Velo99
1040 posts
Apr 07, 2007
7:11 AM
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Ivan
I read this article several times as I was building to the stage I am at now. It is very informative and eye opening whe you actually put it into practice.
I have better kitbirds this year as a result of better selection in both the breeder and kit boxes. I do believe some of the same selection doctrine is being preached here as a rule rather than an option when selecting birds for any phase of ones program,as it should be. The only way to progress is to breed smart,fly hard, and cull hard.
Thanks for posting this article.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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classicpony
176 posts
Apr 07, 2007
1:21 PM
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Flyin H,
Wow that was good. I call that some good food for thought. He is so right in so many ways. He was ahead of his time. Thanks for shareing this with me. Now I will be looking for my birds showing any of the traits he told about.
Jim
@thebirdhouse
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gotspin7
74 posts
Apr 07, 2007
3:01 PM
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Ivan, great article!
Sal
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DHenderson
35 posts
Apr 07, 2007
6:01 PM
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That is some good food for thought but the way he writes it it is really misleading and hard to understand EXACTLY what he was trying to say in this.
I get that he says that champions are born and start to perform early but a lot of the qualities he gestures too are some of the same tings he says are no good and should not be bred from.
The rollers should always be in the kit so how can he state that these keepers never screws up in kit turns, which sounds to me like "while the birds are breaking?" or actually just kitting and flying around? If it is acting funny then how would you really see it tail gliding etc.. or tumbling etc... unless the bird is not a very good kitting pigeon? but then he may not be referring to competition oriented type flyig? Which he referring too?
What I have seen with mature pigeons, over a year old, is that they have better control at the lower altitudes and will not bump except maybe if you are over flying them, or starving them down to a weakened state?
I for one really don't like birds that fly "HAPPY" and do their own thing, I doubt Hans did either? I would rather they not roll then display the poor qualities that is named off ikn this article but I also know that all birds NEVER will be in top form on a day to day basis. They are not machines, so to me he is very flip floppy and contridicting with this article.
So with that in mind what is he really saying here?
Birds learn and make mistakes just like people and to list the quidelines as he did really isn't accurate in my opinion, even though I can read between the lines what I THINK he is meaning he really doesn't write it like that?
About all I really get out of it is that you need to pay attention and watch your birds so that you are able to select the best birds in your learned opinion of this statement, GOOD!
The statement really is not the same in all regions or areas of the country. Many times regions are accepting a certain quality and then sharing these ideals with others whether they really know for sure or not? They see it locally so how could it be wrong?
There are qualities such as pairs producing 10-20% roll downs OR MORE!! , birds that spin deep but really isn't the tightest spinner but depth is their main concern, or that it takes in excess of 2 or more months just to get them to fly and kit properly, if they don't roll as old birds, or you have to starve them to get them roll properly with frequency, the list goes on.
Guys accept what they know and work with it even if they KNOW that they have qualities with their own birds that others don't they have put in all the work and don't want to toss the entire program. As they move forward with their breeding program they will become more and more "loft blind", it's just what happens.
I mean some guys are blind and some can see 20-20, so how can they all be seeing he same thing?
Just do the best you can with what you have and if you need or think you need an out cross keep it on a small scale as it's much easier to get side tracked by possing 10+ differnt families, but again you feed them and can keep them for whatever reason you justify to yourself.
Dave
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2007 6:03 PM
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nicksiders
1553 posts
Apr 07, 2007
6:21 PM
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Makes sense to me. I think his name is intimadating(LOL) another problem that may have scared people away.
Thank you, Ivan.
Nick
PS - I wished I had bought and kept the Avanti from Studebaker. I even went to school with a member of the family.
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2007 6:27 PM
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motherlodelofts
1681 posts
Apr 07, 2007
6:35 PM
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Man Ivan , hard core , although I agree with much of it , the fact is my best are the one's that roll hard and never made mistakes.
But I can't say that I havn't used some that had made a mistake or two when younger either, but nor will I use birds that were a problem or a headache when younger , that was a good read that many could learn from , thanks for posting it.
