Missouri-Flyer
272 posts
Feb 16, 2007
3:46 PM
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Hey guys, especially those that have judged before:
I find it VERY interesting that judges scores vary to such a great extent. While reading, as I do alot of, I have found that certain judges ALWAYS score low, while others ALWAYS score high, no matter where their at, who's birds their judging, or what time of year.
Why has there never been a set standard for such judging? I understand that there are standards as far as number of birds in a kit, number of birds it takes to score, time of fly,etc. but why no set standards on how a judge scores?
I understand people see things different, but when one scores a kit at 150, and the next judge scores the same kit at 400, something is wrong..givin' the kit worked the same both times....Jerry
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Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1459 posts
Feb 16, 2007
4:03 PM
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The high scoreing judges pay little attention to depth, quality, or birds actualy going on a real break.
Myself I will take a quality judge anyday , it is rare that you see good teams not placed properly
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2007 4:12 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1190 posts
Feb 16, 2007
4:04 PM
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Jerry, this thread is likely to get very long...lol.
This has been a topic discussed for years, and justifiably so. The bottom line is there is a standard for what is acceptable to be scored in a kit competition. The problem is that most people see the variance of what is acceptable differently than the next guy. In some cases it is simply an education issue where the person judging has been tutored by the birds flown in his area, including his own. Some people have different levels of reflex vision that can prohibit one person from seeing the quality of spin in a break versus another individual judge who can see it more clearly. Some judges feel satisfied scoring loosely in order to be generous. It is not as if they are going out of their way to score off the wall, they seriously want to be generous. Some judges on the other hand come with a chip on their shoulders and are out to prove a point. A point that often extends beyond "average". These guys can be worse than a loose judge because they often are not scoring what is actually scorable per the rules. Thankfully there aren't many who fall into this category, though some who are used to more loose judges will think they are being too strict with their judging.
When you compare scores as you posted, there are so many different variables that play into that, regardless of who is judging. Seldom does a kit perform the exact same the next time they are judged. Then you have weather related issues or even outbird issues. Sometimes a kit that usually scores well, will get a very low score, though they were working their normal rate. The extra out bird hurt his score. If the person reading the scores doesn't know this, they will think the judge was being a hard ass.
Then there is management. I'll be the first to state that I have yet to get my comp kit to do the same thing on finals day that they did on qualifying day. It is very difficult.
Overall I think most will agree that a majority of people who judge often are "in the ballpark" in terms of how they judge. Personally I feel there are more loose judges than tight ones. I've had some judges come through here that would score anything that happened up there. Sad, but true. But to give credit where credit is due, I try to believe they are doing the best job they know how to. And that is what we have to accept.
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Missouri-Flyer
273 posts
Feb 16, 2007
4:38 PM
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Thanks you 2...So is it safe to say that the loose judges need to get thicker bi-focals?..LOL..With that said, then safe to say that there is no possible way to govern how judges from all over score, especially seeing how they see a kit so differently?..Jerry
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Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1461 posts
Feb 16, 2007
4:50 PM
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Yes cj , "any" fly can only be done with one judge, or some local flys use a panel of three and average or throw out the high and low.
Scott
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Ballrollers
672 posts
Feb 16, 2007
8:49 PM
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I like the panel idea, personally. But there appears to be a host of gray areas in the judging of rollers, that could be better defined. If you ask 10 different guys about these areas, you will get many different opinions about what type of performance should be scored and which ones should not. There needs to be more consistency in these areas. Because of the inherent variables in judging a fly, that cannnot be eliminated, we definitely need to make sure all the judges are on the same page with regards to what types of performance are scoreable. This can only be accomplished by training and certification. This sport is one of the few where the judges or referees are not required to train or be certified. Until we do something along those lines, and until we are willing to bite the bullet, so to speak, we must live with scores that are inconsistent and all over the board. JMHO.
YITS,
Cliff
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motherlodelofts
1467 posts
Feb 16, 2007
9:00 PM
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Cliff , I think that you will still have them all over the board regardless.
I have come to believe that it is all just part of the game , what a flyer has to do is just breed and fly the best birds possible and be extreamly strict , far more time's than not I have felt over scored vrs under scored.
That way it is rare that you will get screwed except by judges scoreing active culls and allowing them to beat out a real team.
I have also seen the rare judge that Brian talked about that thinks being tough is by not scoreing legit birds , also terrible judges.
Scott
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George Ruiz
189 posts
Feb 16, 2007
9:04 PM
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Judges will always see things differant take for instance boxing judges .
youve seen many fights where you thought someone else won the fight, and thier fighting for millions not just for fun.
anyone thats accepts a judging asighnment is a valuable resource in our hobby,
You would be surprised at the number of people that refuse to judge becuase of the commitment it takes to judge say a region .
until youve done this (judge) I dont think you know what it takes. I commend the guys that sacrafice a few weekends with thier family or birds or work just to judge some on elses birds and not even get paid.
and thats not counting the bullshit they have to hear about why they didnt score this or that.
