Bundee
19 posts
Apr 07, 2007
7:07 PM
|
Question guys, what do you guys know about color balancing?
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
1306 posts
Apr 07, 2007
8:51 PM
|
You'll get differing opinions on it depending on who comments and what birds they are working with.
|
fhtfire
876 posts
Apr 07, 2007
11:18 PM
|
Bundee,
I have found with my birds that color balancing is meaning less. I know that some do it with there birds and that may be the way there family works. Lots of fliers...say the grizzles are to hot...or yellow eyes are crazy....blah blah blah...that may be just in there family or just in there loft. So..to me...color does not mean a thing.
As for my birds...I look at the over all bird as a whole. I look at the birds roll, the depth, the character, body type, Quality and by just knowing my birds and examining them day in and day out...I put birds together on my "hunch" or "gut" feeling..based on what I know about my birds. It really changes from loft to loft. For example..I have one cock that throws the depth....no matter what I put him on...his offspring are deeper...I make sure I put him on hens that I know produce..wicked speed and quality..but produce on the shallower side....Now...That does not mean that I would not pull a bird from the team that was deeper...but if it had wicked speed I would see what happens. Most of it is "seeing what happens" with new breedings....Moving old breedings is a matter of taking notes and seeing what works and what does not work.
I do not take color under consideration at all....but I have to be honest...some colors I do not like..but I follow the roll...so I feel and it is just me...it is more about knowing your birds and figuring out what you THINK will work with certain matings and what will not...a lot is Gut feeling ... experience and luck.
Again..this is what I do with my birds....but don't think that I did not try the hard with soft color thing...I just did the trial and error and found no differenc..I mate best to best..I pull the best..and fly or cull the rest. Anyway....don't ever take one persons advice..try it all and see what works for you..but you better write it down...or you will forget what worked with what..trust me...been there done that..LOL!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
gotspin7
78 posts
Apr 08, 2007
6:13 AM
|
Paul, well said!
Sal
|
nicksiders
1554 posts
Apr 08, 2007
8:11 AM
|
Color is soooo important when it comes to performance, ain't it? Put two gizzles together and they roll too frequently, right? Two recessive reds together and you have rolldowns, right? If you answered yes to any of these questions then what can I say.........your world is different than mine and that is OKAY.
Color balancing......NOT
Nick
----------
Snicker Rollers
|
Bundee
20 posts
Apr 08, 2007
11:18 AM
|
Thanks for the post guys I was just reading something on Richard Jaconettes color balancing system and was wondering if any other fellow fanciers had a color balancing system,
|
sundance
97 posts
Apr 08, 2007
7:17 PM
|
I have a tendency to put dark birds, like the black or blue checks and bars, with a mate that is ,say a red or red check. The darker birds are supposed to be a harder feather, so I`ve read, and the lighter birds are generally softer feather. The goal here is to have birds somewhere inbetween. Now I`ll be the first to admit I may not fully understand this concept but I believe I`ve read many times on this being a recomended practice.
This is not to say I stick to it completely. I have put 2 reds or a rec. red and a red check together. When doing this I do try to use one of them with white flights and or white tail. I personally do not get as deep a roll out of the red self and I get a lot of roll if they got a little white on them. So basically I`m trying to pick two birds that compliment each other in terms of depth and frequency, as too much of either one is not always a good thing.
I only question myself on these procedures because of birds like those from Scott Campbell which are basically all black. Now are they all hard feather birds?? I think Pensoms book said the hard feathered birds are not frequent because the hard feather hurts as the bird rolls. Is this true?? It sort of makes sence, till you look at birds from a family like Scotts and see the level of competition they have achieved. Hmmmm.... feather or color balancing???? Heck, I think I`ve talked myself out of believing its as important as I thought it was. But I will stick to my program just the same.... Butch
|
Velo99
1046 posts
Apr 09, 2007
4:14 PM
|
Butch,
Thats the thing stick to your plan.
When reading Pensoms book one of the points he made was,by adding the white marking to the hard colors it loosens them in theory. A lot depends on other factors too. Evidently in your case it is on the money and proves the theory in your family.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2007 4:15 PM
|
DeepSpinLofts
53 posts
Apr 12, 2007
4:12 AM
|
Pensom briefly commented about color in his book.