Scott
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Gregg
66 posts
Apr 07, 2007
8:22 PM
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Dave,
What I am striving for as I rebuild is a bird that Hans speaks of. I have had only a couple over thirty six plus years of breeding and flying rollers. Recognizing same requires twenty years of roller experience. It is a bird that you cannot mismanage. I don't think Hans was being contradictory at all. He was simply stating the facts. I can tell you exactly the two birds. 114-89 was a perfect specimen. Even after almost twenty years with rollers I still didn't recognize her as such until she was given away to another fancier. 1295-95 was another such bird. Both were lavender badges that could do no wrong. Fly them hungry, fly them right, fly them fed and they would put on the same perfect performance day in and day out. You couldn't mismanage them. They were too good to be affected by our stupidity. 1295 I lost in her second year. They were the two perfect rollers that I have ever had. Everything else comes in second or third. I have a couple of hens now that I would like to fly out into their third and fourth years but can't afford that scenario because of the BoP's. So I am hoping that a bit of experience will suffice for what I didn't understand earlier in my roller history.
Hans was a very perceptive individual when it came to rollers. I would not question much of what he has to say unless I could specifically point to an obvious contradiction. JMHO.
Gregg.
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Santandercol
964 posts
Apr 07, 2007
9:28 PM
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Thanks for passing that on Ivan.
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Kelly
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DHenderson
37 posts
Apr 07, 2007
9:43 PM
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Greg
I know what Han's is thinking but to me he didn't relay it in his writtings very well.
Personally the bird I stock will never tail ride as adults, and I can never recall them doing a slow tumble for the most part. They seem very steady and do at least fast spins no matter what depth they do it. They are for sure variable depth pigeons.
Many of the attributes he says are negative in his article are basic things you see in some juvenile birds and he does not state if he discounts them as juvenile birds still learning or does he even say that he is judging the hold overs or old birds in the air. I would assume he is judging old birds but I don't recall him stating as much.
For me it's pretty hard to be a hard ass on juvenile birds that are learning to spin with frequency, to good style and in the learning stages of development. He says it more cut and dry and he might mean it like that but I just don't agree with that.
It's just like anything there is a learning curve and you have to be able to manage them and make them the best you can. You just can't fly them hard day after day and hope that some survive as this would me mismanagment in my eyes.
this would be expecting our rollers to be machines and never falter.
This is jsut my opinion.
Dave
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2007 9:47 PM
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JMHD
190 posts
Apr 08, 2007
2:31 AM
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Ivan as always very good stuff there alot of useful
knowledge. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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Double R
34 posts
Apr 08, 2007
4:57 AM
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Ivan
Thanks for sharing, articles like this give newbies like me alot to think about!!!
YITS...Robby
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2007 5:11 AM
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Gregg
74 posts
Apr 08, 2007
6:11 AM
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Dave,
I understand where you are coming from. Given the take you are putting on it and practicing same as Hans stated, most of us wouldn't end up with enough birds in October to fly. Some of what he refers to has to apply to young birds: not kitting, high flying above the kit, possessed by the roll are just a few that come to mind. Weak birds should not make it to the kit box. I've been guilty of this myself perhaps because of the parentage on ocassion but I have promised myself that it is going to stop. What I am realizing is that they are neat birds to keep around to feed to the BoP if you want a little relief on a particular day.
I will submit to you that if you read Pensom, Evans and a few others, you will find the same slight contradictions. That is part of what that twenty years of experience Pensom talks about in the production of a good rollerman. Even his opinions changed somewhat over the years. I know you have the experience to read between the lines of what Hans is saying. And as cold as it may be, we cannot teach new converts to the roller hobby all of the ins and outs irrespective of how far instant communication has brought us. There is still a learning curve. I do believe that is why you brought up your original post in the first place. I'm just glad that I don't rank up there with some of those guys and a few of the present day fanciers. Twenty years from now some guy named Dave would be tearing me a new hind end. LOL.
