worked many of the kinks out of his family and has them where he is comfortable with them. from there they should be played with to look for that bird who is one step up from the next. When you look for that klick pair and breed a lot from them you are keeping your performance curve flat which is ok as you build a stud of high end birds. once you have stocked birds that are very prdictable than it is time to raise the bar and look for a pair that clicks one better and start all over agian. I have found this method to be the best for me as well. I will switch pairs every three rounds through the year and documnet closely what and where. then if I have a pair that threw something great I ensure they breed first rotation next year then so on and so forth untill I am raiseing birds that are a higher quality than what I have in the stock loft and they begin replaceing my lower rated breeders. c.j.
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
1040 posts
Jan 08, 2007
12:56 PM
|
"Is there any particular reason why you tend, as a matter of course, to changing your pairings each season, regardless of what happened with a pair the season before?"
Shaun, CJ hit the general description pretty good.
My reasons? Well I don't believe in just resting my laurels on a click pair. In a way, you don't really achieve much in terms of moving forward. It's a slippery slope. As is said sooooo many times, this roller game is a constantly moving target that you can never really settle down to one aiming point. I don't think many of us really ever have a click pair. I believe some people will experience a pair that produces a higher percentage of birds which meet the fancier's requirements. I guess to some that is probably a click pair. In rollers I would consider a click pair a pair which produce between 50-75 percent above average to really good young that are A team quality. I believe to really know if you have a click pair you have to breed a lot of young from them.
For some reason I have cultivated an interest in finding the production tendencies of the birds I breed from. This doesn't happen in one or two pairs, it sometimes requires three or four different matings to get a feel for the production tendencies. You have to remember that I am not looking to raise one superstar, but as many really good competition kit birds as I can that have the fewest managing faults as possible.
I'll use your situation as an example.
You got birds from George and Dave and basically knew nothing about their breeding potential. Since they weren't being flown, but were to be bred, their performance criteria was pretty much nil and void. So you concentrate on one thing, breeding them and flying out their young to determine their worth and production tendencies. In a year or two of doing so, if you only bred them to the same bird you originally mated them to within that family you acquired, how much would you feel you have really learned about each bird? Not as much as if you were to move the birds around on different mates BASED ON WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM THEIR OFFSPRING. Now that isn't necessarily the best information to glean from them, but it is all you have to go by, so you use it to your advantage. After a couple of years some birds should begin to rise to the top in terms of production. I always try to remember that what birds are working are the parents to the birds which can be found in the A team.
Then if you begin to see that some birds throw more depth, some throw more speed, some throw more negatives than positives, etc, you can start to create a mental picture of how each bird can possibly work when mated to what you think is a complimenting bird. This is part of that gut instinct that was mentioned. When you know the birds or feel you know more about them, you can make gut decisions based on experience.
One of the benefits I think is fruitful from such a situation is that when you begin to discover the goods from certain birds, you often end up with a nice collection of half-brother and sisters and cousins which are what I think are perfect for rounding up the gene pool around good qualities. It is my opinion that the person will have more control over the production of his birds if he knows them and have produced enough that are soon related.
Brian.
|
Shaun
403 posts
Jan 08, 2007
1:43 PM
|
Yes, I'm with you both - it depends on where you are in the overall scheme of things. The first birds I got from George Mason and Dave Moseley, I flew out. They were proportionately better rollers than the many I've subsequently bred from their offspring. But, that's to be expected - those original birds were from proven breeders, whilst I'm breeding from an unknown quantity. However, 2 pairs from 8 have produced a higher proportion of the good birds, so I'm hesitant at chancing a season experimenting with different matings from those particular good pairs. I know that even the best birds can vary from one year to the next, so I imagined it would be best to keep them together to carry on with the progeny testing, rather than muddy the waters with pair switching.
Shaun
|
J_Star
742 posts
Jan 08, 2007
7:01 PM
|
I look at it differently. If you have a homogenious family that is well inbreed and all the birds behavior, performance, type, character, style and flying pattern are the same then no matter how you breed them together as long as you don't double up on certain faults the outcome is very desirable. faults don't have to be performance, rather cosmatic. I like to breed the best daughter back to the father every couple of years when the hen proves itself. You can tell when the young exhibit performance better than the parents or as equal to the better parent. That youngster will be in the breeding loft either with his mom or her dad. I only keep 8 breeders pair not 25 to 30 pairs. With small number of breeders, this method is advancing the performance level a notch every season. This is just my way of handling the breeders in my loft.
