Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1018 posts
Jan 09, 2007
11:49 AM
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Fellow Roller Fanciers:
I am looking for some help. I am trying to obtain a conditional use permit to keep my birds in Richfield. Someone complained that I "had pigeons", no specifics and was told by a Richfield City Police Officer that I had to remove my birds out of the City. I am in the process of obtaining signatures for a petition to keep my birds by my surrounding neighbors (I hope to obtain 60+). Richfield's ordinance is quite specific in that is states pigeons are absolutely prohibited within city limits. I was looking for what others have done to keep their birds. I would like to get a variance from the city and am scheduled for council meeting January 23, 2007. If any one has a copy of the ordinance or variance they have had to apply for will please supply me with a copy. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason Brown
636 S. 300 W.
Richfield, UT 84701
435.896.5943
435.896.8268 fax
435.979.7631 cell
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Contact Jason as soon as you can if you are able to help or point him in the right direction.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Steve_uk
35 posts
Jan 09, 2007
11:56 AM
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Thats absolutley ridiculous!!!!
Good luck i feel for yeh.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2007 11:57 AM
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bman
160 posts
Jan 09, 2007
12:03 PM
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If someone on here belongs to the American Racing Union perhaps than could elicite their help.They have a lot of resources.
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Ron
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1047 posts
Jan 09, 2007
12:04 PM
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Um, I'm not sure that a police officer can enforce city ordinances or codes. I believe he wouldn't have to do anything unless presented with a citation from a city inspector. Just a cop telling him he has to get rid of them has no bearing. Of course there could be other details we are not privledged to.
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kcfirl
31 posts
Jan 09, 2007
12:15 PM
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I went through this West Sacramento about 4 years ago. A city code emforcement officer cited me. I went to 3 hearings and they finally dismissed the charges.
However, if there is city code that says you can't have pigeons in the city, then the only way you'll win is if you can get the city code changed. You will likely need a lawyer for that. In my specific case, the law was not clear and actually cited non-existing fish and game code.
My advice would be to move to a city where pigeons are allowed.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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Spud
63 posts
Jan 09, 2007
1:22 PM
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I suggeted he look at the Salt Lake Ordance for help as they allow pigeons under certain conditinos and that might open the door to him with his city cousel. As far as the AU helping, I'm a member of the AU and their resorces are for AU MEMBERS ONLY. The reason is, members pay the way, and non memeber always want to access their resources when they get in a pinch. Bottom line, if you want AU help you gotta to have paid your dues!
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bman
163 posts
Jan 09, 2007
2:11 PM
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Hey Spud,
I don't expect a battery of lawyers from the AU but you being a memeber maybe You could contact any members in that area and steer him in the right direction.Or maybe they had this situation arise and see how they resolved it?
Guy is looking for a little help here.
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Ron
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bman
164 posts
Jan 09, 2007
2:57 PM
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Thanks Spud,
You were already ahead of me.lol
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Ron
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JMUrbon
192 posts
Jan 09, 2007
3:54 PM
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Guys I stayed at Jasons house when I judged the Utah WC regionals and he is a real class act that is really involved with the Utah state roller club and his two young sons are just as interested in the birds as he. If there were ever anybody that deserved the help in this situation it would be Jason. Thank you Tony for getting this on. I just got home and he had emailed me the same info and I was actually comming on RP.com to post this very post. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2007 3:55 PM
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Oldfart
16 posts
Jan 09, 2007
4:52 PM
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I'm not sure if any of this will help but in the early 70's
the local government in my area tried to prohibit the keeping of pigeons within city limits. At that time they tried to say the were poultry and not allowed within the city limits. Our local club went to the City Council meetings and contested the decision on the grounds that pigeons were not poultry but birds and if birds were not allowed then all birds would have to be banned and the local goverenment would be responsible for removeing them, all of them. Wild birds, pet birds any bird. They also would have to keep them out of the city. WE Won and they left us alone after that. Your case is not exactly the same but if some pressure could be brought along those lines or just that your pigeons are pets as any parrot or love bird or parkeet ecc. and not the same as wild pigeons.
Best of luck, I hope you prevail.