Gregg.
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motherlodelofts
1685 posts
Apr 08, 2007
10:16 AM
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"They demonstrate a wide range of performance. They can just pop thier wings and glide, they can pop and add a tail sit to it,and sometimes a slow tumble. They cut fast short spins, fast deep spins, and they do whatever is appropriate under the circumstance everytime."
Dave , the last sentence is the "key" here , Pensom also made note of this and many didn't understand what he was trying to get accross and they took it out of context , (one example) what does a good kit of top shelf birds do when not at a comfortable ht. ?.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2007 10:21 AM
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Flyin Hawaiian
115 posts
Apr 08, 2007
10:46 AM
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Hey Earthquake,
Pensoms early writings are very contradictory to what he had written shortly before his death. Of coarse we don't want the bird that slow tumbles tail rides etc. Scott nailed it when in his closing sentence to the paragraph in which you refer too. The jest of it to me was they are under control in any given situation thus they posess the roll not possesed by the roll voluntary or involuntary. I doubt seriously that to many today could touch what Hans flew in his prime as he flew as good as it gets I can attest to that first hand. When he resided in Boulder colorado I visited him and he had wrote previous to my visit that if your birds don't land on your kit pen they are culls and should be disgarded. After seeing his setup I knew why he wrote that. He had his pen sitting in a 5 acre lot with not a house within 30 acres from him and power lines in the distance of the same. Where were they to land on the ground LOL! I think one needs to keep an open mind on all subjects even though they have been disected inside and out things over time change and thus your opinion changes the same way. Like I have said before the birds that you stock today will be culls 5 years from now because you are going to be more critical about what you want in your breeders outcome. Gregg I know you have a certain likings for the Roenttenbacher birds huh??
I see nothing misleading in Hans article. The truth of the matter is this when anybody gets thier toes stomped on they seem to get riled up about the truth and the excuses and compromises seem to run rampant. We all fall short of the aforementioned one time or another but it is a good thing to bring up to remind us of what we need to do in order to achieve and set the mark higher in achieving our goals. One side note Dave I believe your foundation birds on one side are from the late Paul Bradford. You may or may not know this but his top producing cock bird a gravel eyed dark T check was a pure Hans Roenttenbacher bird.
Ivan
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motherlodelofts
1689 posts
Apr 08, 2007
11:10 AM
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"The jest of it to me was they are under control in any given situation thus they posess the roll not possesed by the roll voluntary or involuntary."
Ivan , there it is in a nutshell , it shows control.
You know when you look at Pensons writings you can see where he changed his opinions here and there over the years.
But also he would write about the same subjects many times over the years , and many time's you would get a better explanation of what he was trying to get accross , or at least a little more info that would shed light on its context , I think in the early years he had a harder time getting his message accross.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2007 11:36 AM
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Gregg
75 posts
Apr 08, 2007
6:03 PM
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Ivan,
YOU could tell. LOL. I think the man had it together. No one is perfect and even the perfect bird has an off day as Dave suggests. I've watched birds do a lot of things over the years and had a few pretty awesome kits to sit under. But the constant that has always been present in my mind is simply stated: "How do I improve what I have now?"
That is why the word "control" is so damn important and can never be underestimated.
Scott,
You mentioned a number of things that young rollers do.
But I will ask you, as you stated you pay minute attention to your birds, "Have you ever had the bird that started perfect and was perfect every day after every day after every day?" As I said previously, I've had two that really impressed me in every aspect from day one. No glitches, mistakes, great kit birds, the whole nine yards. They both also had outstanding velocity and very good depth. The only thing that they really taught me was that there are a few like them, albeit, very few, in this world. If I've had a couple, then there are guys out there with better savy than myself with the BR that have out done me and know what I'm talking about. They are what we are striving for, settling for anything less is akin to kissing your sister.
And now I'm going to ruin all of the above, yes, I want it in a bronze reduced blue T-check. You can stop gagging now, they are only words. Smile.
Gregg.
