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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
"Best Practices" Training BOP-> Rollers Off Limits
"Best Practices" Training BOP-> Rollers Off Limits
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1420 posts
Jun 29, 2007
9:26 AM
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Okay guys, here is one for the “best practices” document the NBRC should put out:
Have you heard this one? I learned this one quite by accident when a bop landed on my young bird training pen and perched there for quite some time; over the next several days he buzzed and landed on my aviary trying to catch a roller to no avail.
After many attempts and with no reward for all his efforts, he has not gone after my birds again accept for the occasional half-hearted swoop at a kit from time to time.
When he does make the occasional swoop, I will call my birds in ASAP and lock them up for several days.
By inadvertently eliminating his early success at catching a roller, I believe he was conditioned to believe they are not easy prey to catch. Nature calls on him to go after easier prey of which there is plenty in this area, thus he tends to leave the rollers alone.
Can you train your local hawks to leave your birds alone by working from the assumption that bop are creatures of habit?
1: Stock an aviary in your yard with your rollers
2: Eventually the rollers normal habits will attract the local bop
3: He will come down and land on the aviary and not be able to get in, he will try this more than once
4: Leave the bop completely alone. Do not let him see you. You must stay in compliance with the MBTA
5: Over time, he soon learns that he cannot get at them
6: He tends to leave them alone to seek easier prey
Conclusion: he has harmlessly taught himself through repetition that it is fruitless to try and catch your rollers even when flying because he has learned by repetition at the aviary that he cannot get at them, try as he might.
This simple and safe technique will obviously not harm the bop and will, I believe keep you in compliance of the law while being a good responsible citizen and doing something proactive and safe.
As I thought about this I remembered the old story where you put a piece of glass in an aquarium to separate a fishy predator from its fishy prey. The fishy pred tries as it might to get at the prey, but over time he learns he cannot get at it.
He eventually stops trying to get at it at all. When the glass is removed, the 2 fish can co-exist side-by-side and the normal fishy prey is left alone.
Old wives tale???
If the fish and game department has some input on this technique, they are invited to offer their comments and instruct us if neccesary, no stings attached.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2007 9:35 AM
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bman
315 posts
Jun 29, 2007
10:16 AM
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Hey Tony,
You might want to mention that you better have some pretty small wire on that aviary.I have had coopers kill birds right thru 1" x 2" mesh!
P.S. I was just on the NBRC website and there is a pic of that "elusive ruby" you were looking for a while back.LOL
Sorry I couldn't resist.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Steve_uk
193 posts
Jun 29, 2007
10:35 AM
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Just hope the hawk tells his mates
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birdman
342 posts
Jun 29, 2007
10:49 AM
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Tony, it MIGHT work if you only have ONE resident bop in your area, and a young one at that. All he knows is that he can't get into your loft. The older, wiser ones will know better. They are older and wiser because their skills are more polished at getting the job done.
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1417 posts
Jun 29, 2007
11:03 AM
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Nice try Tony. ;)
Doesn't work here. They bomb my hookbill and finch aviaries every day from Sept through April, many catching them through the 1/2x1 wire and eating their heads off.
Won't work with the falcon either.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1421 posts
Jun 29, 2007
12:14 PM
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Hey Ron, the mesh on my aviary is ½ inch by 1 inch. In addition, if a bop clings to the side, the birds can fly to the other side. I have watched them do it. No pigeon has been cut or devoured yet.
Now as for that elusive “ruby”, are you talking about that white bar on the home page? LOL
Hey Steve, the conditioning would have to occur with each bop that might stop in, he is not going to tell his friends about how hard it is to catch those rollers!
Hey Russ, it’s been 2 years, he is still around. He is not getting any younger. No problems so far. How long before he is older and wiser?
Hey Brian,
I guess I wasn’t clear, the idea is that they CAN’T reach through wire and get anything no matter how long they try. An animal WILL give up and move on. Its instinct and hunger are powerful motivators. Your posts indicates that your bop are constantly fed via the aviary, why would you think there was a deterrent there?
I am convinced that an animal is controlled by instinct and stimulus, once it has responded to the stimulus to feed and finds the current target too difficult, it will move on. The key is to NOT feed the bop once, or if it happens, it would be rare to catch a second meal (locking down breaks any feeding habits that might develop)
From what you posted, sounds to me like you have setup a wonderful daily head-soup smorgasbord kitchen with all those hookbills and finches. The call of the wild in your neck of the woods must be: “COME AND GET IT!”
In California I dealt with the same bop as the local roller fanciers and they were constantly taking losses while I wasn’t. I just flew smarter than they did.
