slove
17 posts
Mar 03, 2007
8:06 PM
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Hey Guys, just wondering how long you fly your
young rollers before you give up on them and cull
them? Just Curious, DJ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1240 posts
Mar 03, 2007
8:20 PM
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Depends on a lot of things. A bird that won't kit right within a month or so of flying is down the road quick.
A bird that is acting up because of the roll, I'll watch for a month or so and if it doesn't get any better, its down the road.
Birds that come in hot, I will feed up and work with them if they show some progress and look like they will get over it.
Early landers or birds that start to not want to fly, they get one chance to be fed up, after that, if they do it again...down the road.
Stiffs I'll keep flying as long as they aren't a problem. Once they hit about 10-12 months old and I haven't seen anything from them, they are down the road.
Cocky birds that act up in the kit are shot on when they get within range...lol
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Santandercol
828 posts
Mar 03, 2007
10:06 PM
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Brian,
When you say a cocky bird that acts up,exactly what do you mean by "acting up"?How far can you let them go in acting like they want to breed?----------
Kelly
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Missouri-Flyer
314 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:36 AM
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Hey Kel,
In my eyes, a bird that is to cocky is one that sits on the roof after flying,chasing hens instead of trapping, even when fed right. The type that will be the last one in..Jerry
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Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Flyin Hawaiian
70 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:46 AM
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Kit pigeons here get the three strikes your out rule! Evaluating them based on thier behaviours must be assessed by asking the question of wether or not its a physical problem or a mental problem (big differrence). The sooner you nip the problem in the bud the better for you and the kit in which the bird was part of. Rollers are creatures of habit and once they begin to realise that they can get thier way wih you than they will. Thats when you have to be the one in control and show them who the boss is.Below is a short list of problems that one might face.
1. Non Kitter
2. Non Flyer
3. Bumper
4. Flyng above the kit
5. Early landing
6. non flyer or lazy
7. Mad tumbler
8. flying below the kit
9. Slow roller (no velocity)
10 Stiff
Thier is alot more problems to add to this list but these are the ones that you will encounter the most in a young bird kit and must be savy enough to evaluate wether its a true cull or wether the bird is going through a developmental time in its pigeon life.When you fly cosexed kits and you get the aggressive cock that matures quickly you will have some disruption within the team and with these types of cocks they will single out a mate and want to drive them out of the kit and on the roof of the loft. Those types of cock birds I usually seperate out and put them with the stiffs or and all cock kit. Some of the best cock birds you will find in your kit box are the ones that are perching at the mid level or below. Remember to use your God gifted Common Sense and don't let the problem become a habit but by all means you have to cull the obvious. How long and when is only determined by you.
Ivan
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Velo99
960 posts
Mar 04, 2007
6:16 AM
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I start taking a hard look at my birds between 10-12 months. First,the ones Ivan described usually haven`t made it to this stage. By now most of the birds I have in my kit do perform to some degree. At this point in kit building it is important to have the best,the absolute best,in your kit.
Start with the back of pack rollers. Then the one or two that just dont seem to be a part of the team or maybe they are just a bit rowdy and disruptive. Weaving in and out, turning the kit etc.Leave the ones who are doing it just right. From there it is a matter of degree and how hard you want to cull.
It is a revolving door for me. What was good last year might be crap this year if my pairings are on the money. I dump enough birds to make room for the incoming squeaks. That is my benchmark for culling each season. I usually end up with 10-12 old birds.
Are you looking for,quality,speed or depth at this point? If you have one or more of these qualities in your kit,build on the ones you don`t have.
Always remember: garbage in garbage out. Breed to shore up your weaknesses til you get them where you want them then foster as many as you can.
jmho
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Ballrollers
692 posts
Mar 04, 2007
12:09 PM
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Ivsn,
I'd like to see you prioritize that list as to which ones you might put up with the longest in order to give the bird a chance to mature through it. The hardest ones for me to decide on are those coming into a lot of roll, leaving the kit sometimes, flying below the kit sometimes...sometimes is the key! Some of them have truned into culls, some have gained control and turned into decent kit birds, and some have actually become stiffs!
YITS,
Cliff
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MILO
231 posts
Mar 04, 2007
12:21 PM
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That's a great point Cliff. My initial thoughts on this...
