Flyin Hawaiian
51 posts
Feb 25, 2007
6:36 PM
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Hey Guys,
How much emphasis do you place on a pedigree? Is it what makes the bird? Is it what sells the product? Is it what gives you peace of mind? Whats in a pedigree is very simple it is a valuable tool providing it has a starting point of purity and an ending point delivered to you. The honesty in which it was made is the determining fact of truth and solidity!! Pedigrees are only as good as the guy who writes them up. Why do we feel that if we have a bird that comes from a famous bird that has produced many good birds that we have obtained a piece of the rock so to speak. Personally 514 was a great pigeon to which she laid more eggs than Carters produced pills. The question that comes to my mind is what ever became of 515 or 513 ever thought about that? Unless you have a pedigree that can be certified that all birds bred from start to finish were bred in IBP than you really don't have anymore than a guess as to the purity of the bird in which you now possess. Don't get me wrong I believe in pedigrees as a reference piece in which I use but i don't place all my apples in one basket and breed from pedigrees alone this can be a 3 step backwards process if you do. However I do like to know that what I am doing for my breeding program can refresh my CRS and get me focused on certain matings for the season. Pedigrees can be a good tool providing you understand that they don't make the bird any better than they are and just because they have the blood doesn't make them top gun either.Pedigrees have thier place but one must be careful in how they use them. JMHO
Ivan
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BEN the bird man
21 posts
Feb 25, 2007
6:48 PM
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I think a ped is a peace of paper that tells you who and what your bird comes from to me it does not mean a thing unless you want to know who breed your bird and in some cases it makes a diffrence on the birds sale but it really depends on the family or who is buying it
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Im the man in black
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1188 posts
Feb 25, 2007
6:59 PM
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Hey Ivan, this is an interesting post, eh? As for me, my pedigrees are a useful tool to assist me in keeping track of past and current matings of MY stock as well as a tool to plan and consider future matings. But it is only a piece of the puzzle. There are other important factors that go into selecting future stock.
I don’t consider a bird that was around 40 years ago to be relevant to my current breeding program at all especially in relation to my 903 foundation cock which IS relevant.
Saying that, I don’t mind if someone knows my birds are related in the distant past to a famous/successful bird (514). For me it is a passing fact when speaking about my family of Ruby’s or promoting them.
It is a fun piece of information, but after over a dozen years working on my family, IT IS ME who IS responsible for what’s in my loft today, not a pedigree. I am very pleased with what I have done with my rollers to date.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MILO
207 posts
Feb 25, 2007
7:20 PM
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Well, it is a tool for the most part. For me personally, they are a part of the history of the Birmingham Roller. To know the lineage of a roller, is like knowing the lineage of an human ancestor. It doesn't make the person any more special, it is simply a fun informative part of history. Right? A lot of people don't realize it, but by having your band or name on a pedigree has historical value. Look at Pensom, and so many others that have passed on... We are still talking about them. How about that for the value of a pedigree? There is something to be said about the origins of our birds, and the traditions we participate in. Don't ya think? That's what I love about these birds....I feel like I am part of something special. Makes me laugh when people think I am silly for having birds. They are so simple... If it doesn't make you money, or get you laid, then they figure it is a waste of time...LOL That is what sets us apart from the normal folks. What we do in the roller world, differentiates us from one another. The marks we leave on paper is all we have in the hobby after we are long gone. This isn't just the peds, but it's with the scoresheet too. JMO
c
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DHenderson
24 posts
Feb 25, 2007
8:00 PM
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Well a pedigree is a very important part of progressing a family of rollers. We have to keep accurate records of our birds so that we are able to move forwards regardless fo what anyone else thinks.
The pedigree is only important to the guy using it but as Ivan says some will use it as a selling point for moving a "product".
I have to admit that after having sent birds to more then a few over the years I still have old friends that will call and request birds from a specific line or bird to add to their existing stock. So I would suppose that some will breed for certain genetics in pigeons or at least introduce birds that are down from specific genetics based solely on what others say about them. You can take this for what you want.
I think that most are very honest and forth coming on the birds they have to most, especially the ones who are using "our" birds and if we weren't straight up then most would figure it out before long.
I do have to admit that if you are a perspective buyer and request specific birds that you will get what you ask for, good or bad?
The main concern should be to obtain the best that is vailable to you from the person you want them from.
This forum is very postive in communicating to the Roller World and if you want bird some such and such then go right ahead and give it a shot.
