luis
253 posts
Mar 28, 2007
4:24 PM
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What do you all think?
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tapp
230 posts
Mar 28, 2007
6:05 PM
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I like them luis, are they called splash's
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Tapp
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George Ruiz
226 posts
Mar 28, 2007
6:19 PM
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luis
them birds look like the birds from Ron Duncan and Higgins line of birds
george
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CSRA
88 posts
Mar 28, 2007
6:22 PM
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I agree G. Ruiz
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luis
254 posts
Mar 28, 2007
6:24 PM
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The red mottle cock goes back to Ron Duncan strain.His full sister wich was his mate died on me so i put the black mottle on him,she goes back to N.Reed line.
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luis
255 posts
Mar 28, 2007
6:29 PM
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Hey George,i enjoyed talking w/you today.Feel free to call anytime you wish and whenever you're in town feel free to come by my place.When i go visit my brother i'll give you a call and maybe we can get together.
ArlenS,the more i fly these guys the less concerned i become w/color.I want them to burn up the sky w/performance.If i get some w/color i would concider that a plus,but the bottom line is you can't really see color if they're doing it right and if they're doing it right i don't care what color they are.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2007 10:54 PM
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motherlodelofts
1650 posts
Mar 28, 2007
11:06 PM
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Not bad Luis !!!!
Scott
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nicksiders
1506 posts
Mar 29, 2007
8:44 AM
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Nice birds
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Snicker Rollers
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spinner jim
65 posts
Mar 29, 2007
11:44 AM
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lovely markings,the sort i go for ,will put em on my wish list, jim uk.
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Santandercol
922 posts
Mar 29, 2007
9:40 PM
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If I had all the birds I like that I see on this list my yard would be full of pigeon lofts!!Nice birds Luis.
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Kelly
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gotspin7
61 posts
Mar 30, 2007
4:56 AM
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nice looking birds! Luis
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Shaun
461 posts
Mar 30, 2007
5:17 AM
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I've oft read that brown for a roller is a rarity (Pensom suggested this). Looking at those two pics, the left is clearly a red. Pattern aside, what would you call the base colour of the one on the right?
Shaun
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ROLLERMAN
98 posts
Mar 30, 2007
7:02 AM
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looks like a dun to me
AL
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2007 7:03 AM
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Bundee
18 posts
Mar 30, 2007
10:58 AM
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Guys arent these spangles?
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ArlenS
48 posts
Mar 30, 2007
11:39 AM
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They are both mottles (tiger grizzles). The left is a recessive red (not an ash red) with the tiger grizzle gene, the left is a blue pigeon with the spread gene (black) and the tiger grizzle gene. The tiger grizzle gene is dominant, If they are each heterozygous, carrying one gene for tiger grizzle and one for normal (more often than not the case where only one of their parents carried the tiger grizzle gene, rather than both), approximately 75% of their offspring will be tiger grizzled, 25% homozygous, 50% heterozygous, and 25% not grizzled. No offspring will be recessive red mottles unless the black mottle also carries recessive red. If the black pigeon is heterozygous for spread (dominant) and the recessive red is not carrying spread, approximately 50% of the offspring will be spread.
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ArlenS
49 posts
Mar 30, 2007
11:43 AM
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Sorry, I meant the one on the right was the black tiger grizzle.
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ArlenS
50 posts
Mar 30, 2007
12:21 PM
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Luis,
I'm with you on performance over color or patterns. That said, my favorite coloration is the black mottle. I have both black and red, although one of my two Horner reds just rolled down and killed itself 2 days ago on the neighbors' roof. We could figure out the approximate % of black mottle offspring if we know a few more details. Is the recessive red cock 1. homozygous (carrying both genes) for ash red under the recessive red; 2. heterozygous (carrying one gene for blue) or 3. a blue pigeon?
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2007 12:21 PM
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ArlenS
51 posts
Mar 30, 2007
1:44 PM
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You may not be able to answer the question with certainty about whether the cock under the recessive red coat is homozygous ash red, heterozygous ash red, or blue, unless you know the parentage. Even if you do, and one or both parents were also recessive red, you would have to know their parentage and so on.
1) If the cock is homozygous for ash red, you will get 0% blue offspring, and thus no black mottles.
2) If the cock is heterozygous for ash red (carrying blue) the offspring would have an 18.75% (rounded up to 19/100) probability of being a black mottle.
3) If the cock is a blue pigeon under recessive red, you will get 100% blue offspring with a a 37.5% (rounded up to 38/100) probability of being a black mottle.
