rollerpigeon1963
135 posts
Feb 02, 2007
9:48 AM
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Hey Everyone,
I have a question for you all? the title of this topic is not a funny one but one I think might have some merit.
Since it's breeding time or close to it in my neck of the woods. I just wonder how many of you guys take in the fact of color balancing. You know breeding red check to blue check? Not the "rare color" colors but the plain ole basic colors.
Do some see this as just a myth? or is there real legit merit to this. As I was pairing up the birds I noticed that 95% of my birds are solid blue check. And the remaining is either rec reds or rec. red mottles. I know one of the rec red hens carries red. Because I did raise a red bar bird a few years back.
Out of all of last years squeekers not one red and only one rec red. I had to lock them up early last year before they really came into the roll. Because I got a late start getting my breeders together.
Now do any of you see anything wrong with what I have and continue to do what I'm doing? Or do any of you see me running into a brick wall down the road? What opinions do you have to offer?
I guess I have a boring loft with all that color in it LOL LOL but would like to hear some feedback on this topic.
Thanks Brian Middaugh
http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2007 9:51 AM
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nicksiders
1332 posts
Feb 02, 2007
10:18 AM
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Brian,
I don't "color balance" in my breeding system, but I cannot declare it to be a myth because I have never did it and would have nothing to base this.
I only look at performance levels and character assessments to pair up and I do not see color or feather as an issue in these measurements.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1122 posts
Feb 02, 2007
10:34 AM
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Brian, I've already had my pairs going for about two months. I don't take color into consideration except:
I will never mate two recessive reds together.
I will never mate two grizzles together, except for pepperhead grizzles.
I will never mate two red checks together though I might just to breed some homo ash red cocks.
I've gotten to where I would prefer not to mate two blacks together simply because I have way too many blacks and it is a pain in the ass.
I recently had Danny send me a box of ash red squeakers to fly out because I just can't raise more than a couple every year and desperately want to get more ash red into that family. Its all blacks and dark checks and it drives me nuts when I got pull out the best bird in the A team, and guess what color it is..lol.
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bman
202 posts
Feb 02, 2007
10:37 AM
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I am going out on a limb here,and someone will probably saw it off! But in keeping with Brain's question in an established breeding program does any one consider the amount of white in their pairings?I'll explain,if I were to describe the "classic" Birmingham roller I picture a bird with white flights and a badged head.Red.blue,black whatever.And I see a lot of lofts carry that classic(in my mind) look.Is it a consideration with all other factors being more less equal?
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Ron
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1124 posts
Feb 02, 2007
11:07 AM
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The only white I consider is that I won't pair up two classic grizzles. All other white expressions aren't a consideration either way for me.
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bman
204 posts
Feb 02, 2007
11:11 AM
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Thanks BMC,
Could you elaborate on the grizzle x grizzle ?
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Ron
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motherlodelofts
1362 posts
Feb 02, 2007
11:42 AM
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Brian I don't breed rec red to rec red , other than that I do consider light and dark factors (smokey/dirty) when pairing , which is color balancing.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1128 posts
Feb 02, 2007
11:45 AM
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Ron, I don't like grizzle x grizzle because it produces homozygous grizzles which in the birds I have worked with, means eventual lawn darts (heat).
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Steve_uk
66 posts
Feb 02, 2007
12:36 PM
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I try not to pr like to like ie red to red i dont no why but i dont but somtimes if it looks like the pr then i will but it does have to have that somthing!
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Velo99
896 posts
Feb 02, 2007
6:21 PM
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I have a several colors . Griz,reds and black mostly. I have noticed my griz are a bit loose with a few exceptions.So I am going to go with a darker selection this year. One of my good pairs is black. I broke them up and put them on dark colored mates who have proved thier worth in the breeder loft. If they don`t stiffen up after the first moult, I`ll be g2g.
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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JMUrbon
211 posts
Feb 02, 2007
7:19 PM
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I really dont pay much attention to the color of the bird and as for RR+RR every bird in my loft is carrying it so I dont shy away from it one bit. I had 1 rolldown last year and 2 the year befor so that is not a factor in any of my birds. Blacks Brian, I had to chuckel at that one. I will get approximately 60 % self blacks every year and another 20% Rec Reds and then it goes down to ash reds and blue checks. They all seem to work for me and all are very closely related so I guess I am stuck with them. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Missouri-Flyer
192 posts
Feb 02, 2007
7:47 PM
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Boring loft? Well, get some color
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Eat, sleep, Cowboys, Pigeons... The facts of life
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JMUrbon
212 posts
Feb 02, 2007
9:05 PM
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I am really not interested in the color of the bird at all. I care about one thing and only one thing and that is the performance of the bird. At this point in my program it would be a major setback to add something in because of appearance. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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rollerpigeon1963
136 posts
Feb 02, 2007
9:26 PM
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Joe,
Same here I believe if I choose something other than performance than it will be stepping backwards. And I don't need that. I was just worried breeding 85% Blacks/Blues and probably the other rec reds are carring blue except for one hen. Which is carring red because of the one red bar bird.