I would suggest to anyone that wants to put in honest effort on a line of birds keep the "gathering" to a minimum and show the birds justice and no matter what the pedigree is you need to start your own line of birds down form whatever you have to work with.
The pedigrees are not that important but keeping and selecting the best spinners is. But you must keep good accurate records or you will not be able to maintain them as a good family.
Granted if you only select the best spinners you will have the goods but builting a line of rollers will demand good record keeping.
best of luck to all this season
Dave
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2007 8:03 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1214 posts
Feb 25, 2007
8:07 PM
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As has been stated, pedigrees have their place. Personally they don't mean much to me, and whenever I hear someone talking more about the pedigree than the pigeon itself, or the pair from which it came, I am always sceptical. I don't choose to bath myself in roller history as it pertains to the birds I raise. I believe the impact of a pigeon is lost by the fourth generation.
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Santandercol
808 posts
Feb 25, 2007
8:33 PM
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I need a pair of Superman glasses to read the damn things,whereas my regular goggles suffice to see birds spin and kit.I originally aquired my birds from the guys in my area who have the best spinners.Now my job is to keep good records and watch my birds.Oh yeah,almost forgot!!Enjoy them too!!
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Kelly
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luis
197 posts
Feb 25, 2007
9:46 PM
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Dependant on the integrity of the breeder,the ped is an important tool of ascesment.It's important info on a birds lineage for those who value the purity of their lines.Again the breeders honesty is most important when it comes to peds!Few of my birds have them so i simply follow the roll and type.
I breed strictly out of pens and keep records on all my birds and pairings.I'm fairly new to the roller and hope that in a few years through strict selection,i will have the exact type of roller i want.
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2007 8:44 AM
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MILO
208 posts
Feb 25, 2007
10:08 PM
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One more thing...if you breed open loft...they are absolutely worthless...LOL
c
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nicksiders
1427 posts
Feb 25, 2007
11:24 PM
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I breed from an open loft, but I do keep records so that I can evaluate my breeders. I want to know what pairing are producing what kind of spinner. It is only good for me. Will not have any value for anybody else. I do not offer any pedigrees nor do I ask for them.
I can "make up" any pedigree I want and so can anybody else. Not all people are honorable if they where we would have no need for contracts or most lawyers.
Whats His Face
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Snicker Rollers
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3757
110 posts
Feb 25, 2007
11:25 PM
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Ivan - For me it is important in this aspect and this is for figuring out probability. I keep accurate records and have bred in individual pens for 35 years. Herb Sparkes also breeds in individual pens and Bruce Cooper bred his 4013 in an individual Pen to the various hens for the same reason. I do not think personally it is for sales (maybe for some like a famous guy who recently passed away). If you were to use him as an example then pedigrees were certainly for sales. Most individuals that I know do not breed in individual pens and in this case the pedigree means nothing to me because of probability as well. Statistical data is very important. As for 514. Many guys do not do research and only rely on what they have heard. George Whitney's records reveal many siblings of 514 who were as good of better. Only a few know that 514 were bred by George Whitney from a pair loan to him from Bill Pensom. The parents were not even bred by Bill. How many people besides me have this information on a pedigree? I have seen pedigrees that list a Blue check cock and Hen that produced a tort? This is impossible. So I value accuracy and use a statistical chart for probability.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:47 AM
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nicksiders
1429 posts
Feb 25, 2007
11:42 PM
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DR LD,
I have notes all over my paperwork about who, what, where, and how.
Wick
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Snicker Rollers
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Mongrel Lofts
272 posts
Feb 26, 2007
1:27 AM
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Ivan,
I guess 513 and 515 didn't make the stock loft! LOL where are the progeny off 799 and 801? LOL Here is another thing. Purity can mean two different things to the roller breeder. If one breeds in an open loft or Birmingham rollers, Pedigree accuracy for parentage could be in question but purity of breed would not.
Kelly, what is a pedigree if not a record? That is all a pedigree is to a breeder. A record of breeding and background.
I would question any loft of Birmingham rollers that didn't care about background and good record keeping? I guess if you have a swallow 5 generations in the records, you wouldn't care much about putting that in the pedigree,,LOL Its just a record of background and heritage.. Just my honest opinion,, KGB
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3757
111 posts
Feb 26, 2007
7:53 AM
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Kenny – Great post. I agree with you but I would like to add a little more to the purity of breed issue. I recently watch a video of a famous breeder who had a white bar in his open loft. This same individual sent birds up North that were crossed into another famous line. To me, I would question his integrity.