Jay
|
JMUrbon
196 posts
Jan 10, 2007
7:31 PM
|
Like Jay said, to me percentages far outweigh sheer numbers. I like to keep my breeding program down to 8-9 pair and over the years of selecting birds for my stock loft I have found that the largest percentage of stock quality birds were related to 2 or 3 birds and thus they are all very closely related now. I think that the talk of old about this birds depth or that birds depth is long gone. Most that breed rollers seriously dont have to breed for depth. I know that I look primarily at the style and speed along with the charachter of the bird. The depth is there and has consistantly come out. I look for a bird that I like .That doesnt mean it has to be a particular color or pattern but rather it has to have the traits that I like in a bird.
There are colors that I prefer but due to the tight gene pool that I have my birds appearances are pretty easy to predict. I would like to have some white flighted birds with the quality that I see in mine but I am not willing to add something in just to get them so I guess I am going to have to continue raising blacks and reds.
Getting back to the original thread I to believe that alot of what we do comes down to a gut feeling. We can say that we put a pair together for a certain reason but the bottom line is its a gut feeling most of the time. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Alohazona
226 posts
Jan 10, 2007
10:22 PM
|
Shaun,
I think it would be advantageous for you to switch mates on those two better pairs.I think you will find your percentages to be just as good if not better.The unknown potential out weighs the predictable in my books,in relation to moving your breeding program forward.If the youngsters are doing it right,the inheirant potential is there waiting to be tapped.If I wasn't able to do it myself,I wouldn't recommend it.I would say it saved me 1 1/2 years,and produced me 3 stars.When I am ready for them,they will be in the stock pen.Linebreeding,with a careful selection of inbreeding is my current path.No matter how they are related quality,velocity,and health.I also feel that handling birds is very informative.Not the type of handling thats done because a bird is handed to you and its popular to do,but a very inquizative type of handling,that distinguishes a bird,like watching it perform in the air...Aloha,Todd
|
Shaun
406 posts
Jan 11, 2007
12:29 AM
|
Todd, the Mason birds are so tightly bred that when I get to the stage to pick birds from the air as future breeders, George had no qualms about me pairing brother to sister, should the best ones turn out to be siblings. To begin with, though, I've had to breed from mainly unflown youngsters. I can't tighten the gene pool any further - George has taken care of that over 40 years - so, all I feel I can do is focus on the best ones which pop out, see which parents have the best percentages and keep going until I can produce good birds in numbers.
It's at this point yourself and Brian are thinking in a different way to me. I would feel like kicking myself if, for 2007, I could have had more decent youngsters from the same two good pairs, but by splitting them, they failed with their new mates and I've wasted a year.
Another side of me says it's good to experiment, so perhaps the answer is to first breed a round or two with those same good pairs, then split them up and breed more with new mates and compare.
There, sorted!
Shaun
|
Velo99
845 posts
Jan 11, 2007
4:55 AM
|
Jay,BMC,Todd.
Shaun,Cliff,Myself and several others are in about the same stage of development in our programs. What we are needing to do is to fill kitboxes.I for one have found a couple of pairs that make pretty good flyers.So I`ll keep breeding these pairs together for another season. I am pretty sure they will give me some good percentages to work with. My thinking is to get a decent number of birds from the same 4-6 breeders. Then next season I have the birds from `06 to put back on the parents. Next season will be a good one for me as I can finally start line breeding and quit looking for breeding pairs.
How long did it takes you guys to get where you can get by on 6-10 pairs of breeders? I just don`t have the room or desire to expand to more than what have now.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
Shaun
407 posts
Jan 11, 2007
11:04 AM
|
Kenny, you're right on the money, there. If success with rollers (in whichever way the individual imagines success to be), can be viewed as some sort of Road to Damascus, then we're all at different stages along that same long road. Inevitably, this will mean the absolute newbie making different breeding choices to those, like us, who are a bit further on. Then there's the guys who've been at the game longer still (I'm thinking of a Paul here) who will still be making different breeding choices to those, who are yet more advanced, who've broken the back of their journey (say, the likes of Brian, Scott and KGB).
I really want my rollers to start producing in better numbers, but by not yet having the luxury of proven breeders, it's very hit and miss. Experimentation has its place, but having produced just a few decent young birds in 2006, with the rest only average or below, I'm certainly inclined (as Paul would say) to start circling the wagons around those birds which did manage to produce the goods.
Shaun
|
Ally Mac
144 posts
Jan 11, 2007
2:18 PM
|
Shaun.
Why not leave the better breedres together as you would prefer and try swaping the less good ones around. maybe you would be plesantly surprised.
Al.
|
Shaun
409 posts
Jan 11, 2007
2:28 PM
|
Al, that's exactly what I intended to do. What do you have planned for 2007 - peregrine permitting?
Shaun
|
Velo99
847 posts
Jan 11, 2007
3:50 PM
|
Shaun,
Paul is a season ahead and a pretty good guy for a fireman. I watch him like a hawk. He has been pretty successful as a breeder and just needs to catch a break to be a top class flyer. He is in pretty tough region.