You can calculate these probabilities of individual attributes such as color or modifiers with the use of punnett squares. These are explained in detail in Axel Sell's fine book "Genetics and Breeding of Pigeons" (available in the Rollerpigeon.com website store). The probability of multiple events occurring at once may then be calculated with the use of probability statistics.
For scenario 2):
Probability of A (being a blue pigeon) plus B (spread gene=black pigeon) plus C (tiger grizzle)=
P = P(A) × P(B) x P(C)
In other words, the probability of A and B and C all occurring at once is the product of the probability of A and the probability of B and the probability of C.
For scenario 2) where you have a 50% probability of blue offspring, a 50% probability of spread gene (assuming only the black hen is spread and she is heterozygous), and a 75% probability of tiger grizzle gene (assuming both parents are heterozygous for tiger grizzle)
P = 0.50 x 0.5 x 0.75 = 0.1875 x 100 = 18.75%
For scenario 3) where you have a 50% probability of spread gene (assuming only the black hen is spread and she is heterozygous), and a 75% probability of tiger grizzle gene (assuming both parents are heterozygous for tiger grizzle)
P(A and B) = P(A) × P(B)
P = 0.5 x 0.75 = 0.375 x 100 = 37.5%
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2007 1:52 PM
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luis
266 posts
Mar 30, 2007
8:33 PM
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ArlenS,the only thing i can tell you w/100% certainty is that the guy i got the birds from(originally 2 pairs,both hens died) only raised this family and all his birds were red mottles.Not a single bird in his loft looked different!
Thanks for the info.Looks like you got the color genetics thing down pretty well!
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2007 8:39 PM
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Velo99
1015 posts
Mar 31, 2007
3:58 AM
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My favorite pattern is the black white flight and tail with the white spots scattered about. Most of these birds I have have enough uniquity about their coloration,I can pick each one out without having to paint them.
Arlen,
One question. If a chick gets a double dose of the pied which gives the bald marking with white flights and tails. Can it look like a grizzle and still not be? Bird in question I sent to RK. Check out his pix. It is the white bird with the black spots not the really reddish ones. Cock is kinda smoky red and the hen is black baldie. He has the wild style tail and flights,grayish with short bars.
11th pic
TY
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2007 4:09 AM
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ArlenS
52 posts
Mar 31, 2007
7:56 PM
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Kenny,
I found the RollerKid post "These r my new 2007 youngster flyers" dated March 23 (by the way, that gift was very generous of you). In the 11th frame I see the mostly white bird you are talking about with the white flights, dark tail, and neck spots (the spots almost look more red or brown to me. Must be the photo. You asked, "Can it look like a grizzle and still not be?". It does sort of look like a homozygous grizzle. By double dose of the pied I assume you mean both its parents were pied. If you're sure of the parentage, and that the parents weren't carrying grizzle, apparently it can.
Axel Sell's book doesn't quite answer the question, although it indicates that breeding pied to pied can increase the amount of white in the offspring. It indicates that there may be cofactors present that if inherited can increase or decrease the amount of white in pied offspring.
I have 13 pieds, and 1/2 of each of my Horner breeding pairs is pied, although to date, I have not yet bred pied to pied. My mostly white pigeons are homozygous grizzles. I also have a largely white pied plus grizzle. Its colored patch is tortoiseshell.
I talked to Danny Horner tonight, a breeder in Mebane, NC that has a lot of pieds and grizzles, including white ash red homozygous grizzles. He hasn't had a white (pied from each parent) pied with grizzle-like marks like yours but has had some pieds with large amounts of white, and indicated that in order from most white to least white would be homozygous grizzle, grizzle plus pied, and pied plus pied.
I also talked to Dr. Wilmer J. Miller tonight, Professor Emoritus of Zoology and Genetics, University of Iowa. He has done much work with pigeon and dove genetics and has some websites. He said basically the same thing as Danny Horner, and he thought breeding baldheaded pied to pied could increase the white giving mostly white wings but could leave a colored tail.
I wonder if its possible that one of the parents like the black baldie hen is also a pepperhead grizzle but you can't tell by looking because of the bald head. That would be a possible explanation for the grizzle appearance and the large amount of white on the offspring.
The reason I say that is that is that one of my breeders, a Horner ash red bar spread lavender tick cock and a borrowed Alan Dewey black tiger grizzle just threw a white squab like your picture with the neck grizzle marks, but without the colored tail (it has a white tail), and the wing coloring is lighter. When I asked Danny Horner how that was possible (I am sure of the parentage - they were isolated) he thought that perhaps the Lavender cock could be carrying grizzle but not noticeably. This would probably be unusual. Dr. Wilmer says it happens with doves. The lavender cock does have a pinhead sized white dot over each eye. I don't know if pied or grizzle can ever be that subtle.
