George Ruiz
172 posts
Jan 30, 2007
5:56 PM
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I think everyone has there own Personel Opinion about Crested Pigeons and Color pigeons.
For whatever it is worth I will let you all know that I will always believe that a cross was introduced to create a crest on a Birmingham Roller.
And I will always believe a cross was made to produce Opals, Andys, white bars, creams,indigos,ETC.
And I will always believe if you cross a bloodline no matter if its a Dog,Cat, Pigeon,.
It is no longer pure so it should be called a Cross, mix breed, Mongrel,Mutt,Etc.
If someone can please explain why my thinking is wrong please do so
Just my Opinion
George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 8:45 PM
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washington86
85 posts
Jan 30, 2007
6:00 PM
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i think you are absolutely right. Same like dog..if they are mixed then they are mut..as for pigeon..i guess you can call it cross..its a good name for it..if it's not full breed..then its a cross or MUT...=)
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1105 posts
Jan 30, 2007
6:05 PM
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There is no reason that your opinion can't be right or wrong, it ends with simply being your opinion, just as if it were mine. While I might agree or disagree with your opinion, my final verdict of whether or not I would agree or disagree has zero bearing on whether or not your opinion is right or wrong. It is simply just an opinion.
If you want my personal opinion, my opinion is that sure there have been crosses made for color, etc over the years. I don't see that as a crime against the breed because I am pretty much anti-breed police and pro-performance. You are more than welcome to agree or disagree, but it won't change my opinion.
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Missouri-Flyer
154 posts
Jan 30, 2007
6:07 PM
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LMAO @ Brian....Thats the looonnngggggg version of "i could care less what you think of my opinion".
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Alohazona
231 posts
Jan 30, 2007
6:29 PM
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George,
Even though like breeds like in nature.There is a part of nature that opposites attract.Having said that,I am not aware of a written standard for Birmingham roller pigeons.More likely than not, that standard would have to be supported by the largest club that breeds them to the standard that is trying to be adopted" as THE standard".Until then,every one will have their own personal opinion.Your neither wrong or right,or anywhere in the middle for that matter.There is no written standard that excludes crests or rare colors,lettuce is lettuce....Aloha,Todd
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1047 posts
Jan 30, 2007
7:16 PM
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If everyone has their own "truth", is there ever a lie?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Frankie
45 posts
Jan 30, 2007
7:52 PM
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so does that mean that all dogs, cats, and pigeons are cross breeds becasue they all have been crossed at some time in the development of the breeds i am new at rollers but didn't birminghams come from a crosss of different tumblers crossed along time ago and if that is the case then what we call pures where crossbreeds to start with just a thought Frankie
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belle
136 posts
Jan 30, 2007
8:09 PM
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Jerry is right I could care less what you think about pure or mix muff, crest, opals, andys, pink or purple, if I cared about pure like you do how is that different than a color breeder isn't the roll that matters? I have Turners what you would call color birds but my birds can roll just as good or better than your "pure" birds but mine have good color. It's all in the air not the color of the bird.
Right on Frankie
Just my opinion
Justin
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 8:10 PM
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nicksiders
1303 posts
Jan 30, 2007
8:12 PM
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No problem here, George.
I wish that I could say I have pure Birmingham Rollers. They look pure, but I have taken things on faith from those breeders who I got the birds from. But, now and then doubt creeps into my mind. It depends who I am talking to who has had an experience with the breeder(s) I have obtained my birds from.
There are times I want to search for another source and start all over again.......go to the UK for birds or something(LOL). I don't know.
There is a lot of deciet going on in our roller world from all sides of the issue.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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George Ruiz
174 posts
Jan 30, 2007
8:38 PM
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Justin I hope I didnt offend you in any way .it was not my intention to offend anyone I was just posting my opinion.
by the way Justin you ever here that saying "The Truth Hurts"
George
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BR Rollers
79 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:02 PM
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No offence taken George. I learned a long time ago that Opinions are like assholes, Every has one! ...lol
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Ballrollers
643 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:03 PM
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Ahhhhh, those Brian McCormick words of wisdom...I don't think I can improve on that at all...I'll just acknowledge it as solid truth, and the most critical point of the discussion.......of ANY discussion....and "ditto" it....But maybe I'll just add......"and therefore NONE of us has any right to damn, criticize, invalidate or sit in judgement of another roller man, or his family of birds, strictly on the basis that his opinon is different from our own."