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
|
Shaun
410 posts
Jan 12, 2007
1:30 AM
|
Absolutely, Kenny. I've read so many of Paul's posts and others about where he's at, that I can appreciate how far ahead of the likes of me he is.
Shaun
|
Ally Mac
145 posts
Jan 12, 2007
3:11 PM
|
Hi Shaun.
Just put down the birds I bred from Daves, 9 pair, got 3 eggs today. Pretty much guess work though as they never got a chance to prove themselves in the air. Another year of experiments! sound familiar? Only want 30 myself this year, realised I can really only do justice to one kit so I will concentrate on them and see how things go.
Good news is I have a pal interested so i will breed him 20 too.
Hopeing this wind will die away here, storms for the last week or so now.
Al.
|
Shaun
411 posts
Jan 12, 2007
11:18 PM
|
Al, the weather's been attrocious here too. I've also had to lock up the birds due to my sparrowhawks, so overall I'm disappointed with the amount of flying time my two young kits have had. What concerns me is breeding more in 2007 when the 2006 birds haven't been properly evaluated. The easy answer to that is not to breed any more, but I feel we have to, so as to keep testing the pairs we put together.
I think it's great that you're breeding a kit for someone else. Presumably, you'll be able to see how those youngsters get on, as well as your own, which will help give you a better idea about your pairings this year.
Shaun
|
John
44 posts
Jan 13, 2007
9:35 PM
|
Luis,
I breed my brids with balance in mind. the first thing is feather quality ( hard to soft). Then relationship (Not to close, no 3/4 or full brother - sister). I keep a few pair that don't show any close relations to the other birds for a out cross within your family but are still a part of your family. then there is the profromance. I try to use birds that compliment each other. I don't mate two real frequent birds together because I don't want birds flying around like they have the hiccups. Meaning fly behind the kit just flipping and can't keep up with the kit. I don't mate two very deep birds because I don't want to keep picking them up out of the streets. I try and breed the way I got the birds from bred the birds. They know the family and have done the homwork and made the mistakes, so why should I repete their mistakes?
I got all my birds from Steve Agent of Maryland except for a few pair. The few pair came from Sal Estrada but steve owned the parents of the pairs I got from Sal. The birds originally came from Norm Reed. Therefore they are the same family. I try to breed the birds the way that Steve has bred the birds for the last 8-9 years. I don't want to into any more detail about the way the birds are bred because Steve has a artical coming out in the next bulletin. The Artical will give all the details on the way he breeds. His method seems to go against the tradional way of doing things but let me tell you that it works well on this family of birds.
John Moore
|
luis
124 posts
Jan 13, 2007
10:13 PM
|
Thanks for the post John,i appreciate you sharing your ideas w/me on this topic.
|
BR Rollers
71 posts
Jan 13, 2007
10:23 PM
|
Great post John!
I started with only the 3 pair of John's excellent birds. The birds are already worked out as far as having to do much in the culling department. I raised 80% good flyers from pair 1. About the same for pair 2. Pair 3 didn't do so well. I got birds that wouldn't cut it for competiton quality.
I am not going to try different pairings this year except the one pair I will split up and breed them to the best I raised off the other 2 pairs. Keeping my family from inheriting any not known bad habits.
The most interesting thing is these birds were stocked out of the nest and not flown out. They only needed minor adjustments this year. I just cant say enough about the quality and how they have been worked out over many years to get them this way.
Thanks again my friend, you are a true Roller man.
|
John
45 posts
Jan 14, 2007
8:58 AM
|
Luis,
No problem, I hope it helps you out. I know it goes against the grain of most breeding programs but it works.
Ronnie,
Thanks for the kind words but I cann't take the credit for how these work or produce, that has to go to Steve Agent. I've only had them for a few seasons but Steve worked with them for 6 or 7 years before me. One thing I forgot to mention was about click pair. Change the matings every year so find the pre-potent birds. How do know if that cock or hen wouldn't produce well on another cock or hen? If you don't change the matings and are so worried about a click pair,then you would never know. You can always go back to the other matings if it doesn't work. When I first got the birds I changed the matings in mid breeding season. After two or three rounds I would try different cocks on different hens. This way I would have 1/2 brother-sisters and find out very quick who produces what.Each cock has been bred to two different hens during the season.There may be a cock or hen that produces well on any mate that you pair it with and that's what you through out your breeding program.Cocks and hens that produce no matter who you mate them to.
John Moore
|
scotty
44 posts
Jan 18, 2007
2:02 AM
|
I breed the ro gene with rolling pigeons; See the website mangile's pigeon pages,and look up mutant's. I find a pair that produces the goods,and breed the heck out of them, using foster parents.Simple, but it works for me.Scotty
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2007 2:12 AM
|
ICEMAN710
436 posts
Jul 22, 2008
4:25 AM
|
good one
----------
Gary
|