Joe why don't you get more rec reds in your birds when most or all carry it? Have you noticed anything different from your rec reds to others in your loft? Like being more frequent, deeper, or stiffer? Now down the road do you think your rec red numbers will increase? and after a while do you think they all can be rec reds? I know its a little far fetched but wanted to ask?
I just know some families have certain traits towards certain colors or modifiers. Like breeding yellows together make them weaker. And some have said that the rec reds in they family were to hot. I know thats not the case its just that particular bird carries the heat. And it just happens to be rec reds.
But I wanted to get some opinions from others to see what they think.
Thanks Brian Middaugh
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fhtfire
795 posts
Feb 03, 2007
10:09 PM
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Brian,
I really do not worry about the color matching. I put together what I know about the birds that are proven. I know that some cocks throw the depth..some hens throw the speed and so on. When I put new birds together it is based on how they perform and there character and what I like in that bird. I pair them according to what I like and what has worked in the past in my family of birds. But to be honest...it new pairs are a gamble just like anything else...you don't know until you fly them out. What works in one loft may not work in another loft. Grizzle to grizzle in brians loft may not be the same as grizzle grizzle in my loft. He has learned his birds and know what happens when you do that mating. If the color thing was so true...lots of the guys with a majority of blues would be spinning there wheels with no soft to mate too..LOL!! Alot is just having that gut feeling and trying it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
213 posts
Feb 04, 2007
9:10 AM
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Brian I do get a ton of Rec Reds. Some years much more than any other color but they have never been the hottest birds however they have been some of the best. In all actuality the 3 birds that hit the ground on me in the last 2 years were blue checks. The rec reds have been very stable. in the last 6 years I have had 1 rec red hit the ground as a roll down and 1 black and 1 ash red and 3 blue checks. When I pair up birds I do it stricktly by performance and gut feeling. I dont pay any attention to the color of the bird. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Hector Coya
111 posts
Feb 04, 2007
9:20 AM
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I thought you guys didnt color breed.
I put BEST to BEST no matter what color....
Hector Coya
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W@yne
243 posts
Feb 04, 2007
10:46 AM
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Hector that's not color breeding that's using common sense.
regards
W@yne uk
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rollerpigeon1963
137 posts
Feb 04, 2007
10:53 AM
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Hector,
No where did I mention color breeding I said color Balancing. Thats using the family colors that I have Blue/Rec red and no ash reds.
I asked people opinions on this subject because some families have hotter lines in them and some people don't like breeding to hard of feather so they use a soft feather to balance it out.
I was looking to this as if it was a myth or something some people actually look at. Would it be helpful for the new guy or should he just ignore it.
I had talked to some of the orignal breeders that have my family of birds. And I found out that it is just a myth in my family. They have been breeding blue/blue for many years with no problems with reguards to performance. I have talked to other breeders first hand. And they do pay attention to color balancing {not color breeding}. I just wanted this topic up for discussion and would hope someone would have an opinion. Maybe a tool for breeding best to best who knows but its not going to help anyone unless its brought up on a forum or a chatroom. And then it might be one sided so I figure give everyone a chance here.
Thanks Brian Middaugh
http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com
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Velo99
904 posts
Feb 04, 2007
11:38 AM
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Brian,
In my case I am going with darker birds in an attempt to stiffen up some of the lines a little. I had a bunch that were doing the single spin a little too long. I feel this might inhibit the normal development of the proper roll,as they never seemed to grasp the concept. One of 10 got the point and straightened out. If I can simply move some producing darker breeders around and get some results.......... I would think this is a perfect example of color balancing.
bman,
I read somewhere the reason the oldtimers added the balds and white flights was the spreads and checks would eventually get too stiff. White,being traditionally a looser color this helped the overall performance and breeding characteristics.Bear in mind this was during the inception of the breed.