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 9:07 PM
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George Ruiz
175 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:17 PM
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Cliff I am not talking about Judgement,I am talking about the truth.
a apple is a apple a orange a orange get it,
If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck must be a Duck.
George
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 9:34 PM
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luis
147 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:25 PM
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I read this on another site and i must say i like it,i like it a lot!!
"Enjoy what you breed.......breed what you enjoy".
Don't overly concern yourselves with what others think.Whatever your purpose for breeding pigeons,follow that purpose and you will reach your own conclusions!
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George Ruiz
176 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:27 PM
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Frankie I believe you are very knowledgable about american pitbull terriers
can you tell me if the color blue has always been around like the brindles and red nose dogs
also where did blue pits come from ?
Frankie I have been breeding Pits for over 30 yrs
George
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 9:28 PM
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luis
148 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:38 PM
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I can't wait till i develop a kit of champion Qualmonds!!Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha......................................................................................................................................................................
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Frankie
47 posts
Jan 30, 2007
9:52 PM
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George, I couldn't tell you where blues came from or
how long ago. My first attempts to get into the blue and blue brindle bloodlines out of the Blue Bully bloodlines was so bad that I never bothered checking into it. Most
of my red nose we're out of the Colby bloodline and my brindle we're out of the Sierra bloodline. As far as
when and how long the brindles and red noses have been around or first come to be and how. I don't know... I
really wasn't worried about finding out, I was more concerned with breeding a better natured pit bull because they had a bad enough reputation and that's what I wanted to change. Frankie
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Frankie
48 posts
Jan 30, 2007
10:01 PM
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Justin, I would really like to see pictures of
some of your colored rollers and anybody else who
has colored rollers and no, I'm not knocking
standards colored rollers or saying I don't like
them but I've seen plenty of pictures of them. I'd
like to see some colored roller pictures. If
anybody has any please let me know at:
frank40@suddenlink.net
Thanks Frankie
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2007 10:10 PM
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belle
137 posts
Jan 31, 2007
6:58 AM
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offend me no I was just trying to make a point I don't care if my rollers are mix or pure it's the roll I'm looking for, I found a family of rollers I like, why have just reds and blues when I could have any color and still have the roll. Are my birds mix Turner said he mixed but do they still roll? You don't what to call them rollers then don't but just remember all breeds of pigeon came from a rock dove, and unless you can follow your rollers back to the first pair then how do you know yours are not mixed?
Muff
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 6:59 AM
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Huey
44 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:06 AM
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Tony I believe that one can be wrong without having told a lie. I believe a lie to be intentional deception. If I believe my opinion to be true and express it then have I lied? Are am I just wrong?
I don’t believe there many domestic animals including humans that are not crossbred. Cross breeding only becomes wrong if and when you lie about it. Maybe we should register our Rollers with the NBRC and do DNA on our breeders. Then only allow offspring of registered birds to compete.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1051 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:09 AM
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While everyone can HAVE an opinion, some opinions carry more wieght than others, for example:
Heart Issue: An experienced heart surgeon vs a general practitioner
How To Straighten Crooked Teeth: An experienced orthodontist vs a general dentist
Building a house: A licensed building contractor vs a handy man
So when it comes to taking advice on heart surgery, who's opinion would you take? When it comes to straightening your daughters teeth, who's opinion would you take? When it comes to building a new house, who's opinion would you take?
When it comes to rollers, who's opinion would you take?
Roller fancier: extensive experience as competitive flyer, judge and breeder vs a newbie
Just My Opinion. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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belle
138 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:49 AM
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I'm not saying my birds are pure. Maybe we should register our Rollers with the NBRC and do DNA on our breeders. Then only allow offspring of registered birds to compete. Your right we should.
I'm not saying I know more than a experience as competitive flyer or judge but why do you guys say a bird of color can't roll as good?
