MCCORMICKLOFTS
1084 posts
Jan 22, 2007
9:04 PM
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Here's a couple of squeeks that will surely confuse some of you...lol. These are super dark spread ash reds which most roller guys would call Duns, but they aren't Duns though they are about as close to looking like real Dun as you can expect to see. I get a few dunnish colored spread ash reds a year, but never any this dark.
BMC
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nicksiders
1255 posts
Jan 22, 2007
10:12 PM
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I would be one of those guys to call them duns
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Snicker Rollers
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birdman
297 posts
Jan 22, 2007
10:13 PM
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Nick, too much down to be a true dun.
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bernie
8 posts
Jan 23, 2007
6:44 AM
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Good Morning! Very interesting indeed - a knee jerk reaction on my part would call them spread brown (spread chocolate).
Were they normally downed when hatched or were they practically naked?
Could you please tell us what the parents were?
Thanks for the intrigue.
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diamondrollers
37 posts
Jan 23, 2007
2:51 PM
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center>
almost the same i would call it ash red
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1085 posts
Jan 23, 2007
8:57 PM
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Bernie, they were normal downed as all my rollers are as I don't have brown or dilute in them. The parents were a black w/f cock and a red check hen, both carrying recessive red.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
983 posts
Jan 24, 2007
3:47 AM
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Brian. Very interesting. I too would have thought Brown.But I have several that carry Brown in my family that I know of and some I don't know.Maybe some I am thinking are Brown isn't.LOL
If its not to much trouble would you keep us up to date as they get older.I would like to see what they look like after they mature.David
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bernie
9 posts
Jan 24, 2007
1:35 PM
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Greetings!
If the young were normally downed, then they are not duns.
I would bet my bottom dollar that they are recessive reds for the following reason: you had mentioned that both parents carry recessive red. Recessive red acts as a sweater in the sense that it "covers up" the underlying color. Different strains of recessive reds do a better job of covering up the underlying color (whether it be black or ash red)than other strains. Another hint is the fact that the color extends to the tips of the tail feathers as well as the flight feathers.
But damn...they do look like chocolates (brown) - but you swore that your stock does not carry brown factors..LOL
Above all else - keep'em flying!!
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KrisB
4 posts
Jan 24, 2007
3:23 PM
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Hi all,
I noticed this photo up here, and the info with it on the color of these birds. I'm really still learning about color and it can get confusing sometimes.
I have a squeaker the same color as this (but it also has white flights, white tail, and a white "beard")... I wasn't sure exactly what color it was; it looks greyish just like this photo... not really Black like mother.
I thought it might be a Dun... or Brown??? It hatched with down and has the same little yellow bits of down left on its head (not as much as these youngsters; mine is older than these).
These are the notes I have on the parents and grandparents;
mother is a Black with white flights/tail/spot on rump
gr. sire: Black Grizzle
gr.dam: Brown Check
father is a Deroy with white flights/tail ("Deroy" I was told is a Recessive Red Almond)
gr. sire: Recessive Red Opal (carrying Dilute, and Pencil)
gr. dam: Spread Almond (carrying Recessive Red)
I was wondering if mine isn't the same color as you are saying here??
Thanks...
Kris
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1087 posts
Jan 24, 2007
9:59 PM
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Kris, the squeekers above are spread ash red expressing dirty (black feet), sooty, probably smokey and most assuredly kite bronze. They are neither Dun nor Brown.
The description of your bird would be difficult to analzye simply because there a host of "possibilities" and without a picture, we would simply be guessing at best.
The mother is what she is, a spread blue (black) also expressing the pie bald gene for w/f and tail. Brown is eliminated by her sex.
The father could be a host of things that only breeding to a pure blue bar could disclose over time.
Yes, a Deroy is a recessive red almond and based upon your description of its parents it very well could be. The Recessive red opal father had a 50/50 chance of passing on the dilute gene to the Deroy son (father to your young bird in question). If this pair has not to date produced any recessive reds, you can safely rule out that the mother carried recessive red, hence you won't get any. Opal throws another odd equation into the mix as sometimes it can be expressed without being visibly identifiable on some birds. For the sake of conversation, there is a remote possibility your Deroy cock bird was also expressing opal (I assume Od since recessive opal is quite rare in rollers). With all these "assumptions" and without seeing the bird, my guess would be it could be either a dun(which would make it a hen) or a spread blue opal also expressing kite bronze. Take this with a grain of salt because we can't see the bird, nor know with any certainty what other factors are involved since the recent background includes a large degree of variables.
Brian.
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KrisB
5 posts
Jan 25, 2007
11:32 AM
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Thanks Brian, for the reply. Yeah, I would have guessed it... it's all sorts of complicated, isn't it? LOL!! That's OK, though. I like this sort of thing (genetics); keeps the brain cells from going to mush, that's for sure!
I forgot about the possible Opal affect (from the background of the father, the Deroy). I remember that it is supposed to "lighten" or "whiten" the bars... is this right? Does it have any other effects?? I will look more closely at the Deroy to see if I can see anything else.
So Brown is eliminated (because the hen does not carry it, neither does the cock).