I think Brian McCormick has posted some good information about genetics, and he has a lot more birds than I do. Maybe he or others may have some thoughts on this.
PS. I may not be corresponding for a little while. I'm having hip surgery Monday.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2007 8:10 PM
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Gregg
47 posts
Mar 31, 2007
8:14 PM
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Arlen,
Good luck with the hip surgery. I go in Monday to have a neurosurgeon stick my spinal area with needles to find the absolute finite area of my problems. Lots of fun.
Kenny,
I have to thank Arlen for finding the picture that you were referring to. That bird is definitely homozygous(double factor) grizzle. It is also white flighted but the tail is a dead giveaway. If not for the white flights the flight feathers would be the same as the tail producing what we refer to as stork marked. But in answer to your query, pied birds can also be grizzle but are not the same thing. You will find that most pied markings are recessive in nature and only express when in the homozygous state.
Gregg.
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ArlenS
53 posts
Mar 31, 2007
8:25 PM
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You're right. It does look stork-marked. For it to be a stork-marked homozygous grizzle it would have to be a blue pigeon, meaning that the red cock must be ticked (carrying blue). But could the red cock be carrying grizzle which is dominant without it being apparent? The hen could be carrying grizzle covered by the baldhead. With black spread pigeons, grizzle is often seen only as a pepperhead.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2007 8:27 PM
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ArlenS
54 posts
Mar 31, 2007
8:31 PM
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Could the red cock's pied appearance really be grizzle? I assume that could only happen if it had several pied-looking marks about the head.
Gregg,
Thanks and good luck with your procedure also.
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ArlenS
55 posts
Mar 31, 2007
9:05 PM
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Luis,
The guy must have really liked red mottles. If he was breeding them together, your red mottle may be more likely to be homozygous for tiger grizzle. If that is the case, then the offspring have 100% chance of inheriting tiger grizzle, 50% will be homozygous tiger grizzle and 50% will be heterozygous (assuming the black mottle hen is heterozygous).
If the red mottle is homozygous, the probabilities for scenario 2 and 3 would be 25% and 50% chance of black mottle offspring.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2007 9:17 PM
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Velo99
1018 posts
Apr 01, 2007
6:16 AM
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Arlen.
Thanks so much for all of your efforts in answering my question. This is the second season I have bred this hen and the first for the cockbird, first year with this pairing.
I don`t have any grizzles in the breeder loft period. Any griz that pops up has to be het. I breed in indie pens so the parentage is positive. Only other cockbirds in the pen are black and red bar.
The hen is showing the baldie markings. To look at the cock he doesn`t have much white at all,and he has a little ticking. His flights are light gray.
The nesty to the white bird is blue spread. The first pair of chicks from them was the reduced baldie and the blue spread expressing bronze in the same post.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2007 6:40 AM
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Gregg
48 posts
Apr 01, 2007
6:51 AM
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Kenny,
Am looking forward to seeing the pics of the homo. griz's parents. As Arlen stated earlier, the tiger grizzle is the culprit. Many don't realize that mottled/spangled/tigered birds are actually tiger grizzle in the genotype.
You describe the birds that you like being dark tailed and flighted but with white spots all over. You just took the phenotypic description of tiger grizzle straight out of the book. It is generally a self bird when fledged and more white shows up with each succeeding molt. Add the recessive pied and you also generally get the resulting white flights along with it. White flights are generally the result of the color losing the impetus to finish the race to the end of the flights. Don't know why it shuts down, but it does. This is true in the tail feathers also. But the best way to describe it is that there are recessive white genes that inhibit the full expression of the color genes to the far reaches of the birds feathers. The absence of color is white. The DNA experts would kill me for describing it this way but this is the layman's description.
By the way, the tiger grizzle was probably the original grizzle mutation in pigeons. Recessive red and spread work magic on the grizzle genes, doing a great job of masking and altering their phenotype(appearance).
Paying attention to and noting in your records the bird as a self or grizzle as it emerges from the nest will be the only way that you can know for sure which is which later in it's life.
Gregg.
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Gregg
49 posts
Apr 01, 2007
7:24 AM
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Kenny,
I just went back through your birds pics on the other post. You have more grizzle in your loft than you can imagine.