Words of W.H. Pensom:
"In rollers we also have a color problem, for while all colors and patterns roll perfectly we cannot breed for for correct spinning and color at the same time. If we continue to breed for color we lose the finer qualities of the spin."
....and
"If we inbreed for the softer colors such as red, yellow and pure white, we attain a condition of over development. On the other hand if we constantly breed for more vigorous or darker colors we obtain a condition of more flying than good rolling."
Pensom goes on to say this: "My experience has taught me that the best all-around spinners come in the blue check pattern, with red checker and dun close up".
{P.S.} From time to time I go back over some of Pensom's writing's in order to keep things in perspective. I go strictly by the book.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 4:13 AM
|
Missouri-Flyer
481 posts
Apr 12, 2007
5:40 AM
|
Hey Marcus,
What does "by the book" mean to you?
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
DeepSpinLofts
54 posts
Apr 12, 2007
6:58 AM
|
Good morning Jerry...
By the book means to stay principled with a sense of purpose for a strategic goal. Never compromise or cut corners and persevere with honor & integrity to the very end. By the book to me is maintaining good records and writing down important data that I can pass on to future generations of breeders/flyers. I think it's very important to keep records of my failures... as well as my success.
...however
I'm a long way off from where I would like/need to be, but will intelligently engineer an aerobatic master plan spearheaded through selective breeding to meet the challenge. Hopefully by doing this it can give me a competitive chance to do well in the future.
================================================
================================================
By the way Jerry... how you feeling this morning? Rather cold last night and this morning (below 40 degrees Fahrenheit) which is unusual this time of year for the Vaca-valley region of northern California.
NOTE: If you want to change Fahrenheit to Celsius I've listed the formula below.
Formula ===> °C = (°F - 32) ÷ 1.8
Enjoy your day...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 7:00 AM
|
motherlodelofts
1709 posts
Apr 12, 2007
7:31 AM
|
Marcus , you are going to find that success is going to come from a "sence" that you develope with your birds and that books are mainly something just to occupy while you are sitting on the can.
It is like setting up a team for a fly , you can't just put it on paper and say "here just do this" , it doesn't work that way , it is ever changing.
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 7:31 AM
|
DeepSpinLofts
55 posts
Apr 12, 2007
8:13 AM
|
Thanks for the advice Scott.
...so
Read the books while using the toilet ehh....
I never went by the book or had any real solid plan to compete during the 80's... just bred rollers and flew'em.
It's 2007 and things are a bit different now. I'm older, wiser, and more demanding about what I want from my birds. But, things can get out of wack at times (complaints about my rollers from external forces in the neighborhood)... and when they do.... I just pour me a glass of some that cognac and then simply chill.
Keep'em flyin & rollin...
Marcus
Depp Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 8:15 AM
|
rollem42
4 posts
Jun 10, 2007
4:27 PM
|
Sorry to be on the late show with my comments, but , for what it's worth.......... I've read all of the previous posts and they are filled with comments on what WHP says
in his book, which is my Birmingham Roller Bible. There are a lot of people who often misinterpret Pensom's meanings. Hard feather vs. soft feather, hard color vs. soft color etc. has been talked about to death. What seems to be missing in the previous posts is, most importantly of all, roll quality and velocity. These are the main points Bill was trying to get accross. While soft colored birds, ie whites, recessive reds etc are said to loosen up the roll, it's not just the frequency,as some seem to think. It is, more importantly,the velocity/speed and quality of the roll. What is also mentioned in the Bible is the fact that most people have never seen what a true Birmingham Roller
performance looks like. Also, that most of the rolling pigeons of today, and this is still as true today as it was when WHP was around, most of the rollers we see today are Birmingham Rollers in name only. I have had rollers for 28 years now. I started out with the Norwood strain. Cornell and Elliott both knew Mr. Pensom and have continued to perpetuate the Pensom family in the true Birmingham style of breeding and flying. The Norwood family of rollers is still known today as one of the best examples of true Birmingham Rollers and is still being perpetuated as such by
Elliott and Don Norwood (and there are others). Always remember that the true Birmingham Roller is not bred to make up members of a busy kit but has been and is still developed for it's individual performance. This is a fact that cannot be overlooked and one which will never change. So, if you are going to talk about what Bill Pensom said or what he meant, keep it in perspective and strive to produce champion Birmingham Rollers. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with kit competition, always remember to strive for velocity and quality of roll first. Everything else will follow, which is as it should be.