George
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George R.
895 posts
Jul 17, 2008
10:06 PM
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..189 post s
895 post s
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 10:10 PM
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nicksiders
2966 posts
Jul 18, 2008
12:28 AM
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Give him a hat, Tony
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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CVRC
297 posts
Jul 18, 2008
1:27 AM
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very good answer george....
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Cristian Castro
CM Loft
CVR
WWW.COACHELLAVALLEYROLLERS.COM
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sippi
397 posts
Jul 18, 2008
8:20 AM
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Does it really matter what the scores are as long as the same judge does the judging for a region? I would think not. But that is just me. Be it panel or individual as long as it is by the same judge all scores should be in line the same.
sippi
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nicksiders
2967 posts
Jul 18, 2008
5:51 PM
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Judging is difficult and requires your total attention. Then you get the very harsh critisizm that is sometimes very biased. All of this is the reason why you can't find a lot of people who are willing to do it.
It gets right down silly at times the crap that a judge has to put up with.
Nick
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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sundance
638 posts
Jul 18, 2008
7:00 PM
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Just curious,... how many here have judged? Anouther thought,... how many have a score sceet to use even if you just practice scoring your own birds?
This is my first year attempting to judge, and on a very small scale. I gotta tell ya, this is some intimidating shit. I doubt anyone wants to be a bad judge. I doubt there are many who will purposely give an unjust score.
But I do believe there could be some who just dont know the difference between a good scoreable roll, a really bad roll( a tumbler)and then the real problem area... the bird that falls into that grey area. Maybe it`s scoreable, maybe it`s not?
I bet you could get several well respected judges with many, many flys under their belt, all watching the same kit at the same time and this bird in particular, ( the one that falls into that grey area) will probably get scored by some of them and not by others.
This bird, or this type of bird is what spawns these debates now and will still be causing the same problems for judges as long as there are roller competitions.
Certifying judges would probably help and I`d love to attend one of these type of training meetings. But that grey area bird will still pop up and will still fuel these debates.
I think that one fly/ one judge is about as close as we will get to the right kit willing a fly 95% of the time.
there may still be a few flys that will be argued the wrong kit won. Nature of the beast, so to speak.
Unfortunatly these competitions are not cut and dry. There is no 50 yard line, no steel goal, no finish line and nobody I have ever seen has 10, 20,or 30 feet lines drawn in the air to meaasure exactly how far a bird rolled. This is based soley on visual speculation, experience and training. Heavy on the visual speculation and interpretation of what 10 feet, or 20 feet looks like in the air. Are they 100 hundred feet up? 200 ft. up? 600 ft. up? Too many variables without clear, cut and dry guidelines.
Its a wonder anyone ever wants to be a judge, knowing at some point, someone will second guess what you tried to do the best you can at, with the intentions to be a help to the sport, and the clubs. Of which, most will not step up to do. Its easier to bash those that do rather than go out and travel hundreds or thousands of miles in a short time to watch a lot of birds do what we all love seeing them do.
Just my 2 cents
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 18, 2008 7:07 PM
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sippi
398 posts
Jul 18, 2008
7:16 PM
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Dave by your analogy I can see where it is a problem. But elevation and distance can hide faults also. That may be a draw back to my birds. I keep the flying low and close so I can see the quality. I have noticed they look a lot better when they are out a quarter mile and five or six hundred feet up and do a big break. I would score it except I know when they get back down and close there werent near as many scorable birds as it looked like way off.
I admire those willing to take on the responsibility of judging. I would never publicly or privately critize one of them for trying. I hear all the time of people not wanting to judge and I can certainly see why. I too do not believe someone would intentionally do a bad job of judging.
Dave I would rather have the quality kit!
Sippi
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Scott
943 posts
Jul 18, 2008
9:52 PM
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Butch, don't over think it, it has to be just you and that kit and nothing else.
And don't pay any attention to the peanut gallery regardless of who they are,never let others make you question your calls , like I said it is just you and the kit and you have to tune everything else out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sundance
640 posts
Jul 19, 2008
4:13 AM
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Scott, I agree. But who in their right mind wants to volunteer their time knowing someone will be in the background second guessing everything you do.
I think everyone should try being judge for their local flys. Its a good education. Good experience. I also think everyone in a fly should attend every fly in their area.
Maybe all the local clubs should require each flyer in a region to be judge on a rotating schedule. There would be a few exceptions, but this would get more guys in tune with each other as far as what to look for and what is scoreable.
