luis
221 posts
Mar 14, 2007
10:45 PM
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I know this topic has been discussed in a thread or 2 but i'm short on time!I have a squeak that has this problem.I read somewhere that you can cut the webs on the feet.How do i cut it and w/what instrument?What causes this?Never had it before!
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JMHD
159 posts
Mar 14, 2007
11:15 PM
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Luis it's caused by inbreeding you can cut with a one sided blade very easy with no problem.
John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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luis
222 posts
Mar 15, 2007
12:07 AM
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Do i cut down the middle or along the edge of the toes?Do i need to sterilize the blade or apply anything to the toes of the bird after its done?Can i do it now or wait till the squeaker gets older(about 10 days old)????????Sorry a lot of ??????Thanks for your help.
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Steve_uk
102 posts
Mar 15, 2007
12:24 AM
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Is there really any point in cutting the birds feet if it doesnt effect it dont put it through uneeded pain.
Steve
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1671
3 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:14 AM
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AN ARTICLE ON WEB FOOT FROM PIGEON GENETICS
Web Foot
www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/
Not every mutation we find in pigeons is necessarily something we want in our own stud of birds. While mutations may be interesting from a scientific point of view -( they often allow us to map a chromosome, i.e., figure out the position of any particular gene along that chromosome) , the simple fact is as breeders we often want no part of a particular mutation. Usually our reasoning is merely show or performance related. For example, no breeder of standard fantails wants muffs on his birds. They would be disqualified at the shows. No racing homer breeder wants the giant balloon crop of the Norwich Cropper, such a the bird couldn't race. No Bokhara Trumpeter breeder wants anything to do with an English Pouter's long legs, etc.
Sometimes, though, there are other reasons why we don't want the mutation in our stud. Perhaps, the mutation has a severe health or physical problem associated with it. Web foot (genetic symbol w, a rather rare condition, is one of these mutations - here, I have to mention the fact that in some heavily muffed breeds such as Trumpeters, Swallows and Wing Pigeons, web foot may actually be advantageous (in the breed milieu) because it allows for better feather hold in the muff. I've been told this by one breeder of heavily muffed birds but have no direct experience with it and don't know whether this is true or not. For most breeds, though, web foot is definitely a no-no. Web foot is just what its name implies, a condition in which the toes are joined by a web of skin. In a duck or other waterfowl, this is normal, in a pigeon it's not. Web foot expression ranges from birds having tiny amounts of skin between their toes to birds whose toes are joined from the base to the tip. In some of these cases, the webbing is not wide enough for the toes to spread normally and they are clamped together - as if your first three fingers were tied together. Birds like this have a lot of trouble walking normally. Many breeders, who often first note the webbing when they band the birds at about ten days, simply take a blade and cut through the skin thus loosening the toes and allowing the bird to develop and walk normally. Breeders who do this have told me, they also usually use something like a styptic pencil (a coagulant agent used by men when they cut themselves shaving) to stem any excessive bleeding. While this procedure is kinder to the bird in the long run, it doesn't dispose of the basic problem even though many believe it does. Web foot seems to be a simple recessive mutation - (whether that's totally true or not is still open for debate). That means for web foot to show up in a youngster, both parents must be at least heterozygous for the trait. You can cut the web; you can dispose of the youngster but you'll still have the heterozygous parents or others in the loft. A homozygous web foot bird can be used as a tester if you'd like. Simply pair birds to it and if after a reasonable number of rounds you don't get any more web footed youngsters, you can fairly safely assume the tested bird is free of the mutation for web foot and it can be used in your breeding program. Conversely, if web footed babies are hatched, it means the tested bird is heterozygous for the trait and you can choose to dispose of it or use it with care. If you use it in your breeding program, you'll have to test all it's non web footed young to see if they're clear of the trait. A bit time consuming but a way of clearing your stud of something you don't want -- the same procedure could be used to clear crest carrying birds from a breed, say Oriental Rollers, which is supposed to be non-crested.