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Huey
45 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:55 AM
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I don’t have any experience in the competitive pigeon world. I do in showing Paso Finos and Quarter horses.
I have seen people get their Judging license and Judge shows that I would not let ride, train, or Judge a horse. I have seen Breeders that were into money more than horses and never even break or ride a horses that they raise. But sell them as the worlds greatest. I have seen competitors that really need help and I have seen some good newbies.
I guess I would have to make a judgement call on each individual. However there some Judges that are really honorable, knowledgeable and helpful. Some breeders and competitors the same way. I would definitely go to them for help over a Newbie.
Still a wrong opinion is a wrong opinion not necessarily a lie.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 7:56 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
158 posts
Jan 31, 2007
8:09 AM
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The word expert depends on the person with the experience. There are people in every walk of life and every profession that clearly thinks they are the smartest at whatever they know. The pigeon world is no different when it comes to some people have more knowledge than others. Sometimes, it is those same people, with all of that knowledge and experience, that forget the information they have learned that make them experts, therefore thinking that they are still the best and most knowledgeable. As stated, I have been around the training of hunting dogs and performance Quarter Horses most of my 36 years, and have been to many seminars where the instructor was "supposed" to be an expert, but in reality, I wouldnt let him feed or water my animals....So, with saying a lot of nothing there, I will just say that just because a person has raised rollers for 20 years, has been to many club meets, pigeon shows, flys,etc. doesnt make him the most knowledgeable...He may have his own agenda and ideas, and wants everyone else to believe and think the way he does, right or wrong..JMO...Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1052 posts
Jan 31, 2007
8:10 AM
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Hey Huey, the gist of what was said toward the top of this thread is that since everyone HAS an opinion AND it is JUST their opinion, and this is just my interpretation of it, is that they are not only entitled to it but that it carries as much wieght as anyone elses.
Truth is not an opinion and an opinion is not truth. Just My Opinion. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1053 posts
Jan 31, 2007
9:03 AM
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Hey Jerry, I understand where you are coming from. But it seems to me (and I could be wrong) you may be taking an anecdotal experience and applying it generally to all similar situations.
“…have been to many seminars where the instructor was "supposed" to be an expert, but in reality, I wouldn’t let him feed or water my animals....”
I too have been to seminars and everything the speaker said “rang true” to me. I have sat through Sunday morning sermons and wondered what possessed the pastor to think he could preach! Lol
In any case, people need to use common sense (which it has been said is “often in short supply”) and consider a persons experience, their agenda, results, etc, in considering how much weight to place on their opinion.
Not all opinions are created equal.
Just my opinion. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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belle
139 posts
Jan 31, 2007
9:37 AM
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Huey, there is no such thing as a wrong opinion or a right, a opinion is not a fact. Rollers are given a standard if they reach that standard then they can compete a Judge's job is to give there opinion of that standard if you don't like there opinion (and I have been there) then don't show. I have been to and in lots of horse shows where a judge has had friends in the show and favor one horse over the other.
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Missouri-Flyer
161 posts
Jan 31, 2007
9:59 AM
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Tony,
I could be, but looking, and reading from the outside, outside being limited experience, that for the most part there are very knowledgeable roller guys on this site. Not saying that they all know what they are talking about, but given "their" family of birds, their breeding situation, and their training, then they have tons of knowledge..I do not know enough about the history of th BR to be able to tell you 100% that a crest didnt come from a pure BR, I have my thought, and they will stay with me, as I have never given my opinion here about that debate, nor will I ever.....I have "colored" birds that perform, but is my idea of colored the same as everyones? probably not...I have posted pics of my birds to share, and have received positive feedback, but some may have negative thoughts about them, but didnt say, so when it comes down to it, I could care less if Stan has Crests "and yes I have visited his site", or if Scott believes that the crests dont belong in the lofts of the serious flying guys..It all comes down to....When we leave this planet for a better place, will be be bickering and having negative thoughts about others birds? I doubt it, and if so... then some need to let go....Jerry
P.S....I have learned and continue to learn from EVERYONE on this site, and I say thanks to you Tony for providing a place where someone like myself can come and watch,learn, and get a kick out of others "opinions"!
