Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1215 posts
Mar 07, 2007
7:06 PM
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Hey Stan, I got jumped for my 80% comment. I wonder if anyone really understood what I meant. Probably not, they got stuck on 80. I just realize more now than before, we are all at different levels and planes of understanding, knowledge and experience.
When I was a kid, I was accused by my friends of using big word they didn't understand. I used to feel bad about it and thought something was wrong with me.
I grew up, I still get accused of it. Now I wonder what's wrong with them.
When we continue to learn and grow and stretch, the new ideas and concepts we gain forever changes they way we see the world and how we relate to it.
Some people have a hard time with new concepts and learning new ways. And some already know it all.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 7:07 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1216 posts
Mar 07, 2007
7:12 PM
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Hey Scott, mine do to. I just got my A-Team in the air after a 4 month layoff for fall and winter, flying like racing homers with little performance, but its coming. My B-Team which today has been the third day out, acts like they don't know how to kit, but its coming too.
The World Cup is my goal this spring and its coming too. I better get these birds ready...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mongrel Lofts
277 posts
Mar 07, 2007
8:47 PM
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I have been reading this thread with amazement.. I have seen thousands of birds in the air over the last 30 years. I have been at many of the top lofts in this country and can tell you for sure, I have never seen any loft that produced 80% good rollers. At least not what I would consider good.. Just my opinion of course, but I agree with Otis, if you set the bar low enough, they are all good. I have met many that think if it rolls, its good.. If that's the standard, then I guess 80% good ones is rather low!! Wayne, who do you know over in the UK that breeds 80% good rollers? 8 good rollers out of 10. I could believe 10 rollers out 10 but 8 good ones,, I guess we have to get a grip on what a good one is? KGB
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motherlodelofts
1521 posts
Mar 07, 2007
8:59 PM
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Kenny that is with 55 pairs ,the only competion would be your own second team.
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 9:08 PM
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Frankie
136 posts
Mar 07, 2007
9:33 PM
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So what a few of you are saying on here if you are a back yard flyer and you do not compete you can not have good birds.That is BS! A person does not have to compete to have good birds. There could be any number of reasons why a person chooses not to compete. I can not speak for Stan but for me I can at this point and time in my life I could have the best rollers in the world and I still would not want to compete I am not trying to get back into rollers to compete I am trying to get back into rollers to enjoy them sit back in the yard and watch them fly and do their thing. I thought we was suppose to be learning from others and I was just wondering what we were learning. What difference does it make if Stans birds or anybodies birds can do what they say they can do or not? It doesn't unless they are trying to sell them to you.then you either buy it or you don't. Bickering over it is not going to change anything. Can we all just get along lol Frankie
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 10:17 PM
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Velo99
970 posts
Mar 08, 2007
5:03 AM
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Guys,
I find it amusing that this thread took the turn it did. The scope of the original was all in fun. Then good ol Stan had to come in and state the obvious,and get in a comment about how great his birds are which went the way it always does. Then the new guys have to jump in who haven`t been here to see this pattern repeat itself once again.
Stan started this same old line of crap in Novemer of 2004. Look it up in the archives. Sometimes I think he just copy/pastes his comments from previous posts. He has had plenty of time and offers to pay for his entry fees and involve him in the WC or any competetion. Every courtesy has been offered to Stan on numerous occasions but he still REFUSES to fly his birds in competetion. He wants to go on his 20 year old record.
Put em up Stan.
Wise up new guys.
jmho
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Sourland
87 posts
Mar 08, 2007
6:29 AM
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Amen, Kenny, another fun thread turned into crap. No surprise.
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W@yne
295 posts
Mar 08, 2007
8:51 AM
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Guys
Chill its my nature and how I've been brought up to always respect my elders i don't think there is anything wrong with that guys. Disrespecting older guys is not my style. I am not saying Stan fly champion rollers nor am i saying he flys bad rollers I cant comment because I've never seen um or know anyone that has seen Stans birds on several occasions. If there is any one that has seen Stans birds fly please speak up n lets put all this bickering to rest.?? But its so easy to kick a guy in the balls when hes already down meaning Stan seems like hes on his own on this site for some reason and i think that is so unfair guys. Kenny Lol if i knew a flyer over here that bred 80% good rollers i would be camping outside his home in the big queue that would already be there waiting for my turn to buy his birds.
Regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 8:57 AM
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nicksiders
1447 posts
Mar 08, 2007
9:13 AM
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"Do you mind people grinning in your face?" by Gov. Mule
Wayne you owe nobody an explanation or clarification; you have always been a gentleman. Stan is often on his own because I believe he likes it that way. He is right on in alot of what he says, but I believe he has forgotten to put his teeth back in when he begins to mumble stuff about his birds....nobody understands him so he looses his support. Nobody's birds are as good as Stan says his are.
Now he is mad at us because many of us take exception to his "grinning in our faces" as he leads us on. I enjoy having Stan in here and don't want him to go away, BUT DAMN IT STAN, STOP GRINNING IN OUR FACE. Admit to some down side in some of your birds every once in a while and maybe many of us won't jump ya when we see ya coming.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 9:32 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1217 posts
Mar 08, 2007
10:07 AM
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Correct me if I am misunderstanding something, but it sounds to me like what many fanciers believe is that breeding good rollers is really just a roll of the dice where the odds are just about a 20% chance of breeding a good one? The challenge then is to identify the 20% of good ones and cull the rest?
I might go along with this in an open loft where the pigeons picked their own mates and the quality of the family was good to start, but when a fancier exerts his control over the process of selection, over the years, he should be "setting" desirable traits in his family and the numbers (percentages) of good birds should increase from 20% to 30%,40%,50%,60%,70%,80%, not stay the same (20%).
Has nothing to do with lowering standards, but really just knowing your family of birds and selecting and setting the traits you pick for your family. Here is how I see it:
+12-------CHAMPION-------
+11----------------------
+10----------------------
+9----Very Good Roller---
+8-----------------------
+7-----------------------
+6------GOOD ROLLER------
+5-----------------------
+4-----------------------
+3-----Average Roller----
+2-----------------------
+1-----------------------
0-Below Average Roller--
-1-----------------------
-2-----------------------
This is just a visual representation of how I "judge" my birds. This scale can be applied individually to each trait you want to set in your birds:
>Roll
>Velocity
>Depth
>Control
>Type
>Kitting
>Frequency
>Other???
The only caveat is you must be working with 1 line of quality stock. The family has to have the traits you want already in the gene-pool. You must manage with a goal in mind (breeding toward the Ideal Birmingham Roller as you understand it).
Taking the "20% only" paradigm to heart will ensure that you never have enough (due to losses and selecting the wrong ones to keep) good rollers around to establish and maintain your family.
In my view, you must set the traits you want and always work forward: increasing the propensity of the trait you want to show up more often in the pairs you select. If you can't do this, then it's all luck.
Either you have the ability to influence the results or you don't. If you do, then only the individual can decide where "the wall" is for him.
He can believe those who tell him its only 20% or he can think for himself and figure out how he can breed better rollers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
1527 posts
Mar 08, 2007
10:20 AM
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Tony, if everyone culled all but say the best ten percent regardless they would move much further ahead , if most culled half of thier stock they would also move much further ahead.
Just so that there is no confusion, I do get birds and pairs that produce very high percentages , as does Kenny.
But trying to get a full stock loft doing it all at once is the kicker, percentages will even change with high producing pairs from year to year, good one's quit laying or slow down or fertilty tapers due to age , trying to proove out others (which takes no less than two years), it is never ending and a constant moving target.
Just like building a great team, over flys,hawked , ect. just when you think that you are getting close something happens.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 1:42 PM
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nicksiders
1453 posts
Mar 08, 2007
7:39 PM
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In every champion bird there are the genetics of things less than a champion. In other words I have had truly outstanding spinners who produced a lot of junk no matter who I have paired 'em with. That is the same reason why Michael Jordon's kids may not be worth a flip as basketball players. Dick Musial could never hit worth a damn, so he ran track in the spring and was not that fast either. Speck's offspring were disappointing; everyone of them. I don't buy into 100%; 90%; 80%; or even 70% successful offspring. Some years it may be 80%, but the next year it may be less than 50% with the same pairings.
I think there is some "grinning" going on.
On any given year how many of the 60 birds you breed do you keep? Make it a 100 if it is easier for ya. Don't factor in the BOP takes.
No grinning, now!
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Otis
7 posts
Mar 09, 2007
6:21 AM
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Hey Kenny, Your right, I did go back and found out about the verbal carnage that ensued in many decently intended posts once Stan's boasting had turned the post into a claim and refute session. There are guys who get off on one-upping everyone else in words. I have been on this list thru all of that and am not a newbie to this list or rollers, just back under a new name because the other failed to allow me entry. Milo's cartoon says it all. Dave, the bowed wing red badge looks the right type and then some, I've never had much success with the spindly bodied, high strung look like the white. Thanks for the great pics! Otis
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