|
The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Breeding?/type/Brother to sister mating
Breeding?/type/Brother to sister mating
Page:
1
chachi
24 posts
Jan 18, 2007
10:20 PM
|
Hello All, standing in the loft daydreaming looking at the squeeks in the bowls and the squeeks on the perch. Really got a few with the type I was looking for in the Masons I have. Have not flown due to hawks. Not sure where I read it, I read posts randomly all hours of the day and night, couldn't find it again if I tried. I think it might have been Paul(forgive me Paul if it was not) wrote that to further isolate genes quicker/isolate faults that it would be better to mate brother to sister? I can see that in the breeding of my best pair that I would want to take the best female hen back to the father and the cock back to the mother, but if the nestmates or full brother and sister birds both worked out to be good spinners and both of type that I want, why wpould I digress by moving back to the mother or father however slightly back toward what I want to constanly improve upon? In my reading and what little fly time I have, I believe to deny type in striving for the perfect roll would be not too bright. What came first the chicken or the egg? What should come first the type or the roll(trying to fingd the medium). I honestly could care less what color a bird comes out to be, but type to me seems haunting. Somewhere I also read that in Pensom's book on page 62, the hen I believe it is, was Pensom's iddea of the perfect type. This type is what I dream of in my sleep. A loft full of birds that look like this. It only makes sense that to me that a bird that is rounded vice long casted would naturally ball up, going with the thought that a long cast bird can ball up, but through a long spin it would naturally lose tightness faster than a bird that carries a shorter frame, stronger back carrying a high tail. So the question is two parts, if I bred two birds that are "like that bird on pg 62" correct in type in my mind, what experience do any of you have that says a full broher and sister whether nestmates or round two or three would not be good? If scientifically you strive to produce a bird,like in Kowalski's writing, better designed for roll would you not take the quickest route to get there?
|
J_Star
766 posts
Jan 19, 2007
4:49 AM
|
Chachi,
No one will answer your question and give you a satisfied comprehensive answer in couple of sentences without really knowing your setup and the family you have. Therefore, read the articles about inbreeding and line breeding in the all matrix tab to your left. Read them a few times over and try to digest them and you will get your answer and more. Thanks.
Jay
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1025 posts
Jan 19, 2007
5:57 AM
|
I would breed for:
1: Roll
2: Velocity
3: Depth
4: Control
5: Type
In the order listed above. While there are exceptions, a bird with proper type has a better chance to roll correctly.
If 1-4 are happening properly, #5 is probably already a strong trait within the family.
There are exceptions to this of course, I believe Pensom said any type can roll well, some just have to work at it harder to make it look good. In other words, they are working harder to overcome imbalance within thier type.
I have built my Ruby Roller family around 1 exceptional cock: 903. I have bred him to daughters, granddaughters...
I have kept and bred from the offspring that showed me the goods, until I got a preponderance of the 5 traits (and more) that I bred for.
To simplify things, breed best to best within the context of these 5 Primary Traits. Good luck!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2007 6:31 AM
|
motherlodelofts
1308 posts
Jan 19, 2007
8:27 AM
|
Chaci ,
It takes a while to figure out your birds, and until you do it's hard to figure out a direction , as for type , you have to let the birds show you what it is and learn from it.
Myself, I like a little cast, but it is in the feather more than anything else.
But I don't like them to long or to coby either, you have to be careful about what you read in some of these books, fact is most of those that have written books only promotion of them or the thier birds came from them writing the books , most would be no names without the books and there is a reason for it.
As for inbreeding , you "MUST" inbreed for the right purpose ,my breeding is to make more of the same good one's in greater numbers, not to breed better performers than the parents grandparents ect. I want them "exactly" the same as what I'm breeding out of , otherwise what I am breeding of isn't worth breeding out of.
I run 'two" line's of birds , one line goes back to two cocks and one hen (foundation), one cock is off a full bro/sis mating , the other is off the same mating on the topside and a futher distance linbred on the bottom , the hen is related futher back up and would be considered linebred , close , but not extreamly close at.
The other line goes back to a full bro/sis plus another closely related cock (linebred)
The loft is filled with the prodigy of these two line's that were started out of these three birds in each line.
Why "these" birds has to be the big question, it's simple, these birds give me everything that I want in a Birmingham Roller in decent to good percentages , and I burned through alot of birds to find these ,in short these birds worked and it took quite a few years to proove these as being "the" one's.
Both of these line's tie in up above so are distant linebred from each other , if any line needs fresh blood it is already in the loft, but there is a lot of gene pool in these birds.
I'm not trying to "fix" anything or cover up faults , my sole purpose is to breed more just like them , period.