Nick - Also ask why? This is why Herb and I are so close. We both can tell you everything about the birds on our pedigrees (Why stocked, performance, time the bird came into the roll etc) I feel this is a good tool for the breeder and good background information for those who are starting out with a particular family that has this information available.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:48 AM
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motherlodelofts
1487 posts
Feb 26, 2007
8:24 AM
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Oh the pedigree , pedigree can work for you or against you, I would say for many (if not most) it works against them.
The reason being is they use it to determine thier pairings, and it is easy to do, I've done it myself,once I found that for performance it doesn't work I quit doing it.
For myself I won't write a pedigree to someone unless a particular bird become's valuable within thier stock loft.
I want them to figure out what works and doesn't work without any outside interferance.
As for my own loft , I have individules within the loft (30x24x 18 high ) and anymore I refuse to keep them locked in them past the first round , I care more for the well being of the stock , plus, only my family is allowed into the main loft , and my family is a developed family both prior and with what I'm working which I consider my own which go back to just a few birds.
I don't bounce in other birds from outside of my line, as for purity , this confused alot of new guys and color breeders , the fact is serious flyers and breeders won't allow in birds from questionable lofts , for one there is absolutly no reason to , nor should you ever.
On the other end of the spectrum if a breeder keeps bringing up long gone birds and the purity of his birds to those and or their pedigrees have "champian" written all over it , LOOK OUT !
The most important birds in my loft go back to a few select birds , and if you look behind those there is a common thread , but it's past that now.
And the further I progress down the line the further they are pulling away from that common thread.
Someone else can be breeding birds out of that common thread and unless they were the right ones it means nothing , but even if it is working they are still pulling away from what is in my loft as there will be genetic differances.
As for the piece of paper called a pedigree , yes I have them and they go way back and I think that they are important records , but they are not of value in my loft as the key to my birds is either retired (in fertile) or sitting in the breeding loft.
Also , if you go back to every major loft in the country including the Niebles you will find that the apple didn't fall far from the same three , these families are all branches off of the same tree which go back to Pensoms core family.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2007 9:08 AM
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Alohazona
243 posts
Feb 26, 2007
9:06 AM
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I personally have done alot better with the pedigrees put away.Having said that,I'm not trying to develop my own strain,but to refine the familys I have to what I like in the air,as well as a good longlasting healthy performer.When I have for some reason looked at my peds,I have always been pleasantly surprised by a notation.I like to have that information to refer to .My more recent aquisitions for stock were without peds..Most important is the notations you make personally about your birds,more likely than not they will mean something different to some one else.Reproducing a good one that is gone ,is no easy task,and one of the biggest challenges with rollers no matter how you fly 'um for pleasure or competitively....Aloha,Todd
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Flyin Hawaiian
52 posts
Feb 26, 2007
1:51 PM
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for your input I think each one of you have valid points and I think the point I was trying to make was that one shouldn't breed by pedigree only and I believe it was Scott that brought that out in his post. Its easy to look at a pedigree based upon its lineage and try to make that combo work when in essence thiers more to pairing off your birds than just the paper. Pheno type has to be considered along with temperament of the bird itself. You can have them related and depending upon who the breeder was they can have opposite ends of temperament. Dosial vs flighty to one breeder it isn't an issue and to another its the first thing on thier list they cull for LOL! We have all fallen subject to the pedigree breedings and most of the time we fail by doing so. I hope you guys didn't read me wrong because I am a pedigree freak at times just for the same reasons L.D and Milo want them for authenticity and nostalgia. I have a couple of guitars that are limted editions and thier aren't worth much unless I have the papers that match up with the number inside the guitar LOL! By the way Kenny 801 is in my stock loft he is the daddy to the ee cock Dave S has from me. LOL but on the other hand 799 was a toy stencil LMAO! Thanks guys for the input.
Ivan
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Velo99
951 posts
Feb 27, 2007
3:37 PM
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Pedigrees have thier place I agree. Think along this line for a minute. Two guys can have the same bird. One guy can get it rolling well and one guy gets only moderate performance.
Different management styles can affect over the long term the performance of a strain of birds. If one has birds from a certain line who is to say at some point a bad manager wasn`t in control of the family or a substrain of it. Even with a pedigree, best to best performance based pairing still should be the norm.
jmho
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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