Dun, though... I was under the impression Duns were born with no down (being Dilute of Black). This squeaker was hatched with down.
I will look more closely at this youngster again; I could have sworn I can see the faintest bars... almost not there, but they are darker, not lighter, than the body color.
I have only had this pair for a short time; they are only on their second round of eggs (hopefully will hatch this weekend). So no Recessive Red offspring (yet??)
I very much like this "dun-colored" squeaker... it is the only youngster I got of any other color but "white almonds" (out of 6 young)...thus I wanted to figure out what color it is. The nestmate to this "dun-colored" one is a "white almond" also, but has faint red lacing on many of its juvenile feathers.
I'll be awhile before I can get to posting pics... so I'll just go with what you are describing (with the "assumptions")
Thanks again... I appreciate it!
Kris
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1090 posts
Jan 25, 2007
1:25 PM
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I forgot about the possible Opal affect (from the background of the father, the Deroy). I remember that it is supposed to "lighten" or "whiten" the bars... is this right? Does it have any other effects?? I will look more closely at the Deroy to see if I can see anything else.
KRIS, OPAL OVERALL HAS A LIGHTENING EFFECT ON PATTERNS AND BASE COLORS BUT CAN RANGE FROM EXTREME WHITENING TO NO VISIBLE TRACE OF OPAL BEING PRESENT. THIS IS ONE REASON I LOATH OPAL IN MY SHOW BIRDS.
So Brown is eliminated (because the hen does not carry it, neither does the cock).
THE HEN CANNOT CARRY A COLOR, HER COLOR IS WHAT SHE IS EXCLUDING RECESSIVES WHICH ARE NOT SEX LINKED. SINCE SHE IS NOT A BROWN, AND BASED ON YOUR INFORMATION OF THE COCK BIRD, HE DOESN'T CARRY BROWN, YOU WILL GET NO BROWNS.
Dun, though... I was under the impression Duns were born with no down (being Dilute of Black). This squeaker was hatched with down.
YES, DILUTES ARE HATCHED WITH NO OR VERY LITTLE DOWN. SINCE YOU SAID IT HAD DOWN, DILUTE COULD BE DISMISSED AS A POSSIBILITY.
I will look more closely at this youngster again; I could have sworn I can see the faintest bars... almost not there, but they are darker, not lighter, than the body color.
POST A PICTURE OF IT WHEN IT GROWS UP, SOUNDS LIKE IT COULD BE SOMETHING AS EASY AS AN EXTREMELY DIRTY HET SPREAD BLUE BAR WITH SOME KITE BRONZE OR EVEN HAVE SOME INDIGO IN THERE AS I HAVE READ OF SOME COLOR ROLLER GUYS CROSSING ALL KINDS OF ODD COMBINATIONS. DOES THE YOUNGSTER HAVE ANY COLORED TAIL FEATHERS?
I have only had this pair for a short time; they are only on their second round of eggs (hopefully will hatch this weekend). So no Recessive Red offspring (yet??)
THE DESCRIPTION OF YOUR YOUNGSTER ISN'T THE RESULT OF RECESSIVE RED, BUT IF YOU HAVE ONLY RAISED A COUPLE FROM THEM, THERE IS STILL A CHANCE THE HEN COULD CARRY RECESSIVE RED, ONLY TIME WILL TELL.
I very much like this "dun-colored" squeaker... it is the only youngster I got of any other color but "white almonds" (out of 6 young)...thus I wanted to figure out what color it is. The nestmate to this "dun-colored" one is a "white almond" also, but has faint red lacing on many of its juvenile feathers.
A WHITE ALMOND IN MOST CASES IS SIMPLY AN ALMOND CO-EXPRESSING THE SPREAD GENE AND IS GENERALLY VOID OF LARGE DOSES OF KITE BRONZE. THE FAINT RED LACING IN THE JUVENILE STATE IS GENERALLY AN INDICATOR THAT THE BIRD CARRIES RECESSIVE RED.
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DeepSpinLofts
779 posts
May 20, 2008
8:08 AM
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What happened to the pictures?
re: Super dark spread ash reds
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Built4Speed
209 posts
May 20, 2008
8:39 AM
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Would be interesting to see those Dun's. What happen to those pics?
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Dale
SGVS
http://builtforspeedrollerlofts.bravehost.com/
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ICEMAN710
337 posts
May 21, 2008
4:07 AM
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here you go dale, i dont know the image inserts so i cant post it, plus its Brians, so just copy and paste. Over dun!
http://www.pbase.com/bmc1/image/73435483
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Gary
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Fire_Baller_916
275 posts
May 21, 2008
7:50 AM
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Here's a pic of a Dun Cock in the back with his mate...But to me Dun should look like the bird at the bottom...LOL...
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Chai Seng
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JMUrbon
471 posts
May 21, 2008
1:03 PM
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The bird that you are showing there looks more to me like an Ash red spread. This is what I grew up calling a dun.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 1:04 PM
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Fire_Baller_916
277 posts
May 21, 2008
1:08 PM
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I was just told that it was a dun...LOL...but i agree with u Joe...
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Chai Seng
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quickspin
635 posts
May 21, 2008
1:50 PM
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SALAS LOFT
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