rollerman132
72 posts
Feb 17, 2007
11:27 PM
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Does keel length or pitch have any thing to do with the roll?
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nicksiders
1417 posts
Feb 18, 2007
1:12 AM
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I once thought so. My thinking was the shorter keels would be the better spinners. But, upon observing different casts I have seen just as many good spinners having the longer keel as I observed with the shorter keel.
One of my best kit birds right now is a long, tall, gangly looking affair. But, she does it all. I will not breed her because sho lacks the "look", but she will be in my kit box until she stops doing it or dies.
I prefer the short apple shaped body, but I am weakening on this requirement when I began to discover that the good spinners come in a lot of shapes and sizes.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2007 1:14 AM
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Flyin Hawaiian
17 posts
Feb 18, 2007
6:37 AM
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Thier is what I call a triangle that has to be met in order to create the vaporizing super cerelity type of rollers not saying if they covet this they will roll with this speed but if they are from a good source they will show you the goods. Take the bird and hold it with your thumb and index finger from the top position with one hand and look directly upon the bird. You should see a good triangle without having to little shoulder from point of wing butt area and chest. Thier are some that like the tubular types of rollers and in some families this type can work but I guarrantee you that the reason this is so in those families is because the bird is gifted with strong back muscle. Three things to remember is:
1. Width at the shoulder
2. Depth of keel
3. Total length from nape of neck to tip of tail
Now this may start some bleeding hearts but it is so that a roller must have balance. Yes thier are exceptions to the rule but we are dealing with the law of averages. Thier is a folcrum point on the bird which is the CG (center of gravity) This can determine the style in which the bird will diplay while rolling providing he or she has the internal motor to make it happen. Depth of keel coupled with length of keel and pectoral muscles and strong back muscle is essential to endure the highest velocity capable. Those who do not think that keel length and depth of keel have anything to do with rolling properly are lacking in experience. Try raising alot of shallow keeled birds and see where you end up. I'll save you the time an effort. You will have alot of high flyers and long flyers that come out of the box like wind up toys and shut down in a short amount of time. Been thier done it don't want to go back to it.The apple body to one guy may be the kiss of death to another. You want to understand how a keel should be designed to properly propell a bird in the roll the best teacher you could have is viewing and handling as many good spinners as you can and thier in and of itself will reveal to you what it takes to breed such a bird. This can get indepth but I'll leave it alone for another time. Gotta go take momma to breakfast at our favorite breakfast spot "Hales"
YITS Ivan
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motherlodelofts
1475 posts
Feb 18, 2007
7:26 AM
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I find that keel "shape" is far more important than length ,but then mine run pretty consistant anymore , and are niether to short or to long.
I want the Keel to hook in towards the vent,never flat, I'm with Ivan on shallow keeled birds but I don't want them too deep either, the same with the chest, I want a little width but not too wide.
I also like my birds with a little cast or length as it give's me smoothness in the roll , personaly I think speed is over rated when it comes to taking it over balance and smoothness in the roll , but to have both is ideal of coarse , if the balance isn't there though speed is the only thing that will keep it off of the cull list.
I think that short coby birds are more of a by product of what many think that they should look like to look like a spinner, they just seem to have a much "harsher" roll.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2007 7:27 AM
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Ballrollers
673 posts
Feb 18, 2007
7:37 AM
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Ivan,
If you don't mind, explain that triangle, again. Are you looking down on the top of the bird?
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1176 posts
Feb 18, 2007
8:06 AM
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Ivan, thank you.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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tapp
200 posts
Feb 18, 2007
8:32 AM
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Ivan ,Scott, This is good! I'm learning good stuff!!!! Scott you and I talked on this subject before. It's starting to sink in.
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Tapp
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Flyin Hawaiian
18 posts
Feb 18, 2007
8:43 AM
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Hi Cliff,
Yes that would be looking straight down on the birds back. Another term would be called "A Taper Wedge look". Heine is very privy to this angulation. Most of your better birds will have a 3 1/2 to 4 inch width at the shoulders and taper to the tip of tail at aproximately 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 inches from that point of shoulder to the tip of the tail with a 1/2 to 3/4 inch gap at end of wing to end of tail. Now taking the cross section of this an looking at a roller viewed from the side you can draw an imaginary line from the top of the birds back to the lowest point of the start of the keel and work the geometrical line to the tip of tail and down the back line this should measure up to just about the same as the aforementioned. Thiers where your preferred balance starts and ends on the good ones. This can very from family to family and how the birds have been bred.
Scotts observations on speed holds merit as velocity will cover up alot of flaws including bad style if viewed from the more becoming side LOL! Birds that have gaps where the keel ends have a harder time making it consistantly in thier second and third year should you keep them that long. They are just to physically weak to withstand any high velocity rolling over time. Hope this helped shed a little light on keel shapes and lengths.Guys its an important to remember this is not a machine we are discussing so you must use some common sense that each family of birds can work differrently genetically and physically but the basic structure of what constitutes a higher percentage remains the same.
Ivan
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Velo99
933 posts
Feb 18, 2007
9:37 AM
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Hey Ivan,
Mahalo brudda.
I think of the best shape as more of a teardrop look. Bird wants to be smooth and aerodynamic. I know the points you are talking about are very important in the balance of the bird. I agree also the smaller birds lack the physical aptitude to last more than a season or two. I just crossed that bridge and set a match to it on the other side.
kh
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Ballrollers
674 posts
Feb 18, 2007
12:50 PM
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Thanks Ivan,
That's the triangle I am most familiar with, too, but it's always good to revisit these basics. What do you prefer to see by way of chest muscling?
YITS,
Cliff
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