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2007 11:42 AM
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JMUrbon
214 posts
Feb 04, 2007
12:06 PM
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Brian pay no attention to Hector. It seems he just couldnt resist the oportunity to throw controversy into a good thread. Or maybe he just doesnt understand the difference between color balanced breeding and breeding for color.Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Hector Coya
113 posts
Feb 04, 2007
3:06 PM
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Joe if you are color balance breedind you are still looking at color to choose the mate,i pick my birds on feel of the body,i can do that in the dark,to me the body form is more inportant .
We all have our way of picking for the stock loft, it's my opinion only and it work's for me Thank's Hector Coya
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2007 8:27 PM
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JMUrbon
215 posts
Feb 04, 2007
7:56 PM
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Why didnt you just say that the first time Hector. Breeding for color is expecting a certain color out of the pair and putting the actual performance second. Color balance is inall actuality not a real science bu more of belief that different color combinations with soft or hard fathers will produce better birds. I for one do not believe in either method but some do as I like yourself feel that performance is the most important ingredient in any breeding program. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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DeepSpinLofts
5 posts
Feb 15, 2007
8:56 PM
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I'm on the same page with Hector.
"I put BEST to BEST no matter what color"
Last year I mated a nice tight 20ft tennis ball hen with that sweet doughnut hole in middle.... to a hot 40ft pole-driving cock (with stable control).
I ended up with Tortoise Shells, Grizzles, Dark Checks and a White with black tips. I'm not going to say what color the parents were.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Flyin Hawaiian
2 posts
Feb 16, 2007
1:48 PM
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Hey Bro,
This can be misleading to those who do not understand the reasoning behind color balancing. First and foremost we have to agree that the roll prospensities are in the family in which we are working. The fear of dark check to dark check continually over years of generations can and will be detrimental to the stiffer side providing you ramdomly select birds from an unproven family of rolling pigeons. Lets say for instance you are breeding from some jaconette birds that carry a dark pigment in color and you pick up a dark check from a friend that is not related or related distantly but is of a dark pigment of the same. Here is when your running into problems because this isn't a color related matter but rather a feather related matter. The basics of color in pigeons is liking unto thoroughbred horses it all has to start somewhere. The key to the mix is the feather wealth in which the bird retains. This in itself is a lesson to be learned. Thier is two types of birds of feather. One is a Tightly knit feathered bird and the other is a looser knit feathered bird. One thing is for certain if a roller has a wealth of feather it will definitely be on the stiff side irregardless of what family it has been raised upon. The thought of color balancing is to regulate the aforementioned to get the right amount of feather on the bird to enhance the rolling frequency. The dead give away on the good ones that are noticeable is the wide eye ceres that they covet. Bill Pensom mentioned the wide eye ceres as a regulator of proer amount of feathering on a roller. Thus the guys that have established a good solid family of T checks was based upon having this gift with in the family in which they select for roll and are working with. Do not be confused by meriting the exception to the rule policy as often times white selfs will have the plumage and tightness of knit that a T check self may carry as well. The best one can do is to select for roll first and than try and apply the principles of pheno type to curtail the small details but that comes along in the learning curve that we all are on. JMHO Ivan
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rust never sleeps
117 posts
Feb 16, 2007
2:51 PM
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Hi! Ivan wellcome to the site. Had a great time at the portland OR. convention yours R. Reyes
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JMHD
124 posts
Feb 16, 2007
3:00 PM
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Ivan well said good to see you here.John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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Flyin Hawaiian
3 posts
Feb 16, 2007
4:12 PM
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Hey Johnny and Richard mahalo for the welcome. One thing I want to make clear about this color balancing with rollers. Ash Red check and blue check is your dominant colors and hard shelled colors because these are your base. The old pensom line family of birds were based on those hard colors via 119 X 514 and the list go on. The lighter color birds were supposedly the ticket to open up the harder colors in order to get a happy medium so the story goes. Like I said previously in my other post you have to have performance fixed within your family in order to be successful with anything your trying to accomplish. This is first and foremost.Crossing up grizzles to hard shelled blues and reds is opening up the window to soften the harder shelled birds thus creating more frequency or at least encouraging that to happen if infact your birds are going stiff. Jerry Higgins has the most profound article on color balancing best for those who don't understand why to read his article. I believe at one time the NBRC Web page had it listed on roller related articles.
Aloha Ivan
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quickspin
70 posts
Nov 11, 2007
11:29 PM
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Before I didn't care about color balancing but I try it this year and it seem that it did work for me. I don't mate two of the same color together. I get a lot more frequency by color balancing, it doesn't take anything away by trying it.