I have no doubt that a small percentage of flys ends with the wrong kit being the winner. A small percantage. It is a shame it happens, but that is just the unfortunate side to a scoring system that is so very much opinion and visual speculation.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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gotspin7
1489 posts
Jul 19, 2008
4:27 AM
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I agree with Nick and Scott on this one!
I will a little to this as well..If you put enough roll up there regardless of who is judging you should do well, they will have to give it to you. I really do not care if they are tight or loose as long as they are equally tight and loose with everyone!
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Sal Ortiz
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sundance
644 posts
Jul 19, 2008
4:42 AM
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Sal, you hit the nail on the head. Bingo.!
Every judge Ive spent time with has said the same thing and thats exectly how I believe.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Scott
944 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:16 AM
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Actualy guys I don't agree at all, Dave is a 100 0/0 correct, consistancy by itself is like having a hollow egg,if the roll isn't right it should NOT be scored.
The problem with loose judges is that that they overinflate,pay little attention to depth, pay no atention to the birds actualy breaking together,pay little or no attention to quality and score birds rolling like culls instead of seperating the wheat from the chaff
And then here comes a real team of Birmingham Rollers, breaking crisp and clean with quality representitive of the breed , every point that was scored where there should not have been in other teams automaticly steals points from the good kits of the fly.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2008 11:51 AM
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Scott
945 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:29 AM
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(Scott, I agree. But who in their right mind wants to volunteer their time knowing someone will be in the background second guessing everything you do.)
When I'm judging I could care less Butch, I'm there to do a job, and that job is to put the best kits that are representive of the breed in the correct order, that is what I was asked to do so that is what I do.
It is not a job for the thin skinned,and the thin skinned judges make lousy judges as it will most surely influence his calls.
Myself I have never scored my birds for the fun of it, and it is rare that I even count my breaks.
Club flys are the best ways to get your feet wet judging,and I came from a very hardcore competitive club.
As for the judges themselfs, I have yet to see a judge not do the best job that he knew how, and once a judge has been asked to judge he is the judge,PERIOD , if he isn't a good one it isn't his fault.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1930 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:29 AM
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Excellent point sal..
RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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sundance
645 posts
Jul 19, 2008
10:15 AM
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As for the judges themselfs, I have yet to see a judge not do the best job that he knew how, and once a judge has been asked to judge he is the judge,PERIOD , if he isn't a good one it isn't his fault.
Scott, this was my point to begin with. I may had diluted that with a long winded rant, but it kinda burns my fuse a bit when most everyone here understands all the ins and outs of the judges job but some still wants to rub them in the dirt because they might of seen something different than the judge did. If someone dont like what the judge done , they, being the obvious experts, should buckle up and do it theirself next time.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Scott
947 posts
Jul 19, 2008
11:07 AM
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Butch,these days it just doesn't bother me, and trust me I have been slammed several time's, some guys ego just over rides everything else.
I have had more bad flys than good flys with a judge under them, but at least I know it and admit to it LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
2970 posts
Jul 19, 2008
3:07 PM
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Extremist are always wrong. Those that are extremely tight in thier judging and those that are extremely loose in thier judging. Neither one will give a true picture of what is actually occurring overhead with your kit. Both of them will dampen the spirit of flying competition.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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millsy55
97 posts
Jul 19, 2008
3:29 PM
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this game is about promoting a good quality roller how any one keeps raggy birds in there kits because they have rate and work in a fashon is beyond me it is the judge who has to b focused and not give these so called big breaks but us as a individual have the task to weed out all the sh## and fly the best birds all so so birds should b culled. and to the people who fly these rags and hope to win at all costs i feel sorry for you i would rather see one break out of a good kit than see your rags turn over an over doing so called breakes i personally would not mark them
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CSRA
1561 posts
Jul 19, 2008
5:23 PM
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Their is a standard we as humans always want to make up are own rules on how to judge we need try and find a system that will put all judges on the same page whether they agree or not
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sundance
650 posts
Jul 19, 2008
5:35 PM
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I agree with a training or certification process. The more I think about this I`m kinda curious about the panel of judges idea. I think Scott brought it up earlier.
I wonder if our local club would let the area I fly with and judge try this? 3 judges and then average the score? Or throw out the high and low score? If nothing else it might get all of us on the same page. We would learn from each other, maybe...
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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nicksiders
2973 posts
Jul 19, 2008
10:06 PM
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We don't have enough people now who will volunteer thier time and effort to judge. Now, to ask them to take more of thier time to get certified? Probably will not happen.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
955 posts
Jul 20, 2008
8:55 AM
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This certify thing has been on and off of the board for ever,the problem is what kind of judge would be doing the certifying
Honestly it works just fine the way it is, if a region wants a loose judge (which many do) they are out there.
If a region wants a much more quality judge (which many do also) they are out there also.
I would never change the way or what I judge to get certified because someone appointed says "yea score those also" , not even, I just couldn't do it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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