j .wanless
233 posts
Jul 03, 2008
11:24 AM
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hi all
ken i think your prob right to a degree .as you know in mbro we have always bred for quality.so there for we tend to lack a little in tight kitting + activity.over the years i think we looked so hard for that speed +quality we dismissed the kitting to a degree.although our birds do kit they dont kit as tight as we would like them to.we do get the big breaks but not as consistant as we would like.
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3757
803 posts
Jul 03, 2008
12:52 PM
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"I would bet money that most of the top fliers of today...would whoop his ass in flies and he would be more of an equal not a legend." What a statement Paul.
The opinion that there are individuals who have improved past Bill Pensom's goals are whom? Also, to set the record straight the term Pensom birds did not signify that he bred them at all. The Pensom family of pigeons were those that were bred to the standard and were derived from the original imports (bred to standard). Up until 1970 there were no other names associated with the Pensom standard bred birds except the name Pensom rollers and I am not talking about the show dual purpose birds at all but the flying birds. They were called Pensom rollers for decades and none of the old timers stuck their name behind the birds others did that. Perkins, Smith, Plona etc said that they bred Pensom rollers and anyone that knows anything about the history of the breed knows that. People are playing with words and are skewing the data. There are many who knew Bill and some say good things and some say bad. People say bad things about Christ so you know they will say bad and good about Bill. There is no significance in that at all.
Let me ask a question, and this is not for argument but analysis. I have heard people say we need to "expand our view" for many years. I even heard this statement from a famous flyer in Southern California . This flyer was once a stanch Pensom advocate and he now bashes the Pensom pigeons. When I ask the question that I will ask in this post he can never answer the question but starts talking about what so and so is doing, what winnings so and so is not doing and that has nothing to do with the question. Now, who has expanded the view of the highest velocity spinner higher than has been documented, demonstrated and described by Bill Pensom? I was raised in rollers as probably were you and many others but I was taught that the ultimate goal was to produce the highest velocity spinner possible and to have as many as possible in a team of 20! I was fortunate to have Bill Patrick and Bill Yurga and others take up so much time with me. One person that I will go to heaven thanking is Ralph Hilton. They can say all the garbage they want about Ralph Hilton and his pigeons but he had a tremendous amount of knowledge and he did take time with me and many others. (this is not to name names but help understand what I am saying)
Bill preached that you must understand the high velocity spinner first before anything else and so did his predecessors. Who has expanded or came up with a higher goal than than that of producing the highest caliber spinners in a kit of 20? I do not know anyone that has expanded the highest goal to achieve but I am man enough to learn if you know someone that has expanded the ultimate goal please let me know.
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2008 12:57 PM
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kcfirl
454 posts
Jul 03, 2008
1:31 PM
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Hi LaRon (I think),
you asked "who has expanded the view of the highest velocity spinner higher than has been documented, demonstrated and described by Bill Pensom?"
My answer is that I don;t think anyone has.
I do think there are a number of guys who have surpassed Mr. Pensoms documented, demonstrated, and described kit of perfoming pigeons.
Bill was after the highest possible velocity spinner. Others have been focused on teams working together to the utmost.
They are different, albeit related goals.
I think men like Jerry Higgins, George Mason, Monte Neible, Don Oullette, Heine Bijker, Kenny Billings, and yes even Jaconnette, took the birds they received and made them into strains of pigeons which perform better as kits, than those Pensom had.
I am not trying to bash Pensom, he just had a different goal.
Can there be fast pigeons that rack up big scores? Yes. Can there be great teams of birds that are also fast? Yes.
However, the best team of pigeons will never be composed of birds that are on averaged as fast as the bird bred strictly for ultimate velocity, and nor will the bird bred for ultimate velocity be the best kit pigeon.
Let's use the automobile as a parallel. Are there cars that accelerate very quickly that also have a high top speed? - yes. Can there be cars that have a very high top speed that also accelerate qucikly? - yes.