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Flyin Hawaiian
117 posts
Apr 08, 2007
6:09 PM
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Hey Gregg,
Yeah and if my sister had balls she'd be my brother LMAO!!
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motherlodelofts
1690 posts
Apr 08, 2007
6:20 PM
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"But I will ask you, as you stated you pay minute attention to your birds, "Have you ever had the bird that started perfect and was perfect every day after every day after every day?"
Gregg , I think that you meant this for Dave and not me, but I'll answer it anyway , that answer is "No" in fact I would say that if someone had one I would tell them how I can run 76 miles an hr without even getting short on breath LOL , it can't be done.
Scott
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Gregg
76 posts
Apr 09, 2007
5:23 AM
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Scott,
114-89 was as perfect a bird as I ever had the opportunity to own. 1295-95 was her daughter, closely line bred down from the old Nellie line I started with the 505-82 lavender hen from Munson. 1295 didn't live long enough to go back in the air so I can't sit here and tell you that she was perfect for years. 114-89, that I can do.
She flew for two years, was bred from for two years and went back into the air those two years. After that I never let her out of the breeding pen. I still wasn't aware of how important she was to me as I still had many of the old Nellie line going. If I was told I could have 114-89 back today, I'd do it in a heart beat and throw out everything in my loft, start all over again.
I know that I can't convince you that she was the closest thing to perfection that I have ever had, but she was an outstanding individual that never missed, that I observed, in the four years that I had her in the air.
Gotta go to work bud, have a good week.
Gregg.
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motherlodelofts
1694 posts
Apr 09, 2007
6:35 AM
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So are you trying to tell me that bird rolled flawless from start to finish every time it rolled ,day in and day out regardless of condition or conditions including moult ?
We need to stand under some kits together LOL
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1312 posts
Apr 09, 2007
10:37 AM
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Scott, that unique situation with a bird isn't totally out of the question, and suggesting to someone that they must stand under the same kit as you won't change that. I've had several birds that once they came into the full term of their performance, maintained that performance each and every day. A blue check hen that was super in the air, one I flew for four years was like that, same good performance every time flown, occasionally she would step it up a notch. Sadly the falcon finally got her.
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W@yne
351 posts
Apr 09, 2007
12:18 PM
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Even the very best birds do have off days it is impossible to have a faultless bird that rolls the same every time it is put in the air. Like Scotty said moult, condition of the bird, The weather conditions play big factors in any birds performance in the air. We are not flying robots guys these things or living creatures every living creature will have off days. I have plenty of them Lol. Lets just say we have a perfect roller for argument sake once all these factors have been met.
Regards
W@yne uk
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Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2007 12:25 PM
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DHenderson
39 posts
Apr 09, 2007
3:39 PM
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back to the contridictory things that are written, almost forgot.
Well like everything we never know everything so we are continuing to learn more and more and this is what creates the contridictory statments.
I am sure that Han's should have filled in the blanks a little more to explain what he was really wanting to relay when he simply leaves you to fill in the blanks thinking that you really know what he is meaning.
A new guy would have a hard time following the works of Pensom and some of the other old timers as their writtings were not very straight forward and easy to follow. I always hated this. I would however like to get a copy of the "collective writting of Pensom" to read thru. Is Tom M putting this one out again yet? or where can a copy be obtained?
I heard that Houghton and another long time fancier wrote some new books, anyone get a chance to read them yet? I heard Houghton's more of a "winners with spinner" type book.
Dave
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motherlodelofts
1697 posts
Apr 09, 2007
5:21 PM
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I think that we see things differently Brian.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2007 5:23 PM
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Gregg
77 posts
Apr 09, 2007
7:01 PM
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Scott,
You've got me sitting here laughing out loud, down to a big smile now. I would expect nothing less from you my friend. Your attitude is what I have come to look forward to and you damn well know mine ain't far behind.
I've raised somewhere between 4500 and 5000 BR's in the past thirty seven years. In that time I tell you that I've had two of them that have been flawless, one for a number of years. One full season of flying, three months in a breeding pen and then back in the air. The third year she flew for two months after breeding and ditto the fourth year.
