Steve_uk
196 posts
Jul 01, 2007
12:24 PM
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1 Heine Bijker 5-8-5-12-6-6-11-5-11-18-7-5-8-12-6//15-13-12-9-15-17-5-6-16//18-17-10-6-15-14-10-16-14-15//15-13-6-14-17-15-12-7-15 1.4 1.5 2,284.80 Holland Region
Now we all no heine has good pigeons and he knows how to fly them but come on.
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nicksiders
1840 posts
Jul 01, 2007
12:59 PM
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That is a record, ain't it? That is.........well, that is all I am going to say. The judge has a hard job that few of us will volunteer to do and I am not going to show my stupid ass over it.
They must of been exceptionally good and I was pulling for my friend Dave Vang, so I am dissapointed for Dave and happy for Hiene.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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W@yne
535 posts
Jul 01, 2007
1:04 PM
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Yes i am sorry for Dave Vang because i thought he had it in the bag. As for the score id rather not say anything because if i did say what i thought i would probably offend some people with my opinions on that score.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Skylineloft
70 posts
Jul 01, 2007
1:14 PM
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GREAT JOB Dave Vang.
Your are champ here this year.....
Ray
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2007 1:14 PM
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dave
333 posts
Jul 01, 2007
1:20 PM
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Thanks guys for all the support. Sorry I won't be able to visit all of you guys next year, lol. I was expecting someone to take over the lead and I knew that Europe would be the place to do it. Great job Heine. Heine knows how to really work his birds and that is something I will be working hard for. Glad the X is off my back, lol.
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2007 3:20 PM
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W@yne
537 posts
Jul 01, 2007
1:43 PM
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Dave
I don't think we have seen the last of you I'm sure and we will meet up with you one day. You have done your country proud. Well done.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
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Mongrel Lofts
297 posts
Jul 01, 2007
2:05 PM
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Hey Guys,
That score maybe out of line but that Heine Bijker is one Bad Bad Man!! He is top of the mountian bar none!! CONGRATULATIONS Heine.. Your doing your best to drive that point home, we all have good rollers but our teams are SHIT!!! LOL KGB
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
60 posts
Jul 01, 2007
2:10 PM
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Well guys that is alot of points ..
Icant count that high..lol what is the highest score ever in world cup fly ???anybody knows ???
well dave your still the U.S.A. CHAMP
YOUR BUDDY RUDY
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1422 posts
Jul 01, 2007
4:10 PM
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Heine is a good man and a great flyer of rollers...but that score is Ridiculus. I actually feel sorry for him as I know he wouldn't have scored them that way. But I'm sure he will relish the win as anyone naturally would.
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ROLLERMAN
139 posts
Jul 01, 2007
7:05 PM
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I dont know any thing about how to score in the world fly. is it my under standing this kit had 48 scoreale breaks in 20 min
al
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Missouri-Flyer
681 posts
Jul 01, 2007
7:25 PM
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Al, he had 43 breaks. The last 2 sets of numbers your seeing are his quality and depth multipliers, then the last numbers "2284.80" are his final score...UNBELIEVEABLE!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2007 7:25 PM
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motherlodelofts
1872 posts
Jul 01, 2007
7:51 PM
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They sound like they may have been off and over the edge .
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2007 8:51 PM
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birdman
343 posts
Jul 01, 2007
8:07 PM
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I wonder if the judge has any regrets for awarding that score?
Russ
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George Ruiz
314 posts
Jul 01, 2007
9:26 PM
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if he reads all these negative post im sure he will think twice the next time someone ask's him to give up a couple of months of his time to judge a fly.
WAY TO GO GUYS !!
George
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2007 9:31 PM
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rollerman132
121 posts
Jul 01, 2007
9:43 PM
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There gos the world cup LMAO, what did he feed them crack?
