Missouri-Flyer
175 posts
Jan 31, 2007
2:58 PM
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Are there any ways to tell what colored bird mated up will produce what colored young...I.E Grizzle to Grizzle, Mottle to Mottle, etc..Does it depend on the color of the background and the genes, or will a grizle and grizzle produce grizzles?..Thanks,Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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STARFIRE
318 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:10 PM
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-Hey Jerry:
YES,YEs,Yes,and yes.LOL
STARFIRE
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Missouri-Flyer
176 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:15 PM
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LOL..thanks Stan...I know sometimes when you breed 2 Palomino horses together you get what is called a Cremello, white skin,white hair,blue eyes..I dont like that and wanted to see if my grizzles mated were going to produce something other than grizzle..Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1107 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:27 PM
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Grizzle isn't a color so the color part of the question will depend on the true color of the birds (ie, ash red grizzle, blue bar grizzle, etc). Now I will attempt to totally befuddle your comprehension....lol. Most grizzle forms are either heterozygous or homozygous so with your grizzles you have various options depending on the package of the parents. An example would be if both were het grizzle (meaning typically one of their parents was grizzle and one was non grizzle), 25% would be homozygous grizzle, 50% het grizzle and 25% non grizzle. You would have to breed A LOT to get the numbers to work out correctly. Basically if you are breeding grizzles together, you can expect to raise a proportionally higher number of grizzles as opposed to non grizzles. Mottles can be the same thing, but it depends on the mottle in question. Some recessive red mottles aren't grizzle/mottle, the white simply being a modification derived from the recessive red.
Brian.
PS--you can usually tell your homo grizzles by the fact they are mostly white such as stork marked torts, etc.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 3:28 PM
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Frankie
54 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:32 PM
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Jerry, i don't know the answer to your question but I've always heard your not suppose to breed almond to almond. I have before and so far i haven't had nothing bad happen. I heard somewhere that mottles were like almonds but I don't know... that's a question I'd like answered. Can you breed almond to almond and mottle to mottle or do you run into problems sometimes? Thanks! Frankie
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Missouri-Flyer
177 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:41 PM
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Brian, here are 2..first is cock..The Hen was out of a grizzle that looked like her and out of a red grizzle...I just dont comprehend the color barrier between me and these pigeons..Guess that doesnt make me a good color breeder!!..LOL..Jerry.. the 3rd pic is of this cocks last years son.
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 3:42 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
178 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:46 PM
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What would the color on this bird be considered, a red grizzle? Thanks, Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Missouri-Flyer
179 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:48 PM
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LOL, I am picking your brain Brain,
here is another from that top cock..
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1109 posts
Jan 31, 2007
3:58 PM
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The top three blacks appear to be what is commonly expressed as Under Grizzle which for conversation sake is like Grizzle to a much lesser degree of amplitude...if that makes sense. Spread inhibits the expression of Under Grizzle to various degrees and most all will look pretty much exactly like those blacks you posted. Its not exclusive, but most of the time it is a safe bet those birds would be Under Grizzle rather than Classic Grizzle (which tends to render the entire bird with grizzling). The ash red is probably under grizzle too, but it could be classic grizzle as well, but the rest of the bird tends to make me believe otherwise. The son is a basic black white flight not expressing grizzle. You can get a classic grizzle looking bird from those two at the top when you double up the under grizzle, but if the bird is spread, most of the grizzle expression will molt away after the first molt and look pretty much like either parent. Mate one of those two to that ash red and you will probably get some that are non spread and will express more grizzling. Now if you were to mate that black w/f to say the black pepperhead hen (pepperhead is a common term for birds expressing grizzle like that), some will come out with like him, but with white patch all over like an odd side and still have whole white feathers in some colored areas. It seems piebald and grizzle kind of explode white sometimes.
Those are some pretty healthy looking muffs on that cock bird!!!
Okay, enough ranting, I'm off to the gun range.
Brian.
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Missouri-Flyer
180 posts
Jan 31, 2007
4:00 PM
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Justin,
I never flew that bird but the guy I got them from advised me that he was about a 20 footer, and very frequent..I have flown several of his young out, from 3 different hens and all of them have been good. That white flight pictured was turning into heat..I hated to loose him, and the red grizzle was the deepest bird I raised last year...I cried...:(
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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nicksiders
1307 posts
Jan 31, 2007
5:22 PM
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Who breeds Birmingham Rollers to achieve a certian color? Is there a certian color you desire most? Do you wonder what color(s) you are going to get from each pairing(in other words are you concerned about the color you are going to recieve)? Do you breed to achieve a spread other than bars; grizzles; checks; mottles; or spangles?
Don't worry, I am not going to debate your responses. But, I would like for you to explain your answers as much as you care to.
Maybe look at this as kind of a poll and nothing else.
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Snicker Rollers
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KrisB
6 posts
Jan 31, 2007
6:15 PM
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Hi Missouri-Flyer...