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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maxspin
71 posts
Jan 31, 2007
10:17 AM
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Justin,
Now you are getting to the heart of the issue. Performance is the key. There are a couple of opinionated breeders/fliers that claim that their "crested", "colored", ect. birds are just as good or better than the "pure" birds. They just won't put them up in front of a judge. In fact they come up with all sorts of reasons and excuses not to. You may also notice that they have web pages selling their "just as good if not better" birds.
Keith
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spinner jim
44 posts
Jan 31, 2007
10:58 AM
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Hey guys this topic is warming up nicely ,we have been here before i think lol,firstly no one on this planet can prove beyond any doubt that their birds are true birmingham rollers ???,i suppose the original birds were imported from birmingham england hence the name but strict records have not been kept so we have only the verbal accounts of breeders to go by,although a lot of breeders are very reliable and truthfull about questions you may ask about bloodlines some will bend the truth especially if money is involved ,also on the subject of experts i know of third generation flyers in the uk who would not stand up and say they are experts but the knowledge passed over to them over the years the likes of us will never get to hear,i think the mental picture we each percieve to be the br is slightly different according to what individual birds we own,but we wont fall out about it lol,i have had my little speech now and feel a lot better and enjoy this site,keep this post going guys lets go for it lol jim, uk.
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Batlizard
15 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:27 AM
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My personal opinion - Everyone keeps picking apart this little bird, pretty soon we're all going to have 100% proven mutts and we'll all be getting along just fine! LOL! Seriously, how long before Recessive Reds are crosses? Someone mentioned muffs or boots being brought in by a cross. Last I read up on that, they were perfectly acceptable in the BR.
Rocky
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Frankie
49 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:30 AM
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Jerry Amen my brother could not have said it better myself and Tony you make a good point too
Justin those was some pretty rollers
anytime someone thinks they know everything it worries me becasue i do not think anybody knows everything
my opinion Frankie
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W@yne
233 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:31 AM
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Ive got an headache arrggggh
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1055 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:34 AM
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Hey W@yne, take 2 aspirin and go to bed. That will work!
That's just my opinion. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Missouri-Flyer
166 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:40 AM
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Hey Frankie,
you can see pics of my birds on page 10 under the 2 post started by me....Just put your uncolored glasses on and they will look like everyone elses..LOL...that was before this past weekends overfly!!!Just kidding on the color everyone.Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 11:57 AM
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Frankie
50 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:50 AM
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hey JERRY OR TONY you guys in Missouri getting any snow it is snowing like crazy here school even got out early first time this year. On the color issue all pigeons come from rock doves and look at all the different breeds and colors we have now in pigeons. How can you say you can't get colored rollers out of your standard color rollers? Especially if you are picking and breeding for different colors personally I think most people that don't like colored rollers when they get one or two that shows a little different color instead of breeding out of it they cull it. Maybe not but there's no way you could say standard colors can't produce pretty colored rollers. Because the rock dove and it's color and the history of the pigeon proves you can. My opinion, Frankie
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Missouri-Flyer
167 posts
Jan 31, 2007
11:56 AM
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yes Frankie, In my area we have received maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch in last 2 hours...No matter how much it snows, it cant be as bad as the ice storm we had 2 weeks ago...That was hectic...Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Frankie
51 posts
Jan 31, 2007
12:06 PM
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we have about 2 1/2 inches now and its still coming down anymore of your birds come back Frankie
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Missouri-Flyer
169 posts
Jan 31, 2007
12:10 PM
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Nope..I have given up now...I took the 2 that I took out and put them back in..I was gonna fly them today but clouds were low,windy,and now snowing..maybe tomorrow..that gives me a whopping 7 in the kit box..Still looking for ya saturday if the weather isnt to bad....It will be cold, but the birds will fly..Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Frankie