Thom
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fhtfire
773 posts
Jan 09, 2007
6:16 PM
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I think that you are on the right track with the signatures of you neighbors. I would also get as many pigeon people to the city council meeting as possible. I would bring documentation about pigeons....I mean positive documentation....from G.I. Joe in WW2 to the positive aspects of pigeons. If you have a real nice set up..take some photos of your set up. Bring some documentation about pigeons being one of the oldest hobbies in the U.S. and in the World. I would get something in writing from Avian vets or University people...or the people that are running project pigeon watch...so that they can put in writing that domestic pigeons that are being cared for in the proper manner are not a threat to humans or disease infested little rats like your street pigeons....make a list of all the suplements and feed that you feed your birds and vaccines that you may or may not use...THat your birds are banded and records are kept as well as pedigrees.I would also write in detail the history of the Birmingham Roller and maybe some photo illistrations of a bird rolling and how you care for them and fly them...and that they are trained to trap immediatly and not "hang out". You could get a facts sheet...on how many members are in the NBRC and maybe a little bit about competition and the amount of teams world wide and nationally that enter the flys....or the amount of pigeon fanciers in the US.
Invite the council members to your house to watch them fly and show them how fast they trap. Education is the key...the ordinance could have been some old ordinance that has never been challenged. Have them give you reasons why....they are not allowed...especially if you have documentation from a vet that says that there is no more of a threat to humans then a cat.
Put all your information in a nice little packet with a copy for every council member...Not to much info...but enough to plead your case in a professional manner...facts about pigeons..mate for life...pigeon milk..both care for the young.., written documentation from a vet or avian person, history of the pigeon, history of the BR..some nice photos, your list of meds and vitamins, your loft cleaning schedule..competitions....or a list of other cities that do not have ordinances on pigeons....if you come prepared with documentation and present it with class....and give them time to think on it...tell them you have no problem with a permit purchase etc....and make sure you have a list of signatures from your neighbors or in fact anybody in your city....the people talk and the people elect to officials...
If you can get the signature of some individuals with some pull in your city that are animal lovers..like business owners, police officers, political figures....trust me..you get enough signatures..and education....they can change an ordinance with one vote.
Anyway..I feel for you buddy....but they have to have a damn good reason to enforce such and ordinance.
rock and ROll
Paul
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fhtfire
774 posts
Jan 09, 2007
6:17 PM
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Or how about a list from here...we could start a list of names in support with our names, occupation, and City and state we live in and our e-mail. Tony...I am sure could build something on this site that can be printed and we can just keep adding to it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
750 posts
Jan 09, 2007
6:35 PM
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If my memory serves me correctly, in the past two or three issues of the NBRC bulliten there was a pretty good long article about the same subject and how to handle it correctly and win. I recommend if anybody have that back issue of the NBRC bulliten make copies of those pages and send it to him. It will be a great help. Good luck and I wish you the best.
I beleive the decision will come back that the city council will allow you to keep up to 50 pegions at any one time. But when that happen, then who is counting?
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2007 6:38 PM
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centralvalleylofts
55 posts
Jan 09, 2007
6:54 PM
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you guys know we are fighting a war in the middle east.for their freedom such as the taliban who would kill anyone flying pigeons no sooner they were removed you heard the cry of joy from the people and in there joy people started flying pigeons
and this are the things for which we went to war for their freedoms where the hell are our freedoms to fly our birds.
just my thought. steve.
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luis
117 posts
Jan 09, 2007
7:12 PM
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As old fart suggested education and preparation is everything.Let them know you're not throwing in the towel and get as many behind you as you can.I went through a situation where the city wanted me to move my lofts away from my retaining wall(citing ordinances)I told them putting those cages in the middle of my yard wouldn't be to pleasing to the eye(corner house) and that it would create a hazzard for my children in the yard.I got info together,signatures from neighbors and local clubs and they gave me my permit and left me alone.Your situation is a little more difficult but not impossible!
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Heyyou
89 posts
Jan 09, 2007
7:48 PM
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Don't get rid of your birds yet. Go get a copy of the city ordinance and read it thoroughly and get a consult with a lawyer. If it specifically says "pigeons" you have a long and exspensive fight on your hands. If it says poultry or birds not so difficult. Either way they have to cite you before you have to do anything and then you have a right to be heard at a hearing, due process, and go through the motions. You also have a right to know who made the complaint so you can face your accuser, you need to know who this is to know who and how to deal with them. History also plays a part, find out when the ordinance was passed and why if you can. Good luck
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Velo99
841 posts
Jan 10, 2007
4:59 AM
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There is an article in one of this years bulletins written by a statitician about the probablilty of your pigeon droppings landing on one of your neighbors property. I was surprised at the really low probability.
