rollerman132
52 posts
Jan 19, 2007
6:22 PM
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What is the best indicator of velocity, the hole or the blur?
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longarm
39 posts
Jan 19, 2007
6:26 PM
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The hole is very hard to get an angle on. If your bird blurs out I wouldnt waste the time looking for the hole. LOL c.j.
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knaylor
434 posts
Jan 19, 2007
6:41 PM
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I would say that the blur would be faster. Now to show the hole you would have to basically have perfect balance during the roll, and be in the right angle to even see it. Now how many have actually seen the hole?? I would bet not too many. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
1309 posts
Jan 19, 2007
6:50 PM
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I think that "most" birds that appear to "blur" out do so due to the combination of speed and off balance , in other words speed tends to cover faults.
Myself I will take balance over speed , I find that balance give's the appearance of speed due to it's so fluid , I find it also very difficult to breed.
Put speed and balance together and you really have something.
As for the hole, it is a combination of the right type and balance.
Scott
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nicksiders
1234 posts
Jan 19, 2007
6:55 PM
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Sometimes bad wing position will give the appearance of high velocity or a blur.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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tapp
170 posts
Jan 19, 2007
7:02 PM
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If I want to see the Blurr in my birds I just take off my glasses, and they all are rolling the blurr! No hole ever. Just joking around guys!
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Tapp
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rollerman132
54 posts
Jan 19, 2007
7:13 PM
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I’ve seen the hole, but yet to see a bird blur out. Could faults in the roll be missed if the bird blurred out, like wing changing?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1031 posts
Jan 19, 2007
7:45 PM
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"What is the best indicator of velocity, the hole or the blur?"
There is no hole. Only the illusion of one. You have reached proper velocity when you can't count the number of rotations and then when the bird looks like a ball coming straight down.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1076 posts
Jan 19, 2007
9:46 PM
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I've seen both the blur and the hole. I think's scotts analogy is pretty accurate, but in my opinion it should be clarified that while speed to the point of blurring CAN hide faults (not wingswitching type faults, but rather wing position, etc), it isn't inclusive to mean that ALL birds which blur out are masking a fault. I've seen some rollers show the hole quite frequently, but weren't really all that fast, they were just balanced right and rolling smoothly. I've only raised one bird that truly, on most days, would roll with blur type speed and most of the time if seen from the side, would show a quarter-sized hole. She was black so it was rather easy to see when at the right angle.
I raised a blue check hen I sent to Milo that was justifiably named The Blurr hen. She would turn into a true blurred ball, but never showed any hole.
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MILO
119 posts
Jan 20, 2007
12:22 AM
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To add to what Brian has said, that hen is the only foreign bloodline that I have kept on the property (with the exception of her uncle) because she has produced the same as what Brian has described. They tend to be on the stiffer side, but when I got a good one, they can literally blurr out. The fastest birds can blur out, but slower velocity birds can show a hole as good as the fast ones. So...it's a tough call. If I had to pick....I prefer the blurs. If you can see a hole on a blur...it just isn't a blur...LOL
c
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1077 posts
Jan 20, 2007
7:01 AM
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Ah, but what about a blurry hole? eh? Maybe that sounds too much like a a drunk looking for companionship?
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Velo99
870 posts
Jan 20, 2007
8:20 AM
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Guys,
I have seen the hole and have one bird that blurs. He is a short roller,15 footer,but still young,probably nine ten months.I don`t recall seeing the hole on this bird,and I have seen him from several different angles. He usually is balled up pretty tight in a H pattern.
I agree the hole is usually an indication of a nice smooth roll regardless of speed,within reason.
BTW Brian, good one bro.
jmho
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2007 8:24 AM
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motherlodelofts
1312 posts
Jan 20, 2007
11:02 AM
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If the balance is right you will "always" see the wing position when under them regardless of the speed, and the wings will show as straight line's , if the balance isnt there and the speed is the wings will blur out when the bird is on form , when off form the qaulity is shit.
I don't need to make excuses for speed as I have birds that click speed wise with the fastest of them when they are on.
In my eye though the bird with proper balance is a far superior bird and blazing speed becomes a non issue, combine this type of bird with speed and "Shazam" now were nearing the ultimate.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2007 11:03 AM
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rollerman132
56 posts
Jan 20, 2007
11:32 AM
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Now what about the hole, I’ve read and heard that the smaller the hole the faster the bird is there any truth to this. By producing birds of blur speed, have we have surpassed the speed of original Pensoms?
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motherlodelofts
1313 posts
Jan 20, 2007
12:42 PM
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"By producing birds of blur speed, have we have surpassed the speed of original Pensoms? "
Not hardly Rollerman, if that was the case the air would be filled with such birds rolling with the true hole.
To be honest I have only seen the true hole once on one particular bird , and it was at a guys named Tommy Brower whose birds I saw fly on a regular basis.
If it wasn't for that one time I wouldn't even know what it is even though I have had people at my own house exclaim " that bird showed the hole" my only thought is "that aint it" .
