Velo99
1125 posts
May 24, 2007
6:14 PM
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Thanks for pointing out the flaw in the whole ghost kit system.
In reality if I entered two kits.
My friend who lets me put a box in his backyard. I can enter two kits in his name.
Set an empty kitbox in other yard and my friends says his birds were stolen, I could fly two kits and get credit for 6 kits. Gee I should thought of this a long time ago. I can have my own region with 5 kits and still be within the rules.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on May 24, 2007 6:16 PM
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knaylor
502 posts
May 24, 2007
6:15 PM
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Marty, I have been on the w/c committee when we took care of that problem too. Read the rules and you will see that.
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knaylor
503 posts
May 24, 2007
6:16 PM
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Kenny if you want to cheat like that then go for it. Read the rules and get to know the w/c . Also should we skip your region in the finals??
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MJT1977
17 posts
May 24, 2007
6:22 PM
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" Kenny, 23X2=46 1 qualifier for every 15 kits entered. 15 x 3=45 50% of 46 is 23. How did they not follow the rule?? Read the rule I just posted and tell me where they went wrong???"
What the hell does 46 have to with anything 48 kits entered only 23 flew. Last time I checked 23 was less than 50% of 48, the number of kits entered.
How about this same scenario:
30 fliers/2kits each = 60 kits = 4 quals
29 fly a kit
31 DNF
According to the way you explain it Knaylor, they should get atleast 3 qualifiers still, even though the only put enough kits in the air for 1 qualifier and still did not meet the 50% requirement?????
Marty
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knaylor
504 posts
May 24, 2007
6:26 PM
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Marty, its plain and simple if they can not fly and give the judge a reason why then the kit or kits still count towards their qualifier. Its in the rule if you will read it.
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Velo99
1126 posts
May 24, 2007
6:27 PM
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How can I be cheating? It is within the rules.
Knowingly falsifying the entry by distortion of the number of birds to be flown in competition. Sounds like a cheat to me. The whole ghost kit premise is a cheat. A ghost team in any other sport is usually called a forfeit.
Don`t think I wanna be RD,in fact I don`t think I will fly the WC anymore. I know better than to play against a stacked deck.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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knaylor
505 posts
May 24, 2007
6:27 PM
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What the hell does 46 have to with anything 48 kits entered only 23 flew. Last time I checked 23 was less than 50% of 48, the number of kits entered.
LOL it only takes 45 to meet the minimum number for 3 qualifiers.
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knaylor
506 posts
May 24, 2007
6:30 PM
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Cheating by knowingly enerting false flyers thats how. Plus entering a flyer that has no intension of flying. Heck the w/c makes you fly atleast on kit what about the FF???? Also Kenny why wont you answer my question about your region??? acording to you your region also cheated!!LOL
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knaylor
507 posts
May 24, 2007
6:32 PM
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Kenny what part of this dont you get??
Each flyer is allowed to pay and fly 2 kits but each flyer must fly at least one kit out of the 2 entered. If a flyer has paid for a kit or kits but due to circumstances is unable to fly he must notify the judge as to the reason, or his paid kit or kits cannot be used for the number of kits for a fly-off representative
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MJT1977
18 posts
May 24, 2007
6:34 PM
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Knaylor,
" Marty, I have been on the w/c committee when we took care of that problem too. Read the rules and you will see that."
I knew the problem was taken care of and I believe the same thing needs to happen here. The reason why! Because it did and will continue to happen if not addressed. Unfortunately when competition and glory are involved people find ways to twist the rules in their favor. Now I'm not saying any individual in that region is responsible for this in the least sense, but when a vote on rules comes up and there is a difference of 1,2,3 or 4 votes that can really sway decisions and rulings. That is my main point here in this discussion. I could care less how many qualify per region, actually I want everyone to qualify because when you make it into the finals, even if you bomb, it still a great experience, I know I've been there.
Marty
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MJT1977
19 posts
May 24, 2007
6:36 PM
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" Marty, its plain and simple if they can not fly and give the judge a reason why then the kit or kits still count towards their qualifier. Its in the rule if you will read it."
So as long as they tell the judge they can't fly the kit they are using to get qualifiers then all previous rules don't count??????