I don't like those Cremellos either! Yuck!! LOL! Never breed two Palominos together hoping to get good Palominos. Palomino is a "single dilute" of the recessive color Chestnut (one gene for "dilute" on Chestnut). Cremello is a "double dilute" of Chestnut (two genes for "dilute" on Chestnut). To make the best Palominos, it is said to breed a Palomino to a really red Chestnut (a "cherry chestnut")... then you'll get good Palominos! You only want a single dose of dilute!
I like your birds... that muffed one is neat!
Figurin' color genetics...it's all very interesting, to say the least!
Happy flying.... and riding.
Kris
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Oldfart
25 posts
Jan 31, 2007
6:48 PM
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Green,yellow,purple,I care less!
I agree with Nick, red chks. rule!
That is as much color as I care to consider.
:-),Thom
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belle
142 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:02 PM
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I don't like Cremellos and palominos I don't know why but I just don't like yellow horses. My favorite color is buckskin.
Just my option LOL Justin
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Frankie
55 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:12 PM
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me too justin. buckskin is my favorite color too. on a horse or pitbull. i'm really partial to the buckskin brindle. i wonder what color you would call a buckskin colored pigeon? ~lol~ Frankie
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Missouri-Flyer
183 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:23 PM
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Thanks Kris....That muffed cock throws other muffs. I am not a big fan of them, but with the performance he puts into his birds, I keep him around..
I do own a Cremello that I just weaned. He was an accidental breeding from my Palamino stud to my Palamino Mare..I didnt know who was prg. til weeks before she dropped..I will train him like the rest, and he will work a cow just as good as the others....His color is just hair deep, but wont do it again..Personal preference..Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Jimbo113
59 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:27 PM
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Horse colors::::: I am real partial to the line back duns with the zebra striping showing through just a bit. Too cool. I do have a Buckskin gelding (QH) a Bay gelding (QH) and the wife has a huge Percheron gelding who is black mostly now but starting to grey up a bit. What's the genetics behind that? He started out coal black but is starting to grey, then he will dapple (very pretty) and then grey all the way out. Interesting, kinda like a rosewing turning into a whiteside eventually..... Maybe??
Jimbo
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"We Don't Rent Pigs"
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belle
143 posts
Jan 31, 2007
7:53 PM
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Jerry someone somewhere will pay big $$$ just for the color you get him working a cow and then he will be worth even more. Just remember color can work a cow like color can roll. LOL
Here is my buckskin but he has a dun strip so that makes him a dun first and he has zebra striping and roaning That's me last spring starting my sister's horse I hate that horse but I hate to say it, he is turning in to a good horse don't tell my sister that.LOL My horse has grown a lot since that pic.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2007 8:00 PM
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KrisB
7 posts
Feb 01, 2007
5:40 PM
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Jerry (Missouri-Flyer)... That muffed fellow just really intrigues me... can't say why! He's just cool. If he ever needs a new home, give a holler!! LOL!!
Was that your filly, that nice pic of a QH filly with the saddle on? Boy, that's as nice a "working type" QH as I've seen in awhile!
I live in a technocolor world... I'm an artist, so that explains it. Sure appreciate a little color in my world. I've been drawing since I was a little kid; what did I draw first?? BIRDS and HORSES! God luv 'em... birds and horses! (and yep, I like those blue and red checks too... and black. I like Andalusian. Give me white flights! LOL!)
Justin (Belle)... I like your horse photo too. Buckskin is one of my favorite horse colors. Buckskin is a "single dilute" of Bay.... like Palomino is a "single dilute" of Chestnut. True Buckskin is not supposed to have a dorsal stripe though... all the different Duns have dorsal stripes. Dun is different genetics than the dilutes, although I think sometimes there might be a couple different things going on at the same time that might express themselves. I like Grullo!
Jimbo... your big Percheron is a Gray. If he was born black and is going gray (and beginning to dapple), he is a true Gray. He will eventually go entirely white as he ages (it'll take awhile to go entirely white though). Gray is a very dominant color in horses, if I remember correctly, the most dominant. Have to keep an eye on Gray horses... they are very prone to developing melanomas in the skin as they get older.
Horses, pigeons, hunting, shooting, fishing...
Here's to this great sporting life.
Enjoy...
Kris
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Missouri-Flyer
184 posts
Feb 01, 2007
6:35 PM
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Belle,
I agree..I have seen the color go for more money than what it is worth because it is something different..He will work a cow when old enough..The Mare was a horse my dad gave me last year before he passed away, so I dont see this colt ever leaving the property. Nice looking horses. I start alot of colt by ponying them also..Safer for the horse and myself, and teaches them to yield,give to pressure,etc.They will naturally follow another horse which makes the training phase easier..Kris is right about your grey, greying out. If they start black and turn then it will be a true grey, which will probably be a steel grey or light grey..My favorite is the steel grey..