By the way, I really like the looks of that black pied hen. And I suspect that if you bred the bird in question from this pair in individual breeding pens, then both are carrying (heterozygous) for some form of grizzle. Questions I would ask is how long were they together before they laid the egg in question? Did they come from a community holding pen(combined sexes) very shortly before the egg was laid?
Pics:
1. on the right side, appears to be a grizzle.
2. no doubt a grizzle on the side of the pic.
3. is a red check grizzle
4. what appears to be a rec red grizzle.
6. het rec red(carrying), probably indigo.
7. het rec red
8. red grizzle, pattern a question mark.
10. I count three grizzles, including the bird in question in pic # 11.
13. looks dilute.
14. grizzle
15. left bird is grizzle
17. back bird is probably grizzle.
You have some grizzle in your loft if all of these are birds from you.
Can't speak with confidence reference the pair that you posted except to say that possibly both are tiger grizzle. Tiger grizzle has such a wide expression that it is very plausible that you are seeing the effects of same. I am not that knowledgable about the homozygous phenotype of tiger grizzle to be able to say that it is similar to homozygous grizzle. G(grizzle) and GT(tiger grizzle) are closely related a mutants but I will have to defer to some one else reference the expression of tiger grizzle in the homo. state.
Gregg.
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Velo99
1019 posts
Apr 01, 2007
8:51 AM
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Gregg
The pair posted are the parents of the white bird I orignially asked about
The red grizzles came from a foster pair. I let most of the new pairs,including new fosters,raise a round on the very first time to get everyone in time and get off an early round.
They came straight out of segregation and into an indie pen.
The bird came from the second round they laid.I fostered the first round out and got the reduced baldie and the black bronze.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2007 8:54 AM
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Gregg
54 posts
Apr 01, 2007
10:25 AM
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Kenny,
OK. One more question. Do you drink? Had to ask!LOL.
Is it possible that you mistakenly put the wrong eggs in the trash and left the pair of grizzles to raise out a round of there own unbeknownst to you?
I know I have made my share of mistakes in the loft, a few that I still regret.
That is the only explanation that makes any sense as I really doubt that you had a mutation that came in the homozygous state.
.....Weird. I'm scratching my head.
Gregg.
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Velo99
1022 posts
Apr 01, 2007
5:56 PM
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Greg,
as soon as the eggs ae laid I take a pencil and mark the date and pair number on each one to prevent any confusion.
I think I have a double dose of pied making the bird white. Het griz or double dose is the only explanation
kh
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2007 5:58 PM
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ArlenS
56 posts
Apr 01, 2007
11:52 PM
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On a side note,
I was mistaken earlier when I said I was not breeding pieds together. I forgot about one Horner pair, a blue T-check bronze bearded white flight cock and a black bearded white flight hen. So far, the few offspring have had similar pied markings.
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ArlenS
57 posts
Apr 02, 2007
12:05 AM
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Until we hear from someone more knowledgeable, I would pose a guess that homozygous tiger grizzle would be mostly white similar to homozygous grizzle. The exceptions being when the spread gene is present with a blue pigeon making it black, it would still look like a black tiger grizzle; or if spread ash red, it would look like a lavender, dun, or mahogany colored tiger grizzle. If recessive red, it would still be a red tiger grizzle (mottle). The reason being that the spread gene and recessive red both overide the grizzle.
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ArlenS
58 posts
Apr 02, 2007
12:13 AM
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Tapp and Bundee,
My recollection is that a splash is a bird with a larger patch or patches of multiple white feathers. I think spangle is another name for mottle.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2007 12:14 AM
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ArlenS
59 posts
Apr 02, 2007
12:38 AM
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Kenny,
Nice pictures. I see what you mean about the pied markings but from the limited angle I can see, I am guessing that that Gregg may be right and that both birds are carrying grizzle (and pied). The black hen could be a pepperhead grizzle but the pied markings are covering up the smaller grizzle markings. The cock looks like he possibly could also have some subtle grizzle markings along with pied. I have a large proportion of grizzles, and some of them are very lightly marked.
On the other hand, my heterozygous pied/heterozygous grizzle mostly white young bird that I mentioned previously is pure white with the exception of a tortoise shell cape over its neck and shoulders. The parent cock is a red check - no pied - no grizzle. The hen is a blue bar badge white flight (pied) grizzle. The offspring has way more white than its mother.
So, perhaps either scenario is possible:
1)Both grizzles and pieds; or
2)Grizzled/pied hen and pied cock.