I welcome any comments and/or points of view.
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2007 11:29 PM
|
RO
58 posts
Jun 10, 2007
7:19 PM
|
Welcome to the board rollem42,And nice post.
|
rollem42
5 posts
Jun 10, 2007
9:10 PM
|
Thanks RO, glad to be here and hope to around for a long time. I like the exchange of info.
Anyone else have a response ??
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2007 11:30 PM
|
DeepSpinLofts
105 posts
Jun 10, 2007
10:10 PM
|
I don't know exactly how color balancing for aerial performance works, but can say that it must be tied into the DNA or deoxyribonucleic acid; This is the molecule that encodes genetic information into the young.
Hmm.... let me think for a moment.
Ahh yes, I would say the ro gene is much much important than the color genes. I don't think that the two are closely connected enough in true performing pigeons for color to be of major importance.... but will say that color & plumage does play some role in the loft.
We’ll never know whether that precious little “ro” gene that is the hallmark of the Birmingham Roller pigeon first mutated in pre-10th century Persia or Turkey, or whether it mutated a second time in the Dutch Tumbler or the Flying Tumbler of England (between the 15th and 17th centuries}.
....however
We do know that this ro gene is being preserved today by thousands of roller fanciers in North America, Europe, South Africa, and Australia. It is being preserved in roller pigeons selected and bred for their aerial performance, without any regards specifically to color or show standards.
In conclusion let me add this: The handing down of certain traits from parents to their offspring is what each breeder strives for.... therefore performance and not color is what's fundamentally important here. Breeding the best possible spin +15ft (with control) to the best possible spin +25ft (with control) is probably the best way to get a champion in the loft. Once you have one... stock it and don't fly it!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 10, 2007 10:16 PM
|
J_Star
1018 posts
Jun 11, 2007
7:29 AM
|
I truly believe that Soft feather is a family trait and does not run in all families. Soft color to hard color is a myth. In my family of rollers good and bad comes in all colors. I could not say one way or another.
They say don't breed grizzle to grizzle, I do and I get rollers with w/f and w/t without grizzle markings. I breed two whites together (homo grizzle) and get white offspring that rips the sky with control. I breed self to self also and I get selves and offsprings with white markings. Go figure!!!
Jay
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1381 posts
Jun 11, 2007
7:58 AM
|
Okay, to settle the matter once-and-for-all with your family, I will check in here with a way to test the feather softness/hardness of your birds:
1: Pluck a series of soft/hard primary, secondary and tail feathers.
2: Insert each feather by the Interior Umbilicus upto the Superior Umbilicus into a mounted vise.
3: Gently wrap a lenght of fishing line with a small lead fishing weight to each one (be sure each lead weight weighs the same).
4: Carefully compare and record the degree of bend using a protractor.
Now simply compare the degree of bend in each feather. Be sure to compare soft/hard primary to primary, secondary to secondary and tail feather to tail feather.
After you prove it to yourself, you are now an expert in soft/hard feathering in your family of birds.
Try this test among several families and see if your conclusions are consistent.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Missouri-Flyer
591 posts
Jun 11, 2007
8:02 AM
|
Hey Tony,
Hmmmm, i can think of alot more useful ways to spend my free time...just ask my wife,,,LOL...honey do this, and honey do that...never ends.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1382 posts
Jun 11, 2007
8:08 AM
|
Hey Jerry I know what you mean! LOL
BUT, anyone who really wants to know, now has a method in which to experiment and end the debate once and for all.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Electric-man
323 posts
Jun 11, 2007
8:21 AM
|
Hey Jerry,
Kind of ironic how "I do" can be the shortest sentance in the english language, but yet the longest sentance in life!
Val
|
Missouri-Flyer
593 posts
Jun 11, 2007
2:11 PM
|
LMAO Val,
so true. I wouldn't change it for the world, BUT..!!!!!!!!!