BUT, the fastest accelerating cars in the world will never be the same as the ones that have the highest top speed. Why? Because the aerodynamics, gearing, tires, torque vs. HP, and many other factors must be optimized for each to reach the maximum. They are related and there are cars that do both well, but the fastest, deepest strain of pigeons will never be the same strain as the strain that can break together more frequently and in bigger turns.
Another example: Heine wrote at some length that he was always looking for the team performer. The bird that broke from the front or middle of the kit every time other birds broke. These he selected to move his particular strain forward. He did not necessarily prioritize the absolute fastest, deepest pigeon breakig from the back of the kit and perhaps taking a bit longer to regain the kit.
We all make choices when selecting our stock birds that lead us toward the promised land, and believe we are each striving for our personal preference along the continuum.
That is all I am saying. Obviously there is no other pigeon man that had a greater impact on the sport than Pensom. Afterall, the vast majority of bird in the country flying as many Birmingham Rolelrs as the rest of the world combined are flying birds descended from his birds.
That is all.
Regards,
Ken
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3757
804 posts
Jul 03, 2008
2:47 PM
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Ken - It is me (LaRon) and yes he did have different goals and those are the same goals that the current PRC members have and others as Herb Sparkes and a few other individuals. This does not mean ours are better but different. You are the first to recognize that the goals of some can be different and I love it. The problem is that people feel that everyone has to have the goals of the majority today. Another interesting thing is that people feel that if you are not part of what the majority are doing you are not doing the right thing. I never could understand this sort of logic. The largest roller club in the world does not dictate what is a true roller neither does the participants. The may have true rollers but they do not dictate (At least to some of us). Bill Pensom has no equal and many will bash him as one of the statements in my above post but many are carrying on his goals which we have made ours. We respect others for what they are doing but when we discuss these issues it always turns negative to those who wish not to or do not understand our goals. Please send me a private e-mail. I am on your linked.
LaRon
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2008 3:27 PM
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nicksiders
2916 posts
Jul 03, 2008
7:02 PM
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Paul,
Dick Butkis? Would not be as good as today's linebackers? Butkis was possessed then and would be today. He talked me out of going to the U of I without saying a word to me. I was a visiting high school prospect and just watched practice. The man was insain! His insanity would allow him to prevail even today.
Just thought I would throw that in....it don't mean a pissing thing(LOL). But it is the truth...I went to Mizzou instead of Illinois.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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gotspin7
1421 posts
Jul 03, 2008
7:09 PM
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Great topic fellas! I really have enjoyed it. Fellas, not everyone that flys competition focuses on kitting alone.lol
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Sal Ortiz
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Scott
868 posts
Jul 03, 2008
7:37 PM
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LaRon, when can I come down to see these birds ?.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2008 7:40 PM
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elopez
1567 posts
Jul 03, 2008
8:25 PM
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Let me know too LaRon, Spanky told me you had some real nice ones. Scott will treat us all out to eat at Bennihanas after the fly...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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3757
805 posts
Jul 03, 2008
8:38 PM
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Efren - Thanks and Tell Spanky thanks for the compliment. Send me an e-mail.
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2008 11:52 PM
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smoke747
1251 posts
Jul 04, 2008
12:30 AM
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Earnest Middleton flew some of Laron's birds and they were good. They reminded me of the birds Arnold Jackson flew in the early to mid 90's.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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3757
806 posts
Jul 04, 2008
4:38 AM
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Keith - Thanks for the compliment. I do not know if Earnest is still raising rollers but if he is tell him hello for me and that I have yet to locate Blue. He will know what this is. I really appreciate it Keith.
Efren - I received it and thanks.
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2008 4:53 AM
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ezeedad
658 posts
Jul 04, 2008
11:22 AM
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Shadow,
Again you are right on the money...!! you wrote...
"Now regarding what Pensom wrote,the fact that its there for all to see,and judge as they see fit,this is more important,than our own personal opinion of it,it would be catastrophic if it wasnt there."
Paul G
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Scott
873 posts
Jul 04, 2008
12:13 PM
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(Shadow,
Again you are right on the money...!! you wrote...