Although Gregg is right, it did look stork-marked like a homozygous blue grizzle.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2007 12:55 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
19 posts
Apr 02, 2007
4:53 AM
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Luis, your pair looks like they can produce some good offspring. I had a Red Mottle with similar markings to your cock. Lost her last year to a hawk. I'm not sure if it was a Cooper or Red-tail, because young immature red tails out here in California can often be nearly the size of a well-fed mature Cooper.
Don't know your regional location, so hawks in your vicinity may be a little more aggressive. The red-tailed hawk is in a grouping of 14 sub-species, each of which is more or less specific to a geographical area. I've learned these birds of prey differ from others in size, markings etc. The colouring of Red-tails varies (even within sub-species) from a very dark appearance to a very pale form, so field identification is more successful by observing the birds' behaviour than from just appearance alone. Within its range, its frequent soaring and loud voice are a good pointer to distinguish it from other hawks & birds of prey... so it was possible that it was a Red-tail that swooped my mottle hen because I heard lots of shrieking that morning.. As many of us know, these hawks will come and pluck birds right off roof-tops... as opposed to plucking them out the air like Falcons prefer to do.
I read somewhere that the Cooper's hawk is an Illinois wildlife success story. These birds of prey have been removed from the Illinois State Endangered Species List.
Keem'em flying!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2007 4:56 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
108 posts
Jun 13, 2007
5:37 PM
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Hi Luis....
How's that pair of Mottle breeders doing? I'm sure you like the youngsters that they are throwing you.
Just wondering if you are on your 2nd or 3rd round by now. I truly like the way you paired'em up, might get some Yellow Mottles or Yellow Spangles out of them. From what I hear, these tend to be FREQUENT & HOT in the air.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts.
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luis
304 posts
Jun 14, 2007
11:26 PM
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Hey Marcus how you doing?I have gotten 4 rounds out of this pair and only have 3 left to show for it.Pretty young ones and all red mottles like the sire.I'm hoping they last so i can see what they can do.Unfortunately i have resident red tails that make it very difficult to fly and train my birds.Most of the time they get scared up high.Pretty frustrating for a roller breeder that hopes to compete some day!
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DeepSpinLofts
435 posts
Mar 25, 2008
9:43 PM
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Good evening Luis....
How's that pair of Mottle breeders doing?
Did you get any Yellow Mottles or Yellow Spangles out of this pair yet?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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luis
736 posts
Mar 25, 2008
11:37 PM
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Hey Marcus,you brought back an old one!To answer your question,all i get out of this pair are photocopies of mom&dad....in other words,red mottles and black mottles.Two offspring left from last years breeding season.This year i have 6 young ones and hoping for better results.One i opted to breed and the other one i have from last year doesn't really have the style i like.I've kept him because bops really cleaned me out,so no sense in culling the very few birds they left me.I use them to home my young ones,and if i have a good year,the new ones will replace them!
Hope you're having better luck than me with the bops,it's tough around my neck of the woods!
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ICEMAN710
229 posts
Mar 26, 2008
2:21 AM
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Good luck with them all this year luis, you cant go wrong with red or black mottles! hopefully those six will get enough air time untouched and see what they do. whats the one you stocked doing in the air? Good luck!
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Gary
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DeepSpinLofts
436 posts
Mar 26, 2008
2:36 AM
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Good morning Luis...
Yeah this is a rather old one in comparison to other topics on this webpage.
Hmm...
I was just trying to do a follow up on your mottle pairing and wanted to know if any yellows popped out of their eggs yet. You answered my question and I sincerely appreciate the response.
As far as BOP is concerned.... not many flyers in my immediate vicinity. The BOP have tried to attack my birds but I've been extremely lucky so far. It appears the BOP migrated down south.
NOTE: I think that by moving my mobile kit boxes back inside of the barn at night (and closing the door) the BOP get confused when they fly back looking for the kit boxes and birds early in the morning.
It appears only 2 or 3 flyers of pigeons live within a 3 mile radius of me and one of those lofts only fly Racing Homers. After that... you have to travel another 15 to 20 miles before another pigeon flyer can be found.
Maybe all of those BOP like to migrate and hunt in the Southern California region because this geographical area has the most Roller Pigeon flyers in the world. JMO
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 26, 2008 2:38 AM
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c robbo
247 posts
Mar 26, 2008
9:50 AM
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the 1st 2 verry nice mate.i like the orange eyes.
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Donny James
333 posts
Mar 26, 2008
7:43 PM
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hay luis very nice looking pair and i want to wish you all the best with them.................donny james
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elopez
850 posts
Mar 26, 2008
9:05 PM
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Hey Luis,
Do you live near Temple and California? I was driving by and saw some birds flying today. I thought they might be yours?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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