I found it. July/August 06 page 52 title Pigeon Droppings
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2007 5:05 AM
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Outlaw Vizsla
40 posts
Jan 10, 2007
7:07 AM
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I’m not sure how many of you remember, but I went through this same thing this past summer. Irate neighbor anonymously gets the city and Public heath department to cite me for keeping pigeons. The city was easy to deal with mainly because they were too large and didn’t specifically cite pigeons in the code. But the Health Dept put my a$$ through the ringer. (I’m still pretty certain that the ticked off neighbor had a friend in the dept. and thats why I got no where with these people)
When I contacted the Public health dept about the citation I was informed that a site inspection would need to be done and detailed records from an avian vet provided to show proof of proper care. Ok no problem I invited the guy out to see the birds fly and check out my setup like Paul suggested. At which point the guy told me that he wasn’t allowed to do the site inspection that I had to pay for a contract vet to come out and inspect my site…$500 I believe is what he quoted me. Next when I explained that I do all my own vaccinations and health care on the birds the dude totally flew off the handle, he started asking how many birds I had (at the time I was at about 20-25 total) He then started telling me that I would have to have another vet come out(contracted vet fee ~$500, cause the first guy wouldn’t be allowed to do the physical exams on the birds) and we would be paying I believe ~$100-$150 per bird to have blood work done and a physical exam of each bird. Now I’m possibly looking at ~$3000 - $4750 just to get a damn permit to keep these birds. Here was the kicker …if the bloodwork from any of the birds came back showing anything…the entire loft would have to be destroyed, and the birds removed from site and destroyed as well. All costs associated with said work to be absorbed by me.
I don’t mind putting some amount of money out to work these types of situations out, but the costs associated to deal with the health department didn’t guarantee that I would get the permit after everything was “OK.” The Health Department after completing their inspection would then put out a questionnaire to my neighborhood and the surrounding 2 mile radius of my house informing the public that I had pigeons and asking if they had problems with that(the document also would contain all of our personal information, address, phone numbers, etc.) Depending on the replies back to the health department they could still deny me the permit to keep the birds on my property. However if by some chance the replies back to the health dept were ok’d… I would then be given a permit that could be revoked at anytime due to complaint or violation and subject to yearly inspections.
So…after all of that I had planned on fighting it, till I was told by a lawyer friend of mine that even after all of this(and with the threats we’d received from this neighbor already) that there was still a chance that the neighbor could file a lawsuit against us for having the birds. At that point I chose not to fight it, anytime the neighbor opens his mouth I call the police and file a report for harassment. I told the health dept to pound sand and elected to move my birds off the property and to the farm I train my dogs at. I at least get to fly my birds a couple of times a week and I still have them.
We are in the process of selling our house that we have only been in for 4 years. I’ll be lucky to break even; in fact will probably loose money.
Hopefully your experience dealing with the city won’t be nearly as horrible as mine.
Good Luck,
Matt
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kcfirl
32 posts
Jan 10, 2007
8:46 AM
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Guys,
everything I've read is good info. Paul's ideas are great and I used many of them at my hearings in West Sacramento. I had signatures from all neighbors within 200 yards sayng they like my birds(even the guy that initially complained about my shed being too close to the fence), I had 2 neighbors their testifying how great it was to watch the birds and how they were a positive aspect of the neighborhood, I had fellow pigeon flyers testify on my behalf, I had state law protecting racing pigeons(the same species). I had everything , yet I still had to go in 3 times before a protem judge to get the charges dropped because the city planner(in charge of codes) didn;t want to have to deal with pigeons or anything else. I contacted AARP and had their brochures and backing. ETC!
Finally the judge realized that the city code referenced archaic and no longer existent department of Fish and Game code and therefore was not enforceable since domestic animals was not defined and thus could not include pigeons.
It will however, come down to what the specific wording of the law that they are saying you broke is.
If the city has specific verbage barring the keeping of pigeons, you will lose unless you can get them to change the law and that is a longshot (but not totally impossible).
Could you send the precise verbage of the law they are quoting.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
62 posts
Jan 10, 2007
11:40 PM
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Hello Jason,
As with anything YOU must research for yourself and determine if a police officer can enforce code regarding pigeons in your area. Go to the city planning or code dept. get a copy of the actual code "regarding pigeons" and see what it says. Don't go by what we say on here because EVERY city is different regarding how the codes are enforced. Once you read what is in the actual code for your city your can then best determine a remedy or solution to the problem at hand.