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
Electric-man
327 posts
Jun 11, 2007
2:49 PM
|
I here ya, brother! LOL
Val
|
Missouri-Flyer
595 posts
Jun 11, 2007
5:26 PM
|
Hey Val,
I was near your place last week..I went to Waynoka with the guys for 4 days to ride in the dunes..Was thinking bout ya when I was driving down 412.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
|
rollem42
7 posts
Jun 16, 2007
1:21 AM
|
My attempt to explain color balancing will be limited to my own experience, certainly, but I hope it will be recognized to be based in the information handed down by those who came before me and who were and are more knowledgeable than I am. So,since I feel that I have adequately covered my ass,.....let me begin by saying that color balancing, as well as all aspects of roller breeding, is related to DNA. That is to say that color, type, eye color, quality of roll, velocity etc. are all produced by how the genes match up to give us each pigeon we see from each mating. These unlimited combinations that go into the makeup of each pigeon is a result of how the various genes pair up and match up to form a different pigeon in each egg. This is why each pair cannot produce the exact same pigeon even if they are mated for life. There are just too many random possibilities for exact reproductions to occur. You may have heard someone say that they would sell such and such a
pigeon because they will make another one just like it.
This is not possible and they may very well be selling the best roller they ever bred from that pair. They cannot produce another one just like it. It is genetic impossibility.
Now, to get back on the point of color balancing and hard and soft feather, my interpretation of what Mr. Pensom meant was that because of the various possibilities produced when mating rollers of different colors and feather textures from hard to soft and everything in between, he found that pigeons of the softer feather were usually white,recessive red, yellow and combinations of same. Additionally, this meant that during the dispatch of a high velocity roll, pigeons with softer feathers have a greater chance of these softer feathers coming away from the body and therefore making it less likely to show the perverbial hole which is said to be the mark of the champion spinner and I believe that the harder colored, harder feathered birds have more strength which transfers into greater velocity in the roll. According to Mr.Pensom, the number one quality of the high class roller is velocity.
So, just as the centrifical force of the high velocity roll can pull the softer feathers away from the body, the harder feather can hold it's form and lay flatter against the the body of the fast roller, thus making it easier to see the
hole when viewed from the right perspective.
To finish, since the softer colored birds are supposed to
loosen up the roll with respect to frequency, the balancing of these softer colored, softer feathered pigeons with the harder colored, harder feathered ones is the delicate mix we look for in an effort to produce that frequent performing pigeon which has the qualities of the harder feathered pigeons we know to show a cleaner quality roll.
Finally, it is not an easy endeavor, as nothing is when it comes to breeding quality rollers. As those of us who have continued to look for success over decades can verify "IT AIN'T EASY". For those who have spent less time in the search for success,"IT AIN'T EASY", but don't give up. You will carry on the legacy of the Real Birmingham Roller.
Did any of this make sense to anyone?
Responses welcome.
Greg
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2007 1:22 AM
|
quickspin
638 posts
May 21, 2008
4:09 PM
|
I color balance my pairs and even them out in size.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
sippi
270 posts
May 21, 2008
6:06 PM
|
I dont subscribe to the color balance idea. I think best to best is the way to go. I do look at the balance of the bird when mating them. The biggest problem with Pensom is that his ideas evolved over time. There is nothing wrong with that unless you try to make his writings the gospel. There are a lot of discrepencies in his writings. So which writings do you take as the gospel.
Just my take.
Sippi
|
Scott
627 posts
May 21, 2008
6:35 PM
|
Sippi, you are right to a degree, but much is also taken out of context.
And some he just didn't pen the context all that well early on but got better later on with the same subject where his context of the message was much clearer ,and at times it is obvious that his thinking changed.
As for his book, it wasn't much more than a "beginners" guide , there is so much more to his writings on a whole than that measly little book.
PS there is more to breeding than just to best.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 6:37 PM
|
sippi
274 posts
May 21, 2008
6:40 PM
|
You and I agree wholeheartedly on that point. I think the man was way ahead of his time. I also think he was misunderstood a lot. And if you take what he wrote out of context sometimes you can easily misconstrue his meaning. He was a very deep person. I really enjoy his writings and if you start back in the thirties and follow them all the way to his death you can see that he was evolving his beliefs which means he was progressing.
Sippi
|
Scott
633 posts
May 21, 2008
8:46 PM
|
Sippi, my exact thoughts also, he was very deep where the breed is concerned, I have a collection of his writings.
Another one that blew away on depth of thinking where the birds is concerned and "competion" was Monty Nieble
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|