52 posts
Jan 31, 2007
1:46 PM
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still looking forward to coming up hope the weather clears up. I'm going to go look at pictures of your birds. Later Frankie
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Frankie
53 posts
Jan 31, 2007
2:04 PM
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Jerry, just went back and looked at your birds. That's what I'm talking about. A variety of colors. Birds that not only look good performing in the air but if your just looking at them in your loft it's something different to look at then just the standard colors. It looks like to me different colored birds would be easier to tell which ones are doing good and what not when their in the air. Are these the ones you lost? It's snowing so hard right now here that you can barely see across the road. We probably have about 4 inches. Like you said earlier I'd take snow over ice any day. Frankie
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Missouri-Flyer
173 posts
Jan 31, 2007
2:13 PM
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yes Frankie,
Those were the ones I lost..The grizzle on the top I still have, and a few others..It is snowing here pretty good also....Hope it ends, but with the temps for mid 20's for highs, I dont see it going anywhere..but it is Jan...Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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belle
140 posts
Jan 31, 2007
2:41 PM
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Those were good looking birds, looks like all that snow is coming my. Hey Jerry how big are your box perch (each one) I'm thinking about doing the boxes. Justin
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Missouri-Flyer
174 posts
Jan 31, 2007
2:48 PM
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Hey Justin....Those are 8 inches tall and 10 inches wide...I am going to redo them as soon as it warms up with 1X4's, same height and width..I built a double kit box onto the side of my breeder pen this winter and havent done anything with the other side.That was where my 2007 birds were going, but now I have both side available, so before I place birds in I will redo it...Thanks for the comments...Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Huey
46 posts
Feb 01, 2007
7:32 AM
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If everyone has their own "truth", is there ever a lie
I guess I was saying "Yes there is a lie. It is when people intentionally mislead you.
I agree with you on Opinions and am thankful you let people express them. I enjoy reading them.
I have shown under lots of Judges. I highly respected almost all of them. A couple years ago one excused me from a class. I had the best horse at the show and the audience just about BOOed him out. I especially respect him. My horse was young, she worked harder than the rest and gave out. She broke gait. I felt it and the Judge saw it. He made a good call. Didn't make me happy. But it was the right thing. I had a number of folks telling me what poor judging we had. Actually we had good judging. Her next show she also broke gait just before the class was over. That judge gave her the Championship.
We always go back to color. I like to see different colors flying. I too don't know which colors or OK and which are not. I assume people against color think all our pigeons be Blue or Ash Red.
In the horse world lots of people tell me how great their horses are. They wont put them in the show ring thought. I wont brag about having good Rollers until they are good enough to fly in front of a Judge.
If crest appear in my Pigeons I am going to assume they were crossed somewhere before I got them and were given to me as Pure Birmingham Rollers. Otherwise it would be like my National Champion Paso Mare have a Quarter horse foal. It an't going to happen. My opinion.
I have Grizzle, Almond, Spread Black, Resesive Red, Blue, Dun, Yellow, and Yellow Pied. I am assuming that Yellow and Almond are not good colors. The rest are OK. Out of 40 birds I raised only two are any good. A Dun with white flights and a Solid Yellow. Both Cocks. They are said to be Jaconettes.
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MILO
146 posts
Feb 01, 2007
8:22 AM
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Huey.
The colored birds can roll just as good as any other. Nobody has ever said that. It's hard to weed through all the arguments and really understand what people are saying. It does come out that way. You said Yellows and Almonds aren't that good. Well, you probably said that because maybe someone "led" you there? Through my own experiences I have come to many conclusions. I would agree with your assessment only because I have never seen exceptional yellows or almonds. Actually I take that back, I have, but not in the numbers that come in a variety of other colors. I have seen only a handful, yet I have seen hundreds, even more, that come in the more conventional colors and patterns. I would never keep them because of the poor percentages. Who's got the time? LOL Good tinker project for someone else, but not for me. That's really how it goes for rollers. Form your own opinions, and keep what you enjoy. At the end of the day, it is you who pays the feed bill.
c
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motherlodelofts
1352 posts
Feb 01, 2007
8:58 AM
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Putting the roll into the Mongrels was the easy part, where they fall short is the mental and physical glue to hold them together to handle the roll. And that is the hard part, garbage in, garbage out.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2007 9:00 AM
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