Kris,
Yes that was my 3 year old Smart Little Lena bred filly. I have 60 days on her and she is by far the smartest filly I have owned in 20 years. She will open gates,side pass across the arena,slide stop 20 feet, and I started tracking the hot Heels machine with her. I run roping cattle back up the alley on her and she is a cow eater...
that muffed cock fell for my eye when I picked him up also..there was just something about him that I liked....LOL...If I ever get rid of him I will let ya know..His son 2nd below him is a fast bird rolling in the 30 foot range..He bumped twice coming in so I pulled him for the past month and reflew him today for the first time..Rolled deep and fast but didnt bump this time..Let me know if he interest ya, and maybe we could do something about it.....Thanks for the compliments...Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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Jimbo113
60 posts
Feb 01, 2007
9:30 PM
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10-4 on the grey color on our Percheron. I knew that and about the melanoma tendencies too. I will be watching for any sign of that. He is broke to saddle and is a pleasure horse only for now. I did go get a bull back with him once but just cause he was already saddled at the time. He is a gentle giant. Jerry, I dig the steel grey too.
I used to have a hen out of black rain that was muffed. She didn't throw muffs but her daughters did. I figured some type of genetic reason for it but I haven't ever really tried to figure it out. I think they are pretty cool looking though.
Jimbo
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"We Don't Rent Pigs"
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ArlenS
11 posts
Feb 01, 2007
10:33 PM
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(Deleted By Moderator)
Why is it that everytime someone asks a pigeon question, some of you always preempt the question by changing the subject to pit bulls or horses. This is a pigeon web site.
Either start a new thread or better yet find a web sit about horses or pit bulls.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2007 8:46 AM
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Jimbo113
61 posts
Feb 01, 2007
10:46 PM
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Arlen, What is wrong with roller buddies visiting about something other than rollers? You can visit with several guys at the same time and that is something you can't do by one on one emails. That has been discussed before here too. The main road here is performing rollers but I for one enjoy the side trips once in a while. If something is boring you then keep on scrolling. Maybe you can type us out a list of things we can discuss???
Scroll on brother, that's what I do and I am sure others do as well.
Truly, Jim Williams
Ovalo, Texas
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"We Don't Rent Pigs"
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Missouri-Flyer
186 posts
Feb 02, 2007
4:59 AM
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Arlen,
there are things that people see and do in life that would make them shake their heads, or say things as you stated about this being ONLY a roller pigeon site. Like has been said before, it is interesting to see and talk about what others here do besides pigeons..
If you were walking on a beach and saw 2 guys having sex in plain view, would you stop and watch, or move on? That is a question only you can answer, but apply that same answer here! Not meaning to be rude or an ass, but if the thread doesnt interest you, then move on without your 2 cents, as many of us do daily..Jerry
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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rosebudrollers
45 posts
Feb 02, 2007
7:44 AM
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Thanks ArlenS.I agree its rude to change the subject in mid stream.Horses ,dogs and critters are fine when posted under a heading that will allow others who are not interested to skip over it.Justin your pets are great but maybe you could just show them under your own post. This is only my opinion and not intended to offend.It was a roller post and half way through it the subject changed. Curtis
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1061 posts
Feb 02, 2007
8:44 AM
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Hey Arlen, thanks for posting so many links. However, if anyone here wants to study breeding and inheritance, you can support this site with your purchase of the book: Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons" by Axel Sell.
Then please share here what you know.
Linking to competitor sites, especially those that taunt me with slobby emails about the traffic that goes their way because we allow open debate on this site with minimal if any editing or deletion can no longer be allowed. I don't have time for such adolescence antics. Seriously.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
1325 posts
Feb 02, 2007
9:08 AM
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I asked several questions about pigeons and only Thom (oldfart) responded. Thank you Thom.
Nobody is required to answer nor do I expect it. But, just to go on to other topics and none of them about pigeons I simply found somewhat rude.........BUT, thats alright, I will get over it. I can be a rude bastard myself, but not purposely.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Jimbo113
62 posts
Feb 02, 2007
2:52 PM
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Hello all,
I sure don't see it as rude but that's just me. Rude would be calling someone elses birds a pile of crap or some thing along that line that is so commonly done here.
Of course we are under renewed orders to be civil and also to not post about things other than roller issues. I can live with that if that's what Tony wants. No problem.
Getting others to quit the bad mouthing and trying to stir upp discontent..... I am interested to see how long that lasts or if it even gets off the ground. Time will tell.
And Nick I am in total aggreement with a small portion of your last post at least. Oh yeah,LOL.
Jim
Ovalo, Texas
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"We Don't Rent Pigs"
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belle
145 posts
Feb 02, 2007
5:52 PM
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The buckskin's mom was a dun I think she had paint in her somewhere but didn't show any paint markings but the following year she had a buckskin paint with the dun strip.
Starting this colt by ponying was fun LOL he pulled and pulled but he learned fast that Buckshot likes pulling more, but the longer it takes for one to learn something the better they are at it in the end.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2007 9:03 PM
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