To anyone, it is important to figure out a way to work with your environment. If your neighboring fancier wants to feed the bop, find out when he flys and feeds them just fly your rollers after that.
If this seems simplistic, it probably means it works. The simple answer is usually the right one. (Occam’s razor)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1418 posts
Jun 29, 2007
12:51 PM
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A soup kitchen? I have over 500 pigeons and probably several hundred cockatiels, budgies and assorted other hookbills. Do you really think I let them out? They don't come and eat every day, but they try..every day. I am for someone coming up with, and working an method that is productive for them. But don't for one second think that what is the scheme of things in one guy's yard is the same across the natural enviroment. Have you seen a Cooper catch a panicing budgie and eat it through the wire?
Sure the thing to do is simply not fly. One day in the near future that will be in the cards for all of us. I raise show pigeons too and I don't fly them, so when the time comes that I can't let pigeons out to exercise, I will at least have something to fall back on.
I had one female adult cooper try for two months to get a pigeon several years ago. She was amazingly crafty, but wasn't successful. It took her that long to finally capture one. Where was the "I give up, I can't catch them no more" then? There are no absolutes when it comes to nature. Just as no two rollers roll alike, no two bop hunt alike. Have you ever seen a falcon sport kill five pigeons, just for the fun of it and not eat one? I have. No fish aquariums or wire cages are going to disensitize those kinds of killers.
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Shaun
503 posts
Jun 29, 2007
1:01 PM
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Tony, your theory seems to assume that a given BOP will move on if it's unable to get to a guy's rollers. However, there are many types of hawk (for example) which stay resident in an area, so long as there's an available food source. The preditor simply attacks whatever is available; if there's plenty of other birdlife around, the hawk will take its pick each day. However, if the rollers come out to play, it'll try for one of those, having being attracted by the kit. If they're then locked down because of an attack, the hawk simply turns back to its usual food sources, which attracted it to that habitat in the first place. The hawk will still be there when the kit is let back out.
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1424 posts
Jun 29, 2007
3:24 PM
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Hey Brian, your birdfarm, you have a right to do whatever you want, but 500 pigeons, several hundred budgies and hookbills? You got a special dynamic going on and you don’t see why you might have a bop problem?? My head is hurting…
You said you lose birds through the aviary. A meal to a bop means he will be back, if he eats again he will be back again and again, even if not successful every time.
Sounds like your setup is not conducive to the scenario I described previously. What if your solution was to eliminate ALL but a hundred birds, divided up into separate lofts with flight pens and follow the scenario described in my previous post? Would you do it?
I have described a little of my situation in 2 different states, I am in the middle of the country where there are more bop here than in California, up to now, in the nearly 2 years I have been here, I have had fewer incidences of bop attacks. I must be the luckiest fool around.
Or maybe its because I try to preserve my stock by being careful when to fly, observing the wild birds, adjusting the time of day I fly, flying 1 kit one day and 2 another, etc…
Can my situation change tomorrow? Of course it can, then I will deal with that then, but why do you come across as critical of information that might be useful to someone else and dismiss it out of hand?
I think you are the one assuming that just because it doesn’t work for you it won’t for anyone else.
You forget that discussion boards such as this are useful to share information, knowledge and experience. Just because you don’t like the information, don’t dismiss it.
Based on your posts, you apparently have no solutions, so how can you sit there and say what will and will not work for someone else?
Using your logic, all you can say is “if you have 500 pigeons, hundreds of finches and hookbills all condensed together, there is no legal bop solution”.
If you have a glass jaw, don't become a boxer.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1425 posts
Jun 29, 2007
3:36 PM
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Hey Shaun, no, what you call a “theory” is merely the fact that if a bop cannot get to your rollers, he will go somewhere else to find food and eat; when he ranges out to find food, that’s your window of opportunity to fly your birds for 30 to 40 minutes. Once done, get them back in ASAP.
If you have a resident bop, acquire a trapping permit to relocate it. If you cannot get a permit and there are no other legal remedies, for all practical purposes forget about flying performance breeds, you are done.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Velo99
1197 posts
Jun 29, 2007
4:12 PM
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Tony,
I think this is when one would start contacting the wildlife services administration(s) to try to get the government to legally move it. Sometimes you have to get past the guys who can say no,and get to the guy who can say yes. If every flyer who has a problem,follows the appropriate channels and wades thru the red tape surely a legal means can be found.