"Now regarding what Pensom wrote,the fact that its there for all to see,and judge as they see fit,this is more important,than our own personal opinion of it,it would be catastrophic if it wasnt there."
Paul G )
Catastophic ? Maybe for the Pensonite sub culture who's sole experiance comes from what they think they read, but in real life where these birds are concerned it plays no little or no part, that is reality,in fact the Pensonites have done great harm to the breed to a degree,at least they did for a time, but it is a "put em up and let the birds talk " world now.
With that said he wrote some great stuff and I love reading and studying it and I have a lot of respect for him and the birds he imported in, although if someone took everything he wrote as set in stone they would pay a heavy price for it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2008 3:31 PM
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ezeedad
661 posts
Jul 04, 2008
2:28 PM
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Scott,
Interesting that you wrote this..
"Catastophic ? Maybe for the Pensonite sub culture who's sole experiance comes from what they think they read,"
This is nothing more than a mean spirited attack on the people who actually understand what they have read. If you think that someones only experience comes from reading a book, you must be losing your grip on reality.
I think that you have read the book, but skip the parts that don't give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about what YOU are doing.
Deep inside you know that your birds would be better if they showed the hole. So you want to ridicule others for their insistence on it as being a feature of this breed.
oooooooooooooooo...............ooooooooooooooooo
"but in real life where these birds are concerned it plays no little or no part, that is reality,"
Well, I don't know of any better source of information for rollers that his book... Can you tell me one?
It has played a huge role in the understanding of the breed, at least in the U.S.
oooooooooooooooooo................ooooooooooooooooo
"in fact the Pensonites have done great harm to the breed to a degree,at least they did for a time, but it is a "put em up and let the birds talk " world now."
Funny you should say that, because I think that the kit competition has caused "the higher virtues of the breed to suffer sadly," (Pensoms words) and maybe to even become extinct.
Pensom was rooted in the past..and he understood and respected the great breeders who preceded him. He didn't want to disregard their values. He could see, tho, that the breed was being changed by breeders who didn't understand and appreciate these birds for all they can really be.
So some "Johnny Come Latelies", think that they have the power to change the breed, and then to claim that they have improved on it? That is a lot of blowhard ego.
oooooooooooooooooooo...............ooooooooooooooooooooooo
bird rolling w/ hole---shrinking---opening to show hole Ever seen that Scotty,,??
Also Scott,
The man's name was Pensom... That's with a M...
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Scott
874 posts
Jul 04, 2008
3:26 PM
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Just your normal Pensonite,all talk ,no fly,
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2008 3:37 PM
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George R.
863 posts
Jul 04, 2008
3:27 PM
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Paul
So now its not about colors any more, now it sounds as if you are saying if the birds dont roll with the hole they are not a good example of a Birmingham Roller .
A kit of twenty Birds rolling showing the hole is nothing but a PIPE dream in my opinion...
The Novice
George
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Scott
875 posts
Jul 04, 2008
3:40 PM
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P.S. As for his book, you gotta be kidding, that doesn't even scratch the surface of his depth,not much in that little paper back.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
876 posts
Jul 04, 2008
4:17 PM
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George, the funny thing is,these guys preaching the hole aint got it either,it is just something to pound the drum about without actualy to knowing how to play the drums LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
865 posts
Jul 04, 2008
4:27 PM
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The score sheets dont lie .. any one can pick up a NBRC Bulletin and see who's really flying Birds and who is to busy reading books.
The Novice
George
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2008 4:34 PM
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Scott
877 posts
Jul 04, 2008
4:49 PM
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(So some "Johnny Come Latelies", think that they have the power to change the breed, and then to claim that they have improved on it? That is a lot of blowhard ego.)
Your right Paul,my mistake, I need to follow your lead and go find an Almond from the pet store to breed into my family, then start a "project" for Muffs , then I'll sit on the computer and talk about the little hole,no need at to actualy fly them ,much easier to just talk about it.
Man, what a revelation, no more getting up at 5:30 to get birds flown ,only to come home and do the same after work, year in and year out.