Marty
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Velo99
1127 posts
May 24, 2007
6:37 PM
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What part don`t you get Naylor. It is up to the discretion of the judge. Not a rule if is discretionary.Too many discretionary decisions and no experience neccessary for the judges.Hmm starting to look like the government now.
Yes my region cheated and I won`t be flying next season. We have 12-13 flyers and four cheaters. Actually I think they actually had birds to fly but chose not to. I can find out for you from Don.
There were five regions who had over 15 ghosts a total of 96 ghost kits for 6.4 extra qualifying spots. How in the world can that be fair? Oh yeah it is up to the judges discretion.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on May 24, 2007 6:46 PM
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knaylor
508 posts
May 24, 2007
6:47 PM
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LOL looks like you two want to end the W/C??? The rule was put in for two kits for the fly to survive. Its really that simple. No one is cheating not even Kennys region. they are following the rules. Also if the judge thinks its a legit reason for you not to fly then its his call. You guys crack me up. Dont understand the rules and wont read them to understand but will tell us how they are wrong and this fly is full of cheaters. Its w world fly and I guess the whole world is wrong!!
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MJT1977
20 posts
May 24, 2007
6:55 PM
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SO let me get this right:
You can have 15 fliers in a region. OK the region gets 1 qualifier. I talk everyone into entering a second kit to get a second qualifier, 30 kits entered. The week of the regional high winds and rain come through the region and no one wants to fly their 2nd kit because of weather, the judge says OK no problem and then 1 flier has a massive overfly 1 week before the fly and loses a big kit of 23 birds in which 3 of the birds were going to be whittled down to get 15 birds in his second kit, now after this he doesn't have enough to fly either kit. The way you say the rules read this region will get 2 qualifiers and more importantly 2 votes on every WC ballot that year, because they gave the judge a reason not to fly??
Marty
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Velo99
1128 posts
May 24, 2007
6:55 PM
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If it is all discretionary why have rules? The Q and D are discretionary. The number of birds in a roll is discretionary. Rules vioaltions are evidently discretionary as well. 25 regions adhere to them and one doesn`t but gets to keep the spot? Something smells.
I want you to tell me why all these things are discretionary.
If it is the almighty fly of flys and the best in the world,why do the rules suck so bad?
Seems no one can make a decision on the important things but you seem to have some link to the accounting department and knows my region didn`t carry their weight in the funds department and is a drain on the whole fly to the extent it might not even happen next season just because of my suckass region. Therefore we need to have over 200 ghost kits and make up the difference.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Missouri-Flyer
569 posts
May 24, 2007
7:00 PM
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where is Scott during this conversation? He usually gives us some good advise..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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kcfirl
119 posts
May 24, 2007
7:00 PM
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guys,
I've flown in every WC since 2000. I've judged the flies.
Here's the deal:
1- 1 qualifier for every 15 kits entered.
2- Each guy can fly 2 kits.
3- You must fly a kit to be considered an entry.
4- The only exception is if you lost birds between entry and fly day to the point where you don't have enough birds left to make up a minimum kit = 15 birds. The flyer has to explain this to the judghe and the judge decides whether to accept the explanation. I covered this in detail with Steve Clayton who was the fly director when the rule was put in. I had guys tell me how many birds they had and how many they lost and when. Could they lie? Yes. But if I caught them, the region is disqualified.
Here's my input to my RD who is now Scott Campbell:
1- No more excuses why you can't fly a 15 bird kit. You fly one or it does not count as an entry.
2- Enter only 1 kit. Fly the kit.
3- Raise the fee if needed based on everyone entering one kit. Actually I don't care if I pay $50 for one or two kits, cause I only fly one that's the real deal.
4- If hawks take so many birds you don't have a kit, then you had no chance to begin with. Sorry.
5- Go back to needing at least 8 flyers to have a region. If you don;t have 8 flyers, you're entry fee will not pay for a flight to see you. Sorry - get 8 guys. Or, pay the nearest region the full cost of getting the judge from there region to you. Done deal.
Ken Firl
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MJT1977
21 posts
May 24, 2007
7:03 PM
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Knaylor wrote:
" LOL looks like you two want to end the W/C???"
