nicksiders
1547 posts
Apr 04, 2007
9:54 PM
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Damn Dave, I am going to have to print this thread and chew on it for a while.......it is a big one and I am not the sharpest marble in the bag.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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CSRA
122 posts
Apr 04, 2007
10:12 PM
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You mean the sharpest knife in the drawer LOL
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2007 10:13 PM
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Electric-man
210 posts
Apr 04, 2007
10:33 PM
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LMAO !
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DeepSpinLofts
28 posts
Apr 05, 2007
4:09 AM
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Hi Dave....
Great to see you still pursuing genetic research in order to better understand the roller pigeon. Tell Joe I said thanks for the HFRF bands.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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gotspin7
69 posts
Apr 05, 2007
4:59 AM
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Dave, real good info! Thank you,
Sal
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motherlodelofts
1667 posts
Apr 05, 2007
4:50 PM
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I'm dizzy and confused now
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nicksiders
1550 posts
Apr 05, 2007
8:54 PM
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I hate it when real smart people get involved in the hobby. Don't you, Scott?
They just mess my little pea brain up and make me read stuff two or three times.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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motherlodelofts
1668 posts
Apr 05, 2007
10:45 PM
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Nick ,only the bird itself can give you an educated guess on how to breed it or if it should be bred.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2007 1:02 AM
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classicpony
172 posts
Apr 06, 2007
11:47 AM
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I just wish my simple mind could digest it all, there is alot there. I need to spit out some kind of a rebutal. So all I can say is.... breed only the best
Jim
@thebirdhouse
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2007 8:12 PM
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MILO
303 posts
Apr 06, 2007
12:38 PM
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I wouldn't call this W-chromosome theory junk. I would have to say that the reason there is an equal amount of spinners in both sexes according to polls is because the capacity to roll is in both parents. To simplify my thoughts on this, I would compare the rolling attribute to be as equal in both sexes, as their ability to regurgitate pigeon milk. The W-chromosome theory should not be tossed aside for one reason, that it could possibly explain the size variance in our families based on which direction we inbreed and linebreed. Why do my good cockbirds look (physically) like their mothers? So, when taking these boys back to their mothers the offspring are in almost all cases significantly reduced in size. When I do this with the cockbirds, the size remains the same. I find it very interesting. Breeding away from the hen side gives me birds that show little variation in size. In fact they show more bullish qualities than hen bred cocks. Rolling is a completely different issue in my opinion. If there is an increased percentage of good rollers in a hen line, I think it is more coincidental in that the SIZE and TYPE is more conducive for rolling properly. Again, that is an entirely different topic, and perhaps an equally controversial one. LOL Dave, knowing a little about your birds, would you say that your cocks are bullish, or a little on the henny side? I am curious to know. I know of a lot of guys that based their families on a superior hen, but later discarded the same hen, and moved forward with a superior son from the same hen. The reasons for doing so, in my opinion, is to avoid what I am experiencing in my hes lines. I'm curious to know.
c
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Gregg
61 posts
Apr 06, 2007
1:42 PM
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Dave,
Thanks for the great post. Information which I am very familiar with but which a bit of a refresher never hurts.
I work both sides of this both from the hen side and from the cock side. Percentages of great birds always tends to favor the females. When a great cock bird comes along, you have to make darn sure you take great advantage of it. Cock birds of the like I am referring to are perhaps one in three to five years.
It's not that great hens, the type that Scott refers to, are that abundant, just that they are more predominant in the population than the cock birds of the same ilk.
Gregg.
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motherlodelofts
1673 posts
Apr 06, 2007
2:40 PM
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Good hens are more abundant simply because they don't on a whole carry the strength , in unstable familys many times the cocks are the best do to this.
I see many factors affecting the roll, it starts with the roll gene , and how that plays in is determined by how much roll gene, and physical and mental strength.
I like birds that are strong mentaly and physicaly that are full of roll, so natually good cocks are harder to come by , but as my loft progresses I see more of such birds.
At time's I am following hens ,and at time's I am following cocks.
But I also get variables as far as mental stengths of which I try to balance when mating.
but never do I go broad spectrum such as stiffs to hot (unstable) , I see this as only putting you all over the board , the differences that I am refering to are much more subtle.
I don't over think this stuff, but I also started with a solid family of birds .
I studied the hell out of them, and I learned alot by not only studying the good ones but also culls such as bumpers,non kitters , and I looked at the other end of the spectrum such as stiffs,tumblers ect.
I am still constantly throwing birds in a show cage just to admire and study the good one's , I do the same with youngsters.
To be honest I didn't even have the patiance to finish reading what was above , it just didn't interest me in the least, I'm more of a nutz and bolts kinda guy .
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2007 2:43 PM
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nicksiders
1551 posts
Apr 06, 2007
3:21 PM
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I rarely have a cock rolldown and my stiff birds are usually cocks. There are exceptions, but they are far and few between. The strenght of the cock prevails and overcomes the roll, seemingly more often than the hen. The cocks also have the tighter and higher velocity spin, generally. This too could be contributed to the cock's more strength.