I will breed full/bro/sis , father/ daughter , aunt /uncle ect. ect. linebred or inbred makes no difference to me, but I do tend to lean towards tight line breeding and I breed within the line.
The only thing that determines the mating is to balance out the pair with each other.
Inbreeding/linebreeding roadmaps "DO NOT" work for me , if I used such methods I would be breeding for the roadmap which my not be the best mating, there are just to many factors involved when determining pairings , a bird my be put on it's full sibling or on it's grandchild , it doesn't matter , the full Sibling route is the best way to "test" the line though.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2007 8:38 AM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1026 posts
Jan 19, 2007
9:13 AM
|
Hehehe, yeah Chachi, first make sure your birds roll and figure out if you want them to continue to roll, then try to make sure they roll with velocity and figure out if you want them to continue to roll with velocity, then make sure they have some depth, then figure out if you want them to continue to roll with velocity and depth, then make sure your birds have control and don't bounce all over the yard, then figure out if you want them to continue to roll with velocity and depth and have control...hehehe
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Alohazona
229 posts
Jan 19, 2007
9:14 AM
|
Scott,
A very good post,well understood.This is the information I need,at the point I am at right now with my breeding choices.Thank again for your knowlagable expertise...Aloha,Todd
Tony,
I am getting some very nice spinners with your Ruby line.I haven't worked them as hard as my other familys,because of space for breeding.I now have some birds to start circling around.Any tips would be appreciated.Mahalo and Aloha,Todd
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1027 posts
Jan 19, 2007
9:15 AM
|
hehehe, I almost forgot, Pensom wrote a book and I heard he sells birds too, watchout! hehehe
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1028 posts
Jan 19, 2007
10:00 AM
|
Hey Todd, in general the Ash-Red spreads will come into the roll hot and early (gotta watch them and feed them a little more), the Blues tend to come in later and are more stable. The Red Checks are about in the middle.
I use a regular pigeon pop (mixed grains) to train and condition them. When I want to see more intense performance I use wheat. But overall, I use mixed grains for the kitbirds and general flying and maintenance.
This family likes overcast days, especially when there is alot of moisture in the air. They will bust in larger breaks with more frequency. Of course they need to be properly conditioned and managed.
I will breed an Ash-Red Spread cock to a Blue or Red Check hen, I breed 2 Ash-red Spreads together and get some really hot young birds that develop early.
My cock birds that carry the Blue will be Red Checked with black ticking or show a smokey? lavendar with heavy black ticking. What I don't see is Blue Bar or Dark Check in the males carrying Blue.
I use color (as it seems to relate to roll development and stability in my family) to "balance" my birds. Todd, I hope some of this helps.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
chachi
25 posts
Jan 19, 2007
4:09 PM
|
Hey Scott and Tony, Thanks for your input. It is info like that which makes me believe I am on track mentally. J Star, I understand where you are coming from also. I have made quite a few mistakes just in my set up alone over the past few years let alone putting birds together. I feel I have pretty much got my loft management together. I don't know about you guys, but I thought if I had a loft with perches, some food, and water it should be a snap. Not quite that easy, it's good stress though :). Scott, I 'm tracking on what you said about starting with birds that meet all your expectations. I will be working with working with two families this coming year. My primary family will be 3 Masons that I have been able to fly that spin pretty fast and tight. Also two cocks and 1 hen (hen is daughter of one of the cocks). The other cock came from the same family/ loft in 2003. Not deep or very frequent, but when they did it was pretty sweet. I think it has to do with the feed I gave them. I didn't go heavy on wheat because I was always afraid of them smacking down. I tried playing with wheat for a while and a few hit like bricks! They shook when I fed them they got so hyped! I will be playing with the feed this coming year. They're in forever lock down to keep the blood. I had my hands full just getting the few birds I had in the air, keeping them there, then getting them to trap back in. It's pretty gut wrenching when all you have can be gone in the blink of an eye. Don't have to tell you guys I'm sure. I've got 35 birds in the loft now. Getting pretty excited about pumpnig out a full kit by the summer off the birds I intend to breed/ foster. If these squeeks I have now pan out, I might be making leaps and bounds next spring. Who ever wrote in here one time it takes about 5 years from start up was right, 'cause I'm about there now. The one thing I am certain of is I can house birds, breed and get birds in the air/back. This year and next I am looking forward to seeing if can duplicate or better what I have, which shouldn't be hard considering I started a few years ago pretty damn clueless! Yep, stupidity, hawks, trees, wind, you name it I have lost birds too it. feeling pretty positve though and got a pretty good idea where i need to go. Thanks all.
|
Post a Message
|
|
|