Did I ever say this at anytime? Are you saying that if 1 region doesn't follow the rules and they are reduced from 2 qualifiers to 3 qualifiers this will end the WC. Boy now I do smell the politics, "if we change something or reprimand rule breakers we will go under". GEEEZ I've heard it all now.
Marty
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Missouri-Flyer
570 posts
May 24, 2007
7:03 PM
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well said Ken,
Except the "raising the fee" comment...LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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MJT1977
22 posts
May 24, 2007
7:09 PM
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Ken,
You wrote:
"I've flown in every WC since 2000. I've judged the flies.
Here's the deal:
1- 1 qualifier for every 15 kits entered.
2- Each guy can fly 2 kits.
3- You must fly a kit to be considered an entry.
4- The only exception is if you lost birds between entry and fly day to the point where you don't have enough birds left to make up a minimum kit = 15 birds. The flyer has to explain this to the judghe and the judge decides whether to accept the explanation. I covered this in detail with Steve Clayton who was the fly director when the rule was put in. I had guys tell me how many birds they had and how many they lost and when. Could they lie? Yes. But if I caught them, the region is disqualified"
You forgot 1 thing: 50% OF THE KITS ENTERED MUST BE FLOWN!!!!!!!!!!!! Plain and simple.........
One more thing are you gonna tell me of the all #2 kits entered in this region not one.... not ONE........... flew their 2nd kit. This stinks to high hell!!!!
Marty
Last Edited by on May 24, 2007 7:11 PM
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Velo99
1129 posts
May 24, 2007
7:11 PM
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Alright enough of this.
We have other problems as a sport which might need our expertise and immediate attention.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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MJT1977
23 posts
May 24, 2007
7:16 PM
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Velo99,
It was just getting good....LOL. Don't give up yet. And this one has a lot more posts Ha.. Ha..
Marty
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Velo99
1130 posts
May 24, 2007
7:20 PM
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Marty,
To answer the original question, it is 50 percent of the required number of 45 to get the 3 qualifiers.There fore it is 22.5 to get three and they got 23. Done deal.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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MJT1977
24 posts
May 24, 2007
7:44 PM
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Velo99
I guess it kinda does read that way, but it still isn't that clear about it. In a sense, the term ghost kit was dropped, but it still has the same effect.
Marty
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kcfirl
120 posts
May 24, 2007
8:09 PM
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Marty,
that's the way it is per the rules. In the past guys would enter kits with never any intention of flying and they would count toward qualifiers. That, at least, has been stopped.
Ken
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dave
318 posts
May 24, 2007
8:32 PM
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1. make correction to the rule. take out the part about letting the judge know if you cant fly and the 50%.
2. no more DNF's. everyone must fly a kit: at least 15 birds.
3. Qualifiers will be based on only how many actual kits are flown.
4. find judges that can take more than 7 days off to judge
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knaylor
510 posts
May 24, 2007
9:33 PM
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You can have 15 fliers in a region. OK the region gets 1 qualifier. I talk everyone into entering a second kit to get a second qualifier, 30 kits entered. The week of the regional high winds and rain come through the region and no one wants to fly their 2nd kit because of weather, the judge says OK no problem and then 1 flier has a massive overfly 1 week before the fly and loses a big kit of 23 birds in which 3 of the birds were going to be whittled down to get 15 birds in his second kit, now after this he doesn't have enough to fly either kit. The way you say the rules read this region will get 2 qualifiers and more importantly 2 votes on every WC ballot that year, because they gave the judge a reason not to fly??
Yes you will still have 2 qualifiers, but only 1 vote per region.
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knaylor
511 posts
May 24, 2007
9:38 PM
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Did I ever say this at anytime? Are you saying that if 1 region doesn't follow the rules and they are reduced from 2 qualifiers to 3 qualifiers this will end the WC. Boy now I do smell the politics, "if we change something or reprimand rule breakers we will go under". GEEEZ I've heard it all now.