Just my observance and probably has nothing to do with the W-chromozome tread. I haven't been able to find a quiet place and read it, yet. But, I like to hear myself talk.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Gregg
63 posts
Apr 06, 2007
4:54 PM
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Hell, Nick, We're all guilty of that. That's what brings roller men together.
Gregg.
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DHenderson
32 posts
Apr 06, 2007
8:25 PM
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The article I put up for discussion I hope I got a lot of you thinking about stuff. I really didnt think this site had discussed this topic and thought you all would enjoy it, I find it very intriquing.
My line of birds has always been prominently a hen line in terms of my pairs producing a higher percentage of top spinning hens in comparison to cocks and also just raising MORE hens period. I get a lot of twin hens, maybe 3-4 clutches a season, in the nest but can't recall ever getting twin cocks?
I can also state that from my recollection that everytime I have had twin hens they have both been good spinners.
I have also noticed that from a pair that is one youngster is a good spinners the nestmate will also be a good spinner. Not sure if anyone has noticed this or not?
After working this line I have since 1990 I have developed them to a point where the cocks and hens are all about the same in terms of size. The cocks might be 1 oz heavier at the most in the stock loft but in the kit box they were very close to the same size.
The best cocks tend to be the smaller ones that are more henish looking even though they are always aggressive once they mature in and go into the stock loft. They are mostly very managable in the kit boxes, but at times cocks I raise will become overly aggressive and need to be actually culled at times from this. I keep the feed down and also will fly these cocks more often but some just loose in mentally and can't stay focuses.
l have seen some henish cocks that are very henish and rarely coo and dance around but mine are not like this, at least not yet?
At my present stage with my family I would say that all my best cocks are from my best hens, which I have always inbred and line bred to the hens but rarely have to bred back to the cocks. I had tried this early in my family development but found that breeding back to the hens tended to yeild more good spinners on average so I kept with it and never looked back.
This year is really the first year I have 3 pairs all line bred back to a common father which of course is an inbred pigeon first of all. I know that they will be successful as I am seeing the type that predominently turns into good spinners coming out of the nest from these pairs. They are 3 pairs of 1/2 siblings that share the same father. Every pair is from a differnt cock however, meaning each pair has a different cock or father bird. They are basically my main stock cocks.
These days I can't really state what I did early on with most of the spinners being hens these days, the percentages are getting more and more even with each generation. I get almost an equal number to top spinning cocks as hens these days. The only thing that prevents me from tracking this more closely is due to the falcons and other predators eating on them which would prevent me from having better records on this.
I have had at least 1 real roll down in the last 2 seasons and both were hens and there were no common traits to state that they were from a same parent.
All my birds are at least cousins and I run them as 3 cousin lines.
Joe Urbon and I run similar related birds and can share birds to develop them along. He has his own projects and I have mine so we have developed them as such. But they are all cousins.
Anyway hope this might answer a bit. or if you have more questions feel free to ask.
Dave H
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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parlorfancier916
295 posts
Apr 07, 2007
1:00 AM
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Dave, I got a question for you... Why is it that when I breed a rolldown with a nonrolling pigeon, I only get better results in creating spinners with a hen rolldown?
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DeepSpinLofts
37 posts
Apr 07, 2007
1:39 AM
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Hey Dave.... how's that hen doing?
You know the Dark Check M/T hen 15ft-40ft smoker
Band number HFRF-649
Breed her yet???
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2007 1:08 PM
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DHenderson
33 posts
Apr 07, 2007
8:34 AM
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I have found over the years that the hens tend to dominate the mating a bit, this might be due to less genetics combinations as in keeping with these chromosomes. The cock has slightly more combinations so hens will breed more true more or less.
I think that cocks control the depth a little more then the hens in mating. Meaning if you want to create some super deep birds breed from super deep cocks. If you want more kit type birds keep with more competition depths, 20-30 foot, alwasy keep the cocks in those depths ranges not a 50-60 footer or more.
I am sure there will always be exceptions to this as all families have their own make up of genetics from selection but I wonder if there are some that can say they have experienced the same from the deep cocks? Especially in a family that is relatively new in development.
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DHenderson
34 posts
Apr 07, 2007
8:35 AM
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Marcus,
yes that hen is on here first eggs now.
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parlorfancier916
299 posts
Apr 07, 2007
12:53 PM
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Dave please teach me all you know about genetics,
Doua
b-b-o-y-4-l-y-f@hotmail.com
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DeepSpinLofts
42 posts
Apr 08, 2007
12:36 PM
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Happy Easter Dave...
I'm sure you spending the day with the wife & kids.
re: That Dark Check M/T hen 15ft-40ft smoker. How many rounds so far?
...or
Is this her first?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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