She was the only bird that I ever had that was that good. And I'll be the first to admit I didn't make good enough use of her in the breeding pen. Now whether you believe me or not, I don't really give a rats ass.
Gregg.
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Gregg
78 posts
Apr 09, 2007
7:07 PM
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Dave,
The only full collective writing of Bill Pensom "is" being compiled by Tom M.
I am also waiting for him to get it to a publisher. I expect that it will be a while given the perectionist putting it together. Hopefully it will be presented in such a manner that we will be able to percieve the growth and subtle changes that came with his maturation into a roller pigeon legend. Should make interesting reading either way.
Gregg.
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motherlodelofts
1698 posts
Apr 09, 2007
8:07 PM
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Gregg , ah never mind LOL
Dave , I had a copy , but for the life of me I can't find it which tells me that the wife put it somewhere.
I have one that Joe Borges lent me here now , very good stuff , in the back is a section of Mc Caullys writings which you can tell is very very Pensom influenced and is very good and touches on alot of things that Pensom hit on but seems more detail.
I keep hearing rumor that Tom is going to do something , and I wish he would , he has so much info that would be a real asset.
Scott
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MILO
308 posts
Apr 10, 2007
10:15 AM
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"You have to be able to "read" pigeons. Kit watching, from liberation through flying and down and in is mandatory. So are the many hours of in coop watching. You can learn more from just being alone with your birds than you can by by bullshitting with other roller fanciers."
This has got to be the most valuable thing i've read in a while...LOL And probably my favorite. The problem with puting in standards of practice for everyone is that every loft is different, and every handler is too. "I do this, therefore so should you", will never work. Even if you have the exact same birds as someone else, it is still a different loft, with a different set of challenges. I think carving things into stone only serves to mystify the hobby in the eyes of the novice breeder. Makes for interesting conversation, but the best kept secret is careful observation of our own birds, and being able to learn from our mistakes.
c
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1314 posts
Apr 10, 2007
10:39 AM
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"I think that we see things differently Brian"
Some day when I grow up to be a big boy and raise the right kind of rollers I'll see things the same way as you Scott?
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motherlodelofts
1702 posts
Apr 10, 2007
2:31 PM
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Enjoy your magical ,full turning , can do it right every time birds .
Mine can't do it , maybe I need to quit looking at them so hard and accept less as acceptable.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2007 2:33 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1317 posts
Apr 10, 2007
2:41 PM
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Why is it so hard for you to believe that there can be some birds out there that do it right every time and every time flown. Who said anything about full turning magical kits? Is it because you don't have/had a bird that does it that you believe no one else can? Of the bazillion rollers flown across this country every year, is it not possible that there is a bird(s) that can do it right and do it every day? I say yes there are some, surely not many, but definitely some. By owning one first hand, I've seen that what you believe can't possibly be true, is in fact, something that can be true.
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motherlodelofts
1703 posts
Apr 10, 2007
3:44 PM
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Because it's impossible that a bird won't throw a glitch here and there , even machines will blip.
Like I said earlier Brian before your smart ass reply, we see different things.
What you consider acceptable and what I consider acceptable are not on the same page.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1318 posts
Apr 10, 2007
3:54 PM
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What is the view like from up there? LOL.
Thanks for the good laugh. Its my B-day today and I needed a good laugh..lol
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motherlodelofts
1704 posts
Apr 10, 2007
4:16 PM
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Any hitch or glitch cancels out the roll and makes it unacceptable, we have stood under the same kits before and there was only one of us excited about a fast rolling birds with a glitch (wing switch).