P.S. It ain't a good idea to have mice in the loft either, no matter how cute they are.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 1:19 AM
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JMHD
160 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:54 AM
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Luis cut down the middle i would just use a new blade and put some hydroperoxide after as far as age iv'e done it at about 2 weeks old. As far is pain the blade is very sharp and that skin is thin so not as bad as you may think plus he will look better. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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motherlodelofts
1560 posts
Mar 15, 2007
8:35 AM
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I don't cut anymore , I want to know that the bird has web feet to insure that I don't stock it.
It is ressesive, and if you aren't careful it will take over , and it can get to the point of toes that are welded together giving them almost a club foot.
I have a nice hen in the A team that is heavily web toed, she will never see stock due to it.
Scott
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MILO
250 posts
Mar 15, 2007
9:10 AM
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Interesting post.
Timely too, as I am facing similar issues. I remember back years ago, when I first got into the 272 birds and saw a LOT of web. Almost seemed that the very best from the line always had it, and in some cases to an almost handicapping degree. I remember a particular (unnamed)loft in Santa Cruz and seeing it ALL OVER. Same family these days seems to have a lot less. At any rate, I have a really good hen that has it on both outer toes, where the web goes all the way to the base of the toenail but doesn't quite curl. Also, the toes are pinched together, unlike the spread webbing of a duck. That web I think is the worst form. Besides having the web, she is a model breeder in all regards. So, I have chosen to breed her, and unfortunatley find myself having to breed around her. At some point I would like to breed a replacement for her, but up until now, have only put away a cockbird (non-webbed obviously) off her. I bred her to many cocks in the loft and got similar results: In most cases, when bred to a non-carrier, she has produced 2 out of 10 webbed birds. I think that is an acceptable rate given her degree of webbing. This year, feeling even a greater need to replace her and a newfound liking for her son, I have put her on him(non-webbed). Yes, a 3/4 mating of a webbed bird. The son however, was somewhat of an "in family" outcross. So none of that particular mating had any webbing at all. So to get to the point, as I know you are waiting...lol The first round off the 3/4 mating has two very slightly webbed youngsters, and only on one side (the left foot). What I find fascinating about the web is that in this family, it seems to start from the left, and as the trait spreads, follows to the right and so on. Webbing in my opinion has no black or white identifiers, but rather "Degrees" of webbing. A lot of the genetic discussions I hear or read is too cut and dry with regards to this subject. What I'm getting at is a recessive red is either a recessive red, or it's not. Although there are some variations of masking, it isn't as broad a range, so I'll try to avoid the fault of that comparison. LOL Webbed birds show many, many variations and so counting a good one out should be done on a case by case. As far as I can tell, it is forever in the pool in this line and will come out from time to time regardless. These are my observations on the subject. As many have mentioned, no, I don't cut the webs, I like to know where they are.
c
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classicpony
153 posts
Mar 15, 2007
11:21 AM
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If it don't quack CUT the feet in the middle. If it does quack afterwards you missed up BIG time. :)
Jim
@thebirdhouse
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Steve_uk
103 posts
Mar 15, 2007
11:52 AM
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I'll cut your feet with a razor hey wont hurt a bit! some people on here never cease to amaze me.
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REEDM
5 posts
Mar 15, 2007
12:42 PM
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Luis,
This is a recessive trait. Both parents are carrying one dose of it and the baby you are referring to is carrying two and therefore it shows up. It shows in different amounts some barely noticeable to having all three toes welded together all the way to the end. I have some birds that carry it and every now and again it shows up. I don’t do anything about it until banding time since that is when I first notice it. If there is room between the toes, just put the tip of some scissors in where you want to cut and one quick snip and you are done. If it is tighter, use a razor blade. It will bleed a little at first but not enough to matter. In a couple of days you wont even be able to tell.
If you wait until they are older then the knuckle on the middle toe will become permanently deformed.
Mitch
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REEDM
6 posts
Mar 15, 2007
12:46 PM
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Steve,
Of course it will hurt but you do it when they are little, they heal fast and wont even remember. Do any of you circumcised guys remember the doctor cutting you when you were a baby?
Mitch
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Steve_uk
104 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:01 PM
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ReedM do you even want me to take that remark seriouly?
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REEDM
7 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:16 PM
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"ReedM do you even want me to take that remark seriously?"
