centralvalleylofts
58 posts
Jan 14, 2007
6:39 PM
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here we go go with aim new breeding year.how many of you actually have a plan or a purpose to breed for this year just a thought. every time i see guys talking about this is my best pair.but have 20 pairs breeding what is your purpose lets say you breed 100 birds. is it really just to fill the kits.i know guys that do just that knowing that they have the goods on certain pairs why would you just not foster this instead.dont get me wrong im for breeding but breeding responsably. because the less you have the better you become aquainted with the birds in your kit boxes.and your breeding pairs.so when you do start breeding just take a second and think of your purpose
in this years breeding season.you will be happier with the
results.steve
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dave
284 posts
Jan 15, 2007
12:09 AM
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Steve, what's your email. I lost it.
dave
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
969 posts
Jan 15, 2007
3:50 AM
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Steve.Out of every 75 to 100 birds I raise I get one or two that are what I call my Super Stars.They are by far the best birds I raise each year.40 to 60 % of the others are good to excellent rollers but I am after these select few.Yes I have a few pairs that a large percentage of their young is excellent rollers but my Select few have never come from these pairs.2 of the best rollers I ever raised came from my Foster Loft.Nothing planned and I have taken those 2 pair that produced the 2 and fostered a dozen eggs from each and they never produced another of that quality.Thats why I believe in raising a lot of young each year and picking out the best from them.
And I think that is why Bill Pensom raised 300 to 500 every year.Just what I think.LOL.
And I have taken what I call Super Stars and mated them together and never raised any that were of their quality.Thats why I believe so strong in the Hit and Miss theory. David
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motherlodelofts
1298 posts
Jan 15, 2007
7:16 AM
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Steve , my goal is raising a higher percentage of good one's by breeding less, by good one's I mean good solid rollers that are stable with plenty of qaulity roll and decent depth that work well with their team mates and will hold it year after year.
I used to breed too much for numbers and ended up with too many culls , the name of the game for me now is qaulity over qaunity , anybody can breed lots of birds and get a few here and there.
Last year I bred 60 , and I got threefold of good one's compared to when I used to breed 120 or so , the difference is I reconized my mediocre stock and learned who the truely good one's were which came down to just a few birds,I might add it took a few years to reconize these few birds , they are birds that produce good percentages on a host of mates and not just on particular birds.
Once I started filling the stock loft with the prodigy of those few good one's and concentrated on solid inbreeding/linebreeding around these few the whole game changed for me and is anything but hit and miss which is what I had before , I might add that these were already heavily linebred/line breed .
It also tighted the gene pool up even tighter from an already fairly tight gene pool and the kits are much more on the same page as far as consitancy.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2007 7:27 AM
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maxspin
70 posts
Jan 15, 2007
8:18 AM
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Everyone should print Scott's response and pin it to there breeder loft wall. Read it every December when they are thinking of next years pairings.
If you need more birds to fill the kit boxes, the solution is more fosters not more breeders!!!
Keith
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
970 posts
Jan 15, 2007
8:28 AM
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Scott.So what you are saying that by tightning the gene pool and only breeding from a select few in a couple of years you will only have to breed 20 young ones a year and they will all be good?
After all the years of some very knowledgable roller breeders doing this why isn't there a higher percentage of good rollers being raised today?
The percentages of good rollers raised today is just as they were 50 years ago.David
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motherlodelofts
1299 posts
Jan 15, 2007
9:17 AM
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Dave, you can either learn something or not , your choice , some will move forward while others won't , will you ever get 20 out of 20 , doubtful.
As for 50 years ago , you had succesful breeders and others that weren't , same as today.
As for moving it forward , not all birds will inbreed, the faults are to great , and if they won't inbreed the consistancy can't and won't be there , it is really that simple.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2007 9:20 AM
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dave
285 posts
Jan 15, 2007
9:35 AM
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Here's something i think can help and shed some light on breeding.
How I Made My Family And Maintain Them
After many years of breeding the Sweaters I came up with the desired characteristics I was looking for. Most of the Sweaters I got would not breed uniform and could not be inbreed. It is almost impossible to breed fowl that have a lot of different genes in them. Of the first mating I chose the best brother and sister and bred them . I did this for four generations, Each year selecting the most perfect in every way. Why did I do this? The genes in you that have any effect in your looks and performance usually go back at least 4 generation, some times more but mostly 4 generation. So I bred 4 generation, each year discarding any thing I did not like and breeding the ones with what I was looking for. This is the way I (locked ) the genes. After the genes have been locked they are all the same. If you breed mother to son they are still the same, if you breed father to daughter they are all still the same. So when you line breed from here all the genes are still the same. So you fowl will all look the same and perform the same. Each year you still look for the very best to carry own the family. By now you should have many brood pens and a larger selection to make your choices from. If you do not lock the genes this is what will happen. When you breed mother to son you will have 3/4 of her blood, when you breed father to daughter you will have 3/4 his blood. And you still have two different families. What I mean is they will not perform the same and each time you breed them it will change.