MTC
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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bman
316 posts
Jun 29, 2007
5:17 PM
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I have to agree with Brian.As far as coopers are concerned no two are the same.I have seen ones that only take birds on the wing...usaully a adult female....and others employ all sorts of tatics.I watched one last year for twenty minutes walking around the loft on the ground trying to figure a way in.The loft is elevated about 8" inches off the gorund and he even crawled under twice.I have posted earlier to fly between 10-2 HERE from september to may is a death sentence.You can fly around them but you have to study the preds as hard as you study your birds.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1426 posts
Jun 29, 2007
5:48 PM
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Hey Brian, a long thoughtful post. I appreciate it.
For brevity sake, I will say that my broader point is that in general every roller fancier will have to survey the terrain in his backyard and beyond and develop legal strategies to overcome the challenge of bop when flying performing rollers (that tree-line off in the distance you mention was a strategic move, part of my business plan and was why I selected this piece of property).
My first post in this thread is merely one idea which included a series of steps to accomplish it. I figure it is a given that everyone will understand I am not trying to say that this is the only way to rid oneself of bop. It may work for some and may not work for others. But what is the alternative to trying new things to overcome any current bop challenge?
Man is at the top of the food-chain. But with the restrictions civilization has placed on being able to protect ones property, man, whose intelligence is far superior to any bop, has to develop legal asymmetric strategies to cope.
Obviously, everyone’s circumstances are unique; this is why offering legal and perhaps unique solutions is a way to overcome the challenge. Based on your experience, you have concluded my previous idea will not work for your situation. That’s fair for you. You cope by accepting the losses you suffer as part of the game.
The next guy who has 50 birds that includes a kit or two may not be able to lose a high percentage of birds. This guy will have to become creative to find legal ways to overcome his bop problem or stop flying performing rollers altogether.
My reason for starting this thread was to try and generate innovative and thoughtful but legal ideas and ways to cope with bop. My suggestion is just one of many.
In my time with rollers, the bop challenge is the biggest one this hobby has ever faced. We better start putting our heads together and come up with responsible solutions so that no one has to face the long arm of the law.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Hector Coya
172 posts
Jun 29, 2007
7:00 PM
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Tony
I live in so, Cal,so like everyone els i have a Hawk problem.
I just wanted to ask you or anyone if they have tryed spraying some kind of deterent on your Rollers, maybe like Vinager,or Garlik. That would not harm the Hawks but it might give them a bad taste therfore after a kill or two they might go hunt something els.
Just an idia but i think someone can come up with something that will smell bad enough that the BOP will quit hunting a sertain area.if the birds taste bad it might work.
Hector C
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Missouri-Flyer
669 posts
Jun 29, 2007
7:44 PM
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While at the feed store today I stumbled into a racing homer guy. He was at the counter behind me and overheard me place my order for my feed, and asked if I was a pigeon breeder. I advised him that I raised BR's and he introduced himself.
During our 20 minute conversation the subject came about the arrest that we are so familiar with. He advised me that the conversation is just as strong in the racing world as it is in the roller world. He gave me his thought, which will only come out of my head after death of myself, but he mentioned that the racing guys have talked the along the same lines as far as an attorney goes.
Just thought I would pass it along that every breeder that is aware of the situation are trying to come up with a game plan.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2007 7:45 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1427 posts
Jun 29, 2007
7:45 PM
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Hey Hector, now those are ideas that probably do not violate the MBTA. As for myself, I have never tried it. A person who takes frequent losses would have to be the one to try it and may get more immediate results. Should someone give them a try, let us know if you notice a drop off in birds taken.
Why couldn’t the NBRC keep a qualified attorney on retainer and run these ideas and more past him to ensure they comply with the MBTA? These ideas could then easily be included in a best practices document.
If the fish and game department has some input on this technique, they are invited to offer their comments and instruct us if necessary, no stings attached.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1428 posts
Jun 29, 2007
7:57 PM
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Hey Kenny, I agree, moving up the food chain is the way to get results. If a guy on the phone tells you “no”, ask to speak to a supervisor, if he says “no” ask to speak to his supervisor, all the way up the chain.
Since California has the biggest number of NBRC members and took the largest pounding, they should start making phone calls to their congressperson/s and ask for help in getting permits or whatever.
The NBRC should show us the way and distribute materials to its membership as to how best to do this.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
670 posts
Jun 29, 2007
8:03 PM
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this is straight from the Fish and Wildlife Service website..Re-read the last sentence..How far do the BOP's have to go so that their caretakers "NWS" take control and control them from killing our birds!
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The Migratory Bird Treaty Act is the primary legislation in the United States established to conserve migratory birds. The act prohibits the taking, killing, or possession of migratory birds unless permitted by the Secretary of the Interior. Authorized take and possession is focused on a limited number of allowable activities such as research, rehabilitation, education, depredation control and other purposes.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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