1. Non Kitter (#1 The absolute most important, I will pull a head in a heartbeat if I see it.)
2. Non Flyer (#2 I will cull on third day if no improvement.)
3. Bumper (#9 Can work itself out. Rest a week and retry, then if it continues, gone.)
4. Flyng above the kit (#3 This spells disaster where I live, I've culled some great spinners with this trait.)
5. Early landing (#4 Hate it)
6. Non flyer or lazy (#5 Hate it I will cull on 3rd day)
7. Mad tumbler (#6 It is a real bad sign, usually doesn't correct itself.)
8. Flying below the kit (#7 Bad, but don't mind it)
9. Slow roller (no velocity)- (These can clean up, but if it shows signs of no improvement within few days of development of full roll, toast.)
10 Stiff (#10 - If you arent doing something by month 6, you are toast.)
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Ballrollers
693 posts
Mar 04, 2007
1:00 PM
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Interesting Milo,
My list would probably fo like this:
1. Non flying. If I can't get them in the air, they go in the ground!
2. Lazy flying. Same as above as far as I am concerned.
3.Non-kitters. I will tolerate it a short time if the bird is coming into the spin and is working hard...as long as it is not having impact on other birds.
4.Flying below the kit. This usually turns into 1,2, or 3 very soon.
5. Flying above the kit. Again, I will tolerate it for awhile, but they are usually fast flyers and stiff and won't last long if it continues.
6.Mad Tumblers. It depends on how mad and how often!
7. Slow Rollers. Again, depending on how slow, how deep, how frequent, and other quality issues.
8. Stiffs. Depends on the age. I'll give them 9-12 months to show something.
9. Early landers. If all else is excellent, I tolerate it longer and look real hard at what I may be doing to contribute to the problem. If this in in combination with other faults, it dooms them sooner.
10. Bumpers. I tolerate this the longest in the kit...again, depending on frequency, speed, depth etc.,especially if it is bumping when landing. I don't cull for it, necessarily, if they have many other performance qualities going for them, but they won't make it into the stock lift.
My priorities change a little with age of the birds of course. Up to age 6 months, I cull for #1-3. Age 6-9 months I am looking at #4-6. And at 9-12 months, #7-10.
YITS,
Cliff
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nicksiders
1434 posts
Mar 04, 2007
1:53 PM
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1. Non-kitters. This includes the ones who fly above or below the kit. Nothing happens if they don't first kit and then sling shots back to the kit. A non-flyer is also a non-kitter.
2. Early landing
3. Stiff
4. Mad tumbler
5. Slow roller
6. Bumper. If it bumps every time it moves up on the list. If it occasionally bumps I may tolerate if it does everything else well.
I will not have 10 due to the enlargement of the non-kitting catagory.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 1:55 PM
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parlorfancier916
263 posts
Mar 04, 2007
1:56 PM
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well birds that do an unwanted trait for a month I'm culling it, for example, landing in trees, not flying, rolldown, not kitting...
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MILO
238 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:29 PM
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A month is a long time for any of these things I think...
Especially when they can spread the tendencies to the others.
c
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1242 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:58 PM
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Kelly, but acting up I mean a bird that is trying to control the kit, or does things in the kit that is a distraction to both me and them. A bird that cuts from the back to the front clapping its wings, popping out in front of the kit, doing everything but kit and roll. It doesn't have to be a cock either. I've had a few hens that would do that.
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MILO
241 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:59 PM
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B.
I love those wing clappers, I could blow them right out of the air when I see that...LOL
c
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slove
18 posts
Mar 05, 2007
12:57 AM
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Thanks everyone for all the information. I just wanted to know sorta how everybody else culled their birds. I usually keep my birds 10-12months as long as they are showing improvement. Thanks again and keep enjoying your birds. DJ
PS Sorry to hear about your loss Nick just keep your head up and keep flying DJ
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Santandercol
838 posts
Mar 05, 2007
6:28 AM
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Thanks Brian,
I know I need to pull some birds but the damn preds won't give me a chance to observe them properly yet.Hopefully by the end of March we'll get some clear skies around here.