To give you my reason for locking the genes, is in the knowledge of genetics. With out getting to technical, a hen will pass mitochondrial genes to her son that he can not pass on. She will also not pass any genes on her sex link side to her daughter. The mitochondrial gene is where most mutation, diseases and genetics disorders take place, so it is important to know where they came from if you should have any problems in this area. So the mating of brother to sister will give the pullet the sex link genes she did not get from her mother. So now you should have as close a blend of genes of the host fowl that can be obtained. I breed this way so I will not have to wonder how my birds will look and perform each year. When you add outside blood to your fowl their genetic makeup will never be the same. There is no such thing as breeding back to pure. You can only breed back to a standard and this is usually appearance. If you get fowl from one breeder and breed it to fowl from another you are starting out with about a six way cross. If they come out OK that is great but try to keep them coming year after year. The next year when you breed the same pair you are likely to get entirely different fowl. Because their genes were never locked and you are getting traits from their ancestors.
This is how I have improved my fowl. By now you should have 50 or so hens and stags. It is to your advantage to have as many fowl as you can afford to chose the ones to keep the family going. By intense observation of your young fowl you will in time see those that seem to be smarter, stronger, better station and etc. These are the ones you choose to breed back. Without a lot of mixed up genes to deal with you will see these good characteristics passed on to the next generation. In time it will become difficult to choose because all your fowl will be identical. These fowl are not only brood fowl but should be excellent battle fowl. If you can not fight your fowl pure why do you keep them. Most families are ruined my adding new blood or by making a bad choice in the ones you select to breed back. INTELLIGENT SELECTION is the name of the game. I can not over emphasize the importance of having as many fowl as possible to make your selection from.
Some will say that inbreeding makes a smaller gene pool. I would rather have a small gene pool with all quality genes as a large one with a lot of good and bad genes. Environment plays a big role in the out come of your breeding. As a matter of fact it is 50%. You can send your fowl to a friend as far away as possible and later bring this blood back to infuse again with your family. A different location can some time improve you birds , but it might also change them for the worst. This is the way I breed and it has worked for me. It may sound controversial but I will leave it to your discretion. I have maintained my Sweaters in this manner for the last 10 years with out any adverse affects or with out any out side infusion. After a couple years you will have enough brood pens so you can breed for several years without breeding the same birds. Birds that have not been breed to each other for several generation is like adding new blood. I am certain that my fowl are better than the first I obtained. I do believe this is the best way to make and maintain a family of fowl for generations to come. I hope this has been of some interest and entertaining to you. The best of luck to you in your breeding. The Professor.
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Mongrel Lofts
258 posts
Jan 15, 2007
10:32 AM
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Dave,
Home run my friend!!! I have studied some of the best game cock breeders, Like Kelso.. I have tried to explain this gene pool pollution in a simple way that those that just want to keep and breed good stock can understand.. Once you have a tight gene pool and family only a fool pollutes them with many out crosses.. You can always out cross and collect rollers but once you out cross a pure family you can never get back to the same.. I explain it like this,, take two clean clear glasses of water.. This is your pure stock bred pure for roll and quality for many years.. Now put a few drops in one of the glasses of red food coloring.. The glass with the drops of food dye is changed to red and forever changed from the pure water, {breed} it was.. Now take some of the polluted water and pour it in the other clear glass of water.. Now mix and match the water back and fourth.. No matter how many times you pour water from one glass { roller } to the next the water {pure family} has changed.. The amount or number doesn't matter, the water {family} has forever changed.. Now put a non performance breed into the mix.. This is like adding a turd to the punch bowl.. This truly pollutes the Family and breed if mixed in.. If lost track of the cess pool of genes created by cross breeders could ruin the pure Birmingham breed in this country.. This is the reason once guys start crossing breeds, not families of rollers,, they have created a new breed not the same as the Birmingham roller.. Off track I know .. Dave, great post and one I hope many will think about and follow for the good of the breed and the Birmingham roller..
I bred a lot of rollers before I found a family with a gene pool that could be bred as a family.. Many if not most roller gene pools are so polluted {crossed up} or messed up with corrective breeding that they can not be inbred or line bred as a family.. This is why real breeders of high quality stock will tell you,, if you can't inbreed or family breed it,, you don't need or want it!! Its a genetic cess pool and you will save many years of struggle by moving on and finding a solid gene pool {family] of rollers that can be bred as a family.. And by all means, stay away from those birds that are breed turds for other things other than quality roll.. Great advise from a cock fighter Dave.. Thanks,, KGB
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2007 10:38 AM
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Velo99
861 posts
Jan 15, 2007
12:25 PM
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Nice reading there Dave. Very informative. I think I am on the right track because of posts like this very one. My plan is pretty much in line with your post, and after the comments of KGB I know I must be learning something.