No more driving hrs to see others birds around the state, no more flying out of state to stand other countless kits of birds accross the country, Canada and Hawaii, sheez Paul I think you are on to something !!!!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2008 5:18 PM
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JMUrbon
573 posts
Jul 04, 2008
6:44 PM
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I have read many books on Rollers and personally Bill Pensoms book doesnt even rate in my top 3. I give all the credit to Bill for importing the birds that we have today but I have seen more than one loft ruined because somebody was trying to breed stricktly by paper that had Pensoms name on them.
I take the stand that we have all had a part in moving this breed forward. If we have not done that than we have failed and I dont feel that is that case. I also agree with Ken that there are lots of different goals and lots of different accomplishments.
Now that being said do I think the birds are better today?
YES!! There is nothing but opinions out there to change my mind and until somebody can show me hard evidance I will stick with my opinion. I was not privelidged to see Pensom fly a group of birds but I have been priveliged to see a whole bunch of other great breeders of my time fly some great groups of birds. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
880 posts
Jul 04, 2008
7:32 PM
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Joe, I doubt the best today are better than the best of the past, these birds are only capable of so much before the wheels fall off, there is a treshold that that just physicaly or mentaly cannot be stepped over.
I would say the numbers of good birds have to be up though due to the popularity and sheer numbers of flying competion and the seriousness of the flyers.
These aren't the birds that I knew as a kid thats for sure,even if I put on my rose colored glasses.
Those spouting off about the good old days and how they only breed for the highest quality that no one else has now have a problem, talk don't fly any more and someone just might knock on the door and say "show me" uh uh uh do what ? LOL LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1422 posts
Jul 05, 2008
9:08 AM
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Scott,
Then when you say show me....then the excuses...um...I just fed them...um the moult....um...they are out of shape...um...I am on lock down...um..to hot...um to cold..um They are used to the mornings....um...I have heard them all....come to my house...and I will put my birds up....um...unless the wind is 30mph....lol.....anyway...just having fun.
Nick,
I know that old Dick was a crazy sob him and mike Singletary are the original "crazy linebacker eyes". But he would have to be crazy to go up against the monsters on teh field now....could you imagine him going up against a Junior Seau or a Ray Lewis....LOL...but I know that he would put the hit.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Windjammer Loft
343 posts
Jul 05, 2008
10:54 AM
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W@yne....I agreed with you 100%. And I might add that he WAS not or IS not the Ol'mighty of rollers as I see it. Their were many many more men in the past that did good for the birmingham roller and many since his passing that have done them justice too. Just my thouhgts on this subject.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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JMUrbon
574 posts
Jul 05, 2008
5:33 PM
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Scott you are correct. What I meant to say or should have said is that there are more of the good ones around these days. And the overall depth average has increased also. That is at least in kit competitions. You just dont see the 200-300 footers anymore. At least at the lofts I visit I don't. I dont get a thrill out of watching a 300 foot bird so I dont go looking for them either. Most that I have seen were just awful to watch for much more than 40-50 feet anyway. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
881 posts
Jul 05, 2008
10:10 PM
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I had a two hundred footer today , you can have it,boy it's ugly LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
954 posts
Jul 06, 2008
12:31 AM
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A 200 hundred footer ehh...
I got'em out here at Deep Spin Lofts rolling whole football fields.
No chit!
However.... I like my "SUPER DEEP" aerial performers with quality roll in the 60ft-80ft range. Anything beyond those depths and you are seriously just asking for trouble.
I have a Tortoise Shell Plona Cock that rolls anywhere from 10ft-60ft real crisp and a Pearl-eyed Black Self Reed/Plona Hen NBRC 0790F Dark check RH1319 -- Stocked For Foundation** that has done 60ft magnificently in the air on several occasions and has never-ever bumped.
She's a beauty and looks quite similar to Blacky (80ft) owned by Kenny Easley of New Mexico.
Click on this link provided here and scroll down to the bottom of the webpage to see this gorgeous 80ft roller of Ken's.
Marcus
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2008 12:35 AM
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