I seriously doubt that such birds were ever all that common , as they were considered first class , and if I ever do breed one with the right type and perfect balance to show what I saw that one time on that particular bird I would surely try to hone around it with the hope of making more, I think that it would be difficult to make them in any numbers though.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2007 12:43 PM
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nicksiders
1240 posts
Jan 20, 2007
1:24 PM
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I had one bird show the hole and the bad part of it I could not following long enough to know what bird it actually was. A lot of my birds are red check with flight markings so I could not tell you what bird it actually was. I think to see the hole is somewhat just luck. Being in the right angle; be observing the right bird at the right moment and so forth. It may be that there are more birds performing it then we expect.
What are we looking for anyway? Concert performance of 20' or more or the "hole"? To be honest I am not looking for the "hole". There are a lot of more important things that I am looking for. I wasn't looking for it when I saw it....it happen without any encouragement and I didn't write it down anywhere as a historical moment. I have other things that I am trying to encourage that are much more important.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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MILO
123 posts
Jan 20, 2007
7:09 PM
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Nick.
I'm not sure if I follow you here. Would you like a concert performance of 20 shitty sloppy rollers? You have to raise the bar man. Birds that can roll will blazing speed, the highest quality, or BOTH should be prized. I see so much crap out there, that to say these factors are not important, or shouldn't be a goal, is missing the mark when it comes to breeding better rollers. Getting birds to roll simultaneously is as hard as falling asleep in my opinion.
c
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nicksiders
1241 posts
Jan 20, 2007
7:56 PM
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Milo,
Velocity will keep them out of the cull box; i just don't spend a lot of time looking for solo performers. I want them to go up together; roll together; and come down together. Having good form; velocity; a strong desire to kit; and frequency (no stiffs) keeps them out of the cull box. Performing on thier own will put them IN the cull box. When they roll I want them spinning tight. I am not looking for the hole and I am not exited when I happen to see one.
I don't know how much higher you want me to raise the bar....
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2007 8:01 PM
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parlorfancier916
232 posts
Jan 20, 2007
7:59 PM
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I don't think whole should be a good definition maybe a wheel like fashion like a wheel on a car maybe...
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JMHD
93 posts
Jan 20, 2007
8:14 PM
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Parlor the reason they say to see the hole means when the bird breaks into a spin you see an optical illusion pretty much at the center of the bird. John M.(HDRC)So,Cal.
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MILO
124 posts
Jan 20, 2007
8:51 PM
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The things you are talking about are the basics. And I mean BASICS. Take a closer look at your stars.
c
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W@yne
202 posts
Jan 21, 2007
12:04 AM
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Guys i have seen the hole in rollers many times the hole is an illusion of the birds quality and speed once into a roll, The bird has to be side on and at the right angle when watched.I dont just look for the hole in the bird i look for the total package that is more important than just the hole.
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2007 1:31 AM
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3757
99 posts
Jan 21, 2007
6:24 AM
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Brian and Scott your analogies and descriptions were superb! To answer the second question as to have we surpassed the original Pensom's? Yes and no. The no answer is that a true spinner then would be a true spinner today. Have we surpassed the description below? I think that it still stands after 120 years. The yes answer is due to the fact that we have statistically more individuals breeding and flying rollers today than ever before and therefore will have a higher number of birds that perform to the standard. Lastly, if you are seeing a blur the bird is obscured. You can have a superb spinner that appears to stand still while spinning and show the hole. These pigeons were rare then as they are today and are the ones I prefer if they could be bred in abundance.
(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."
blur /bl?r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, blurred, blur•ring, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to obscure or sully (something) by smearing or with a smeary substance: The windows were blurred with soot.
2. to obscure by making confused in form or outline; make indistinct: The fog blurred the outline of the car.
3. to dim the perception or susceptibility of; make dull or insensible: The blow on the head blurred his senses.
–verb (used without object) 4. to become indistinct: Everything blurred as she ran.
5. to make blurs.
–noun 6. a smudge or smear that obscures: a blur of smoke.
7. a blurred condition; indistinctness: They could see nothing in the foggy blur.
8. something seen indistinctly: The ship appeared as a blur against the horizon
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:52 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
107 posts
Jan 21, 2007
3:51 PM
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Hey guys, I see the hole on a daily basis...... Everytime I look into my wallet! Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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quickspin
447 posts
Mar 14, 2008
2:36 PM
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LOL, I see the same hole every day also.
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SALAS LOFT
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Oldfart
528 posts
Mar 14, 2008
3:19 PM
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A croqet ball, and depth is abligatory, twenty to forty foot, deep enough to be able to evaluate, but not so deep that I am wrapped up in the thrill and lose sight of the obvious. Hole (VS) blur, I don't know, I just can't see that close, I'm an oldfart!
Thom
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kopetsa
381 posts
Mar 14, 2008
3:23 PM
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I'm lost
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Andrew
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j .wanless
12 posts
Mar 14, 2008
3:39 PM
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its the blur every time years ago i had birds you would see the hole every time i flew them.some had a smallish hole & others slightly larger.the ones with the smaller were obviously rolling tighter.now we only look for the blur.like i said before its called evaloution every thing gets faster except me as im getting old lol.me & george mason have talked about this many times todays birds are much faster than the old days& george knows h/es old.