Planet Rock Lofts
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Velo99
850 posts
Jan 12, 2007
11:36 AM
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Okay,
I did a small bit of research and found that Richfield is a small town in the middle of no where. Population 7000. Mostly Mormons 85%. Why would they feel the need to write an ordinance against pigeons in a town that size? Geez Louise.
The server was down on the city gov`t site. I will find out some more stuff as time goes by. I did find one interesting piece of information. There is a forum. If this goes the distance we can do what we do best. lol Also found the city email addy. Troops will be armed with all the info neccessary if the need arises.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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Santandercol
647 posts
Jan 12, 2007
12:27 PM
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Good one Kenny.Excellent work.
VIVA LAS PALOMAS!!!!
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2007 12:28 PM
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Jimbo113
19 posts
Jan 12, 2007
3:58 PM
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Atta Boy Kenny!!!!!
Jim
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"We Don't Rent Pigs"
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chachi
20 posts
Jan 14, 2007
10:44 AM
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It is senseless laws as not keeping pigeons on your property that makes me just plain mad. Now I could see if you did not train your birds and every time they were out they landed on your neighbors roof and crapped on his house making it look like shit. I don't like my birds landing on my own roof! so goes the question, why do we follow these old laws we or even our fathers, and even their fathers weren't around to have a say in or even make. Who is making these god damn stupid laws. What kind of men are we that allows such sniveling to continue. I think I want to run for government 'cause it is some one saying they can't keep a bird in their yard just amps me up! I can't tell you anything legal, but I sure would be going to jail! A normal Joe might make a hundred dollars a day. That last posts equation had thousands of dollars. I would not spend thousands working, I would spend days having people explain to me why an American citizen is sitting in jail because he wants to watch birds fly and feed pigeons on his day off. Oh yeah, I would be a news callin, senator harassing, getting arrested pain in the ass! I would not recommend many follow my advice unless you have a high tolerance for pain for I am not right in the head when it comes to stupidity and ignorance in man and have been known to get a little extreme. Me just venting :)
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2007 10:49 AM
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longarm
36 posts
Jan 14, 2007
5:53 PM
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Thats right bichfield er richfield is a nowhere burg on I-70 in sevier county. I have called my father in law who is a srgnt with the sevier county sheriffs office. as well as the animal control officer who is my wifes uncle. They are looking to see if there is anything they can do. As for the 85% mormen I am not sure about that it may be more like 95 % just form the experiance of a non morman who searched for a job there LOL. They have more experiance with ousting and exterminating that which they dont participate in instead of trying to except it. They have a good size club in the valley. I will try to call justin oakerland and see if he can give some insight as to what there grounds are. c.j.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1024 posts
Jan 17, 2007
10:37 AM
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From Jason...
Fellow Fanciers:
I appreciate all the support and help from so many. I have had many contact me via; email, phone and through others and I just wanted to give you an update. I am currently working with local help regarding my situation. I have started a petition, which has been all positive. My neighbors are very supportive. I will provide an update to what happens with this situation. I am proceeding with caution and ask that no one contact Richfield City officials at this time. I was looking for information with how others have helped change the ordinances where they live. For Richfield City's "absolutely" prohibits "pigeons"...
For those who know me, know I will not give up my birds...they mean too much to me (thanks Joe B & Joe K). I am looking at moving to the county, but want to get the ordinance changed if I can (without harming those w/pigeons and have no complaints, if my case is denied), for there are others within the city that would like to fly. I intend to offend no one with this. I am a true roller nut...along with my boys...thanks for the kind words Joe...and will provide detailed information to the outcome. I understand that so far I have not received an official notice from the city (We think we know how the complaint came about, and will provide that info. later)...I would like to share what information I have gained thus far but I cannot due to the situation, hope you all understand. More later.
Thanks,
Jason Brown
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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BBBrollers
1 post
Jan 17, 2007
4:24 PM
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Roller Troubles:
Following is a site we should all look. Orem City, Utah has a great pigeon ordinance that we can reference. I will be using this as necessary when and if I go before the Richfield City council. I thank all of you for your help. I am received some great references and insite as to how to go about this one.
http://exe.orem.org/CityCode/chap_22.pdf
I will keep ya posted.
Jason Brown
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Santandercol
672 posts
Jan 17, 2007
5:54 PM
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Hey Jason!!! 1st post welcome man.!!!If you have boys ,the country is the place man.Tree forts,whackin' thistles,chasin'frogs!!!Yeah,hang onto those birds whatever you do!!Buena Suerte.Good Luck!
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Kelly
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