What regions are not following the rules??? Where does it say that both kits have to be flown???If you eliminate the 2nd kits. then you will cut the w/c fund in half. then what do we do???? How do we make up the money??? Only by charging more. So in order to to get the 2nd kits flown then the qualifier fly will be longer. i know in our region if the fly is longer then the cost will go up. Once that happens then the entries will go down. All makes sence to me...
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Velo99
1132 posts
May 25, 2007
5:28 AM
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Kevin,
So what you are saying is money is more important than fairness and sportsmanship. Did you quit driving because gas went over 3 bux a gallon? What you are saying is the guys are willing to pay for two kits and fly one but not to raise the rates and just enter one kit and not as many q spots. Thats the crux of the situation. Now if my figures are correct. 210 ghost kits over 26 regions adds,gee a whopping 121 dollars to each region. Who do you think you are bullshitting here Kev? I will pay an extra 20 bux to fly on a level playing field.Hell, I would pay the whole $120.00 for my region.
You have asked repeatedley if I wanted to shut down the WC fly. Now thats a bit extreme. The governing body has created a huge mess with these ghost kits. Now they gotta clean it up. If they gotta raise the fees,they gotta raise the fees.
The more I talk to you about this the less I want to fly in competetion. Whats the point when regions can buy qualifiers.Personally I feel that once the situation is straightend out it will make for a higher quality and fair competetion.Probably a lot of guys who don`t fly because of the skewed number of q spots is an unfair advantage to the larger regions could and will come back into the competetion arena.
I don`t feel I have anything to prove now. I made the finals my first year and my birds flew very well in a 20 mph wind and scored 197 this season.
Oh yeah do you remember when I first started? You had a high and mighty attitude them too.
You said I would be lucky to ever make the finals with my atitude. I told you I would make the finals in 5 years. I made it in two.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on May 25, 2007 5:50 AM
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motherlodelofts
1825 posts
May 25, 2007
6:29 AM
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You guys don't get it , I was also on the committee when we put all of this in place with the intent to eliminate ghost "flyers".
We screwed up though and left a loop hole when we put in place "legitamite" excuse in order for a flyer to not fly if there is a problem , this has been abused or has the potential to be abused , and I think that this is being addressed after this fly.
Here is the way it works.
It takes 15 kits for a qaul.
New regions must have a min of 6 flyers , they must pay for 15 kits and can do this for 3 years.
Each flyer can pay for 2 kits but must fly at least one unless there is a legit excuse.
The reason that each flyer can pay for two and only fly one is because many regions don't meet the 15 min as they don't have the flyers ( Kenny, your region is one of those)
In order to keep it "fair" it must be like that accross the board ,an example is 8 paying for 2 is 16 , 16 paying for two is 32 samo samo.
Ok here are the facts , most regions are carried by the money coming out of Calif. due to the large number of condenced flyerss , and only takes one plane ticket in and one out , in the W/C it is Calif and S Africa which carry the fly finacialy .
And the fact is many top flyers don't make it in because it is so competitive in many of the large regions , expecially out of S Ca. and I am sure this holds true in S Africa also.
This thing is set up as fair as it gets , what you guys don't like is the apples for apples , or seems to be.
Scott
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Velo99
1133 posts
May 25, 2007
9:01 AM
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Scott,
You`re saying the same thing. The larger regions get rewarded for simply being large. If the guys don`t want to pay a larger per kit fee to play then they don`t play. The loopholes have to be closed and the situation addressed. I am not knocking the guys who actually have two kits to fly. It`s just the ghost kits. The RD should know who has been hit by disease preds and thieves. If one has two kits to enter the RD should allow then to if not....
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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knaylor
512 posts
May 25, 2007
9:03 AM
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Kenny, you just dont get it!!!
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motherlodelofts
1827 posts
May 25, 2007
9:45 AM
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Kenny , I am assuming that you are considering an unflown secont kit a ghost kit , by your way of thinking you guys would not have a region , if eight guys can make a qaulifier (15 paid) Then to keep it even a region with say 16 flyers have to be able to do the same.
These large regions have many more qaulifiers because they have many more flyers , they aren't buying anything just as your region isn't.
The the rule does need to be tighted up where at least one kit has to be flown no matter what , that way it is apples for apples accross the board including the smaller regions.
Scott
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