Before I bred similar color like grizzle to grizzle and produce too frequent and deep birds, dark check with dark checks and produce stiffer birds but fast. The only way to know is to try it and if you don't try it how will you know.
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gotspin7
415 posts
Nov 12, 2007
5:52 AM
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Quick, thanks for bringing this thread to the front! Or I have never would have seen it good thread!
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CSRA
435 posts
Nov 12, 2007
7:15 AM
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Very nice topic some possible truth to the color scheme its not for everyone
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quickspin
255 posts
Jan 10, 2008
8:04 PM
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.
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Skylineloft
898 posts
Jan 10, 2008
8:47 PM
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I just skimmed through this but from what I read, I have to agree with Brian Mc Cormic. I know he does not post here anymore but I bet he still reads what is posted.....lol
Hi Brian!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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jerrylynn
34 posts
Jan 10, 2008
9:39 PM
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It was always my experience and I never was a genectics guy! That I always mated when possible Bluebars to Grizzles. The outcome was Grizzles and Bluebar young. Anyone else ever breed Bars and Grizzles this way?
jerry Lynn
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Bill C
45 posts
Jan 10, 2008
11:17 PM
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Hey Brian, You got to judge my kit during the fall fly or was it the WC ? in Sac, remember me. I had the kit that was lose and not tight kitting that day.
Anyway, I had just been to visit Joe Kiser the past week and I went to get a few Checks from him. He talked alot about the rollers and taught me some things that were real valuable informaiton to his birds. He knows I have some birds from Joe Borges ( which I have mostly red checks ) Infact the only bird I pulled to breed from last year was a red check from Borges line. So he told me not to breed check to check or they will get seldom and too strong. He said you always want to cross the red check cock to a blue check hen and vise versa or a black self to a red check.
It most likely depends on the family of birds. When I talked to Joe Borges, I told him out of 50 birds I get about 40 red checks. He told me to just mix up the pairs because they are all crossed back and forth that way. He said you will get more red checks some years and the next you might get more blue checks.
Joe Kiser also talked about the hard and soft feather. He said not all checks and blacks are hard feather like people think nor is all re-reds and red checks ect all soft color. This could have been on the other post about hard color but any way in this family of birds he highly recommended me to not pair checks to checks. I think if I did for just one year that would not be bad, but not to pair them that way every year and then put the best checks in the air to gether again and again. Now I should mention the birds I got from Joe Borges were squeakers stong on the wing, and he said you might as well just breed from them and pick out the best for future stock. That is why the performance did not come into play with these pairs. But both Kiser and Borges told me to cross the colors in this family of birds.
I plan to go back and visit more with these two mentors and hopefully get an article from them to put into our local bulletin. I could mail you a copy of that bulletin when and if I can get Kiser to explain some more of it to me. But a lot of our conversation had everything to do with your question about balance, in part because that was why I wanted a few checks from him. Bill C
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gotspin7
1178 posts
Jan 11, 2008
5:05 AM
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Jerry, usually I will take my grizzles to reds.
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Sal Ortiz
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3025 posts
Jun 02, 2009
2:40 PM
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Good post......
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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macsrollers
86 posts
Jun 03, 2009
9:48 PM
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i think color balancing in your breeding program is something the masters used. But they spent years developing their family of birds and understand the genetics of that family. I have even had Doug Ouellette talk to me about whether a bird out of certain pairs of his were orange eyed or pearled eyed, or did they have horned beaks or feet(black markings). These are things I never considered as I didn't know the family like he does. I am learning and understanding more and more as I work with his birds. But to simply color balance early in your program because it is something someone said to do or was in an article you read doesn't make sense. Once you prove your birds out and understand the genetics behind them and how they work and produce, then color balancing is a good tool to be used. Dependent on if you stick with a family exclusively or go different directions with several families, this could take years to be able to comprehend. I understand more and more each day why William Pensom wrote it takes about 30 years to understand rollers. Great hobby where we never stop learning! Good subject!
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harrison
838 posts
Jun 04, 2009
1:57 PM
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Last year I didnt bother with color in the breeding pen but this year I did.
I tried to match my friends pairs.
Mealy self/redpide.
Mealy bold/red bold.
grizz/red check.
mealy/blue check.
And so on.
I dont no what this means to you guys but I just put my best to best in the same colors as my strock supplier.
Fingers crossed.
The you are coming on with little spins now.
well chuffed.
yours harry
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