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Kelly
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Flyin Hawaiian
75 posts
Mar 05, 2007
1:16 PM
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Cliff and List,
Sorry to keep you hanging so long but I finally got some time to respond. First of all the mentality of any performance minded roller breeder and flyer should be never compromise an envitable! When you do you end up with a lackluster stock pen that produces you what you think you saw but not what actually happened. You cannot hide faults or cover them up. I have said it before and I'll repeat it again your stock loft is only as good as the last bird you culled. Joe Houghtons statement is one everyone should adhere to."Anyone can have perfection if thier standards are low enough"
Cliff out of that short list I would have to say the the bird that I would tolerate the longest and wait on would be the straight flyer as long as he or she doesn't disrupt the kit.The least tolerated in my books is the out flyer don't have any second thoughts about those types."If they don't kit they aint s&*t" Compromising those out flyers just because they can roll correctly and take the long way around to get to the kit is the worst thing you can do. Like breeds like!! Keep in mind these faults that occur in our birds during thier developmntal stage are geared to the mental part of the bird alone. Its called being poessed by the roll rather than possessing the roll thus out flying, tree sitting, bumping, rolling down and a few more that can be accounted for as well. I hope the puts some light on the subject. Culling is necessary but knowing when and how is crucial.
Ivan
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Electric-man
1796 posts
Jul 05, 2008
11:47 AM
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Good thread! thought that I would bring it back around!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2008 11:49 AM
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Shaun
681 posts
Jul 05, 2008
2:35 PM
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It is a good thread, but I have mixed feeling about some aspects. I used to think that so long as non-rollers or infrequent rollers didn't otherwise cause a problem, they could stay in the kit, usually to see if they were late developers. I've changed my way of thinking and find it easier to live with a sloppy roller, or a mere tumbler, until the time comes to give up on it. The reason is that the stiffs drag the kit around at too fast a pace, whilst at least the dishrags are trying to roll and become part of the breaks, so the kit dynamic is there.
Shaun
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sippi
365 posts
Jul 05, 2008
8:30 PM
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Non kitters are what get the first free ride to the bird man. I consider a bird above or below the kit a nonkitter. I dont mind the others as long as they dont disrupt the kit. I have an extra loft that all the culls get tossed into. they stay there a month or two and I get them out and try them again. If they repeat thier wrong doing then they are culled. Roost space makes a big difference too. If I have plenty I will tolerate them longer than if the boxes are getting full.
sippi
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tou_vang
297 posts
Jul 05, 2008
11:00 PM
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what do you guys mean by stiff?
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nicksiders
2917 posts
Jul 05, 2008
11:55 PM
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A stiff is a bird who does not roll or is grossly non-frequent.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Bill C
102 posts
Jul 05, 2008
11:58 PM
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I really like all this advice and I am going to use it more at my loft from now on. But I have one exception here. I love those stiffs. Yes you heard me right. If you have the time to fly them, space to house them, and grain to feed them. They turn out to be some darn good rollers in the next year or second year. I know you think they will make you more late developers but they produce early developing birds just as early dev. birds will also thow you some late dev. birds. They will all come into the roll if you fly them long enough. Those late ones have good homing instinct to survive all those years ( 2 years ) and the way I figure it. I have some birds now to train in July and they will get locked up about November and I will start flying them again in late Feb or early March and then we will be raising some more squeakers and they never got the time in flying like the first round. So they actually will be stiff for a longer period if not flown as much but they do come into the roll in time. I really like hold over birds for an A team. I never use 5 or 6 month rollers in the A team anymore. You don't have to breed from them anyway. Wish I could take all your stiffs but I have plenty and keep three kit boxes just for hold over birds 2 and 3 years old. The hawks will take a few and I still have some that make the A team and by next year I should have some three and four year old birds in my kit now for the first time. I always like the new yearlings and how they just look like a good team of rollers but those holdover birds are what I really like. Dependable. BIll C
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sippi
366 posts
Jul 06, 2008
7:28 PM
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I had a fellow tell me he had on come into roll at five years. Dont know if I could feed one that long. With the price of feed I wont feed one near as long as I would have. I did feed one for three years one time just to see and he never did roll. He was good in the kit though and would fly just as slow as any kit bird.
Sippi
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CVRC
173 posts
Jul 06, 2008
10:04 PM
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What do u guys have to say on a bird that rolls real good but doesnt kit very well?? Its only about 4 months. What should i do??
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Cristian Castro
CM Loft
CVR
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