Of course I do. If you have the choice between being handicapped or not which would you choose? A bird with toes that are welded together is handicapped. Depending of the severity of the webbing, some birds can’t grab onto a perch or walk on a wire floor. A quick cut will make the birds feet usable and let it live a normal life.
I am not saying that you should purposely breed birds that will have webbed feet. I am saying if you get one, it can be and should be fixed if you catch it at banding time.
Steve, please explain why you are against this.
Mitch
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Steve_uk
105 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:25 PM
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If its done properly by a vet fairy muff but you cant just go cutting away at a birds feet without some kind of anesthetic.
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Missouri-Flyer
355 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:35 PM
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Steve, I will have to disagree with ya on this one..I have docked many a puppies tails in my day, as well as treat thousands of head of cattle without a vet being present. yes, everything is sterile, but no vet was ever needed. I have not bred a web toed bird, and not sure what I would do if I did, but there are ways around calling a vet..Scott stated that he leaves his webbed, but I am sure there are hundreds that do cut theirs, with excellent success....I Just dont buy into the idea of a vet being needed for such a minor problem.Heck, I have even stiched up a few buddies when needed..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1563 posts
Mar 15, 2007
3:58 PM
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Steve, you are only cutting skin, it is no big deal at all .
Scott
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Electric-man
172 posts
Mar 15, 2007
4:46 PM
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My parents told me that I couldn't walk for nearly a year after I was circumcised! LOL
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 4:48 PM
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motherlodelofts
1565 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:10 PM
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You were probably speechless too LOL
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Electric-man
173 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:37 PM
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Rumor has it..... Later that day, they were successful in a large skin drafting procedure! Makes me wonder.....
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 5:41 PM
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luis
223 posts
Mar 15, 2007
8:03 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys!problem solved.I Made a notation on my records on this bird,siblings and the parents to keep track of percentages.I don't want to have to do this on a regular.
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ArlenS
41 posts
Mar 15, 2007
8:19 PM
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I don't believe that a vet would use anesthetic for a procedure as simple as this anyway. There wouldn't be a lot of nerves in a thin flap of skin. You would probably want to do the cutting yourself (unless you are independently wealthy). If you wanted to really minimize the chance of infection, you could flame the scissors tip or razor with a lighter until red hot to sterilize. You could wash the area to be cut first with a disinfectant solution. The steptic pencil sounds like a useful tool to have handy at times to stem bleeding. First give the bird a pigeon-sized shot of Jack and have it bite down hard on a wood dowell.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 8:49 PM
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MILO
252 posts
Mar 15, 2007
9:07 PM
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Jeez...Put the bird in a tube sock, and use a razor blade, and a small board. Cut out the v shape with two slices.
It aint rocket science...lol
c
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tapp
207 posts
Mar 15, 2007
10:47 PM
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When I was in the hospital having surgery , a baby was born without any eyelids.The surgeon wisely suggested using the foreskin when he was circumsized to use to graft his eyelids. Before I left, a nurse came in and told me the baby was fine, but just a little cockeyed.
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Tapp
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JMHD
162 posts
Mar 16, 2007
2:14 AM
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I dont see what the big deal is I have docked the tails and declawed when i was breeding Rottweilers and stitched up my battle cocks when i use to raise them and fight them also stitched my rollers when the preds have torn them up in some cases double stitching when the feed sacks have been ripped open by doing the inner stitch and then the outer stitch. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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Phantom1
157 posts
Mar 16, 2007
9:16 PM
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Sounds like dreaded "mongrel" blood to me!!! LOL!!! Sorry all, couldn't resist.
Seriously...I've had it in my birds as well. Scott is correct, it is a recessive gene. Meaning it can be carried and not expressed. Just like Rec. Red/Yellow. As I have always stood by...if it's not a desireable trait for YOU THE BREEDER, then either cull away from it or alter what is acceptable for YOU THE BREEDER.
Hate to bring personal practice into it all, but personally LOL....If I wanted to breed and fly ducks, I WOOD (get it...Wood Duck??? Anyone...LOL!!!). I do find that it's a flaw. Not just in rollers, but in pigeons in general. Until the day comes that someone has developed a breed of pigeon that is bred for its boyency or speed on water, then I don't find that it has a revelent place in the hobby.
Just my own conceded and humble thoughts,
Eric
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