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sippi
124 posts
Mar 14, 2008
4:01 PM
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I am finally glad to see a lot havent seen the hole besides me. Down here in the flatwoods I dont think we will ever get the angle to see the hole. I have seen the blur and will take a kit of them anyday whether they have faults or not. Cause if you cant see it niether can the judge.
Sippi
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rollerman132
256 posts
Mar 14, 2008
6:14 PM
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I personally don’t think a bird that had faults could roll at that velocity.
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DeepSpinLofts
411 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:15 PM
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I've been involved with rolling pigeons since I was 10 years old and now I am 42.
...and
From my years of observations watching rolling pigeons in the air, the blur in my opinion is much more of a quality spin than a bird displaying the hole.
In many cases a high velocity rolling pigeon is spinning so fast in the air that it looks as though the bird isn't dropping much. You don't see wings flapping wildly or feathers flying all over the place.... what you see is a tight gyrating spherical ball of super pigeon energy (a blur) whirling downward in space towards earth.
Hmm.....
It's like the bird is TRAPPED in SPACE and TIME like a BLACK HOLE.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 6:18 AM
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Donny James
320 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:37 PM
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i have to agree with scott answer..............donny james
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elopez
790 posts
Mar 14, 2008
7:59 PM
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I would love to have some Blurs in my kit.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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ezeedad
366 posts
Mar 14, 2008
8:53 PM
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I think that the hole is more a matter of style than velocity. I have seen birds showing a clear hole that weren't particularly fast, while others showing the hole can be blazing fast... But I believe that for the ultimate in velocity something has to be sacrificed in the style of the roller. The fastest that I've seen roll like a ball..sort of spinning like a top. Or in some cases they may accelerate and "shrink" at the same time, and the hole if it is present will close up and disappear as the bird speeds up.
Paul G
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
472 posts
Mar 15, 2008
6:33 AM
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Hi Paul,hope it's all good with you. Well said of good observation.
Speed/velocity is a main focus,, and with style,, having one without the other is second and third rate birds.
R-LUNA
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ezeedad
368 posts
Mar 15, 2008
12:03 PM
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Hey Richard,
How's it going...!!? Hope everythings good out there in the desert. Good luck with it all..
Paul
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DeepSpinLofts
415 posts
Mar 15, 2008
10:17 PM
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Paul G conveys my thoughts quite clearly when he says:
===> "they may accelerate and "shrink" at the same time, and the hole if it is present will close up and disappear as the bird speeds up."
....so
Allow me to reiterate:
===> It's like the bird is TRAPPED in SPACE and TIME like a BLACK HOLE.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2008 10:18 PM
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Scott
247 posts
Mar 16, 2008
9:01 AM
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"If" I had my rathers it would be a true hole Roller , true being the key word, but it aint about the just seeing the hole though it is about ultimate balance and style that it takes to see it in the first place.
Just pure speed is much much easier to breed as long as it is there to begin with.
I probably should add that my birds "don't" roll with the hole and the best are as fast as any, but my goal in the breeding loft is balance and style.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pacos bill
37 posts
Mar 16, 2008
12:29 PM
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Tony said it lake a ball. If I can distinguish wing tips in the spin they are to slow.
PS THAT’S IF WE EVER GET OFF LOCK DOWN
PACOS BILL
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Scott
252 posts
Mar 16, 2008
1:05 PM
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(If I can distinguish wing tips in the spin they are to slow.)
With "my" best birds it is called balance, and no amount of speed can hide it
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Steve S.
98 posts
Mar 08, 2009
4:26 PM
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In 1981 Joe Roe raised a cock 4611-81 and that was
the first time I ever heard of the term blur.
The cock bred many blurs.
I raised from a hen Joe called the blur hen. 0111-94
from him and she seemed she could roll tru a drain pipe as she tightened up as she spinned.
From that line I also saw some hole rollers.
They have to be fast enough and with the right flexability in the back muscles and tail placement
to see it from the side.
This is not an illusion but a certain type roller that spins properly,fast and correct body.
Steve
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juanrollers
270 posts
Mar 08, 2009
10:29 PM
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Could it be that the spinner that shows the donut hole is actually spinning so fast that it appears to be going slow? Kind of like a blade on a helicopter.
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DeepSpinLofts
1209 posts
Mar 09, 2009
6:19 AM
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The blurry hole is one that befuddles me.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Mount Airy Lofts
874 posts
Mar 09, 2009
7:25 AM
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Blur
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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Flipmode
361 posts
Mar 10, 2009
6:42 PM
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Plain and simple. The Blur is the best indicator of velocity. If you flip a bycicle upside down and turn the wheel, you can still see the spokes turning. Now crank that pedel hard a few times and what do you see? A Blurrrrrr. Same wheel, Not off ballance! Just alot more speed!
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