Scott
PS Happy Birthday
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2007 4:22 PM
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CSRA
134 posts
Apr 10, 2007
4:25 PM
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time out guys take a breath lol
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CSRA
135 posts
Apr 10, 2007
4:25 PM
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Ivan whats up with all that lol
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1319 posts
Apr 10, 2007
4:32 PM
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Um, refresh my memory, are you saying that we stood under the same kits and one of us got excited about a sloppy roller while the other didn't? Sorry Homie, but if you even dare to make a comment to that effect, you need to wake up from that stupor. There is a HUGE difference between acceptable and excellent, yet both can be enjoyed if you take that cold chunk of egotistical steel out of one's ass and realize that enjoyment and appreciation are different than extreme expectations.
You and I see things quite the same things, I just channel my levels of appreciation so they are understandable and not so overwhelming to reality that it turns me into a cold blooded self appointed prophet unwilling to accept anything except what one's own mind's eye sees.
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motherlodelofts
1705 posts
Apr 10, 2007
4:56 PM
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Like I said , we are on a different page on what is acceptable and what isn't .
I have "NO" appeciation for a bird that rolls like a cull , and no matter how slight the glitch , it is still rolling like a cull.
Some days even the finest of birds "will" roll like culls,
what seperates them from a cull is that it has the capability of doing it flawlessly most of the time when the condition is right, I refuse to waiver or make excuses for either good birds or glitchy culls .
I see it one of two ways, it is either all the way right or all of the way wrong ,there is no such thing as almost right.
"Um, refresh my memory, are you saying that we stood under the same kits and one of us got excited about a sloppy roller while the other didn't?"
That is exactly what I am saying.
And these two seperate standards are why you see full turns and birds that "you" think are "good" everytime.
High Horse ? not hardly, I just know the difference and won't accept less as being right.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2007 5:33 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1320 posts
Apr 10, 2007
5:07 PM
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ROFLMAO!!!!!
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Missouri-Flyer
480 posts
Apr 10, 2007
7:57 PM
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you 2 have to be related, as my brother and I "bicker" just like that!...LMAO....I am enjoying it tho guys
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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nicksiders
1565 posts
Apr 10, 2007
8:31 PM
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I have seen the best goof up. I saw Stan Musual chase a bad pitch and Ted Williams do the same. I have watched Michael Jordon mess up on several occasions. This list can go on and on. Athletically the best of us have glitches in thier performances; they are not perfect.
If humans are not perfect in thier performances why would we even begin to believe animals are perfect in thier performances?
Can a Birmingham Roller be faultless in thier performance everytime everyday? It is my belief they cannot.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Ballrollers
759 posts
Apr 11, 2007
3:26 PM
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I see you haven't missed me a bit, Scott! Got somebody else to fill my shoes and spar with, eh? Don't worry...I'm not jealous.
I think Hans' standards are about the toughest I have seen, setting the bar extremely high. I'm not saying that's a bad thing....in fact I am certain that if we all had the birds and no preds, etc. it would be much easier to keep those kinds of standards in place. But practically speaking, I just have not seen many guys with many birds like that. If we are going to have enough birds to outlast the preds and share a few with our friends, etc. we tend to drop those standards a little with regards to what we fly in our kits. When it comes to the stock loft...it's got to be our "best". And that may fall somewhat short of the perfection and the high standards proposed by Hans. Much depends on the quality of the stock you start with, how heavy your predation is, and how long you've been in the game. But do Hans' standards represent the epitome of a breeding standard? I think so... Is it difficult to hold the line?....You bet....Pressures from all sides abound.....All the rest seems to be rationalization for why we have gotten sloppy in our breeding programs.....and why we have lowered our standards.....a little....or a lot. Thanks for the food for thought, Ivan!
JMHO,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2007 3:42 PM
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Alohazona
265 posts
Apr 11, 2007
8:49 PM
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Scott,don't tell me you're out of that MAUI already,lol...wuuuuuuuuusa....Todd
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2007 8:51 PM
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George R.
873 posts
Jul 10, 2008
3:26 PM
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Check out Hans loft rules...
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pure roller
94 posts
Jul 10, 2008
8:05 PM
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This is a great post. I mean tell it like it is. I must put this on the wall in my cage as a reminder when I get tempeted to go a stray. Thanks for the wonderful info.
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