Thanks Guys
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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dave
286 posts
Jan 15, 2007
12:45 PM
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I got this from another site I belong to. Thought it could help some of us as both gamebirds and our rollers are performance birds. This was written by Mr. Boles, I believe.
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Velo99
862 posts
Jan 15, 2007
1:13 PM
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Kind of amazing sometimes what we learn when we want to.
I remember husbandry classes in Ag during high school,thinking both there and in geometry, "I will NEVER need to know this crap!" Now as a construction guy I use geometery every day as well as the long lost husbandry skills with my pigeons.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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JMUrbon
200 posts
Jan 15, 2007
5:10 PM
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Scotts post is dead on the money Dave ( Bluesman). You consistantly look for the negative in his posts but that post was rite on the money. As far as good birds today compared to 50 years ago I will tell you that you need to get out. There are far more successful lofts these days. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard somebody tell me they are using so many pairs just for the bodies to feed the hawk. That is not only imoral but it is not getting them any further along in their breeding program than before they started.a large Quantity of junk is still going to be junk. If you are going to breed for quantity over quality you will loose every time. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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motherlodelofts
1303 posts
Jan 15, 2007
5:55 PM
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Joe , he's breeding 40-60 percent good to excellent birds, he's way ahead of me thats for sure .
If I had percentages like that of what I consider good to excellent I would be unbeatable , go figure.
Scott
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centralvalleylofts
59 posts
Jan 15, 2007
6:07 PM
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scott and dave great comments i just hope that others follow along.the more flyers concentrate on certain birds
the better the hobby will be instead of this wishy washy
kits we see now.dont get me wrong there are better birds now then 15 years ago and is thanks to the communication era' we are living in.info is key fellas and the more we
know the better we will do.but again you have guys that cannot leave their old ways due to the fact that they are
just pigeon breeders.and not roller breeders.you all know who im talking about the flyer we love and know he has perphaps 3 to 5 different famalies. and cant do with out either. because of sentimental value. and their is nothing wrong with it because along the way we all got birds from this guys. but to further your goal like scott said find what works for you and just stick with it and you will go
a longer way than with multiple famalies. just my two cents. steve
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1064 posts
Jan 15, 2007
8:01 PM
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Wow! I must just be a pigeon breeder and not a roller breeder. Amazing.
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kcfirl
34 posts
Jan 16, 2007
7:40 AM
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Guys,
I think both Scott and McCormick are using successful systems. There isn;t just one way to breed great rollers. Pensom's superstars, teh birds that went on to found great families were from parents from different lines.
If a guy wants to breed as few birds as possible, and have the highest quality kits, he needs to go with a tight family. This reduces the vasriability in what;s produced. The normal population curve tightens up and the peak becomes more pronounced. Heine Bijker, Ken Billings, Scott Campbell use this system successfully.
If a guy has lots of time on his hands and can breed 200 or more birds and truly fly out 10 kits a year, then selecting outstanding birds in the air from 2-3 families may produce ultimately better rollers, but in lower percentages. The 2-3 families must be ones that are proven to cross well and give good F1 performers. The normal population curve flattens out so you get more diversity but you also get longer tails from which the truly outstanding specimens such as 514 come from. Pensom used this method. Guys like Joe Bob Stuka, Brian McCormick, Tim Decker, and others use this method successfully.
If you look at the top 10 guys in the world based on competition, I would say 80% are using the tight family method. This makes sense since time and energy devoted to pigeons is limited.
The outcross method is a tougher road to hoe and requires more time and effort but I believe will be the method that produces the few, very exceptional, raise the bar kind of birds that completley new families come out of. Chan Grover esposes this method as well.
Of course, you're wlecome to just ignore me and toss this in the trash especially when you consider the source.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Velo99
865 posts
Jan 16, 2007
2:36 PM
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I have my A team down to four families now. I now have those four same producing pairs in the breeder loft. So far so good. This season I am gonna see if I can produce more of the same.I have swithched two pairs around to see if they work out and will do the others later in the season. This way I will have some 06`s to breed back next season if they pan out. The anticipation is killing me. lol
Today was kinda significant in the fact that have been looking for the final few members of the 22 bird A team. After what saw today I think they are there. One of those where is the judge days. Been in for almost a week. Looked a bit rough yesterday but came out smokin today. Now if they hold it together for the next 8 months I will be on course. If not I will be culling a lot of birds.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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smoke747
675 posts
Jan 29, 2008
9:10 AM
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here is a post that might help out on inbreeding/linebreeding
smoke747
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