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trevsta65
145 posts
Jul 02, 2007
2:10 AM
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all hail the king lol, what a score
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jim
16 posts
Jul 02, 2007
2:19 AM
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This is he's Qualifier
Regional Fly Report
Qualifier
Heine Bijker Judge 1 9-7-5-7-6-9-6-5-5
Judge 2 9-14-12-10-13-8-9-7-14
Judge 3 12-6-5-9-7
1.3 1.33 173.68
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motherlodelofts
1873 posts
Jul 02, 2007
5:46 AM
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Your wrong George , one of the main reasons that he judged the W/C last time (his 3rd) was show that this type of judging should'nd be happening in the W/C , he talked to me in length about it , last time was the 3rd time he has stayed in my home , each time has been 2-3 days and he knows his way around the house well and even knows my dogs names when he gets here , so yes we have gotten to know each other.
The only thing that happened here was a mockery was made of the W/C and "very liberal" echoed through the entire fly
Any kit that is so over amped that even shows that kind of activity is dicey as to reality and in most probability was off from normal, qaulity and actual breaking no doubt suffered.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 5:51 AM
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kcfirl
128 posts
Jul 02, 2007
9:11 AM
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Congrats to Heine for having the best team of pigeons so far. And to Brian McKenzie - a man that judges according to the WC rulebook without his own prejudice.
Cheers!
Ken Firl
PS. Wait till they get to Ireland - then you're really going to see a big score!
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kcfirl
130 posts
Jul 02, 2007
9:35 AM
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Scott,
yeah right. He traveled the world on our $ because he wanted to fix the sport. Please.
The way to fix the sport is for the WC management to write down the rules that describe what they really want scored.
If Heine feels the way you say he does, he should make it public, not whisper it in your ear just before bedtime.
Firl
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maxspin
91 posts
Jul 02, 2007
9:45 AM
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Congrats to Heine.
Remember Heine didn't the team, all he did is open the door.
It has been obvious from the first scores that we had a liberal judge here. I'll bet he was a little surprised when he added up the score!!!
Ken,
Your whisper remark is out of line. I made a point of driving down to meet Heine when he came through last year. He had no reservations of speaking his opinions LOL.
Keith Maxwell
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W@yne
538 posts
Jul 02, 2007
10:07 AM
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Like Scotty said this is making a mockery out of this WC fly. I hear Brian is a great guy i ain't disputing that, But great guys don't make great judges. Come on hes a laughing stock. This guy is judging only as he thinks is right but this guy needs to be educated to the WC rulebook. Come on guys this fly is the biggest and most prestigious Roller competition in the world. I know this guy is scoring water falling and very loose birds you don't need to be Einstein to work that one out. I think Heine will be embarrassed with this score. I feel sorry for Brian i really do i think this fly was way way out of his depth to be honest. I know the guy has given up 2 months of his time blah blah blah and i know judges have to start somewhere but it shouldn't be the WC.I spoke to one of the finalist only this morning from the UK who is switching his A team around with his B team to go for activity instead of quality in the fly over here. Is this the way forward guys.? Not for me it ain't anyway.
I know Heine fly top quality birds i ain't disputing this. I have sat back and tried to keep my big mouth shut on this one but i couldn't hold back any longer sorry guys.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 11:48 AM
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nicksiders
1842 posts
Jul 02, 2007
11:57 AM
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The question I have to ask is was all of the judging on a level playing field? I truly believe it is. **** the score; what has it got to do with anything? If everyone was judged fairly and the best kit won who cares what the score was!
It is all relative.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 12:09 PM
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motherlodelofts
1874 posts
Jul 02, 2007
12:11 PM
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Word for word Ken.
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W@yne
539 posts
Jul 02, 2007
12:23 PM
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Nicksiders
So does this mean a competitor in a WC fly should prep his birds to suit the judge and not the flyers standards? If yes that is pure bullshit because that is whats happening over here right now as we speak.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 12:49 PM
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rollerman132
122 posts
Jul 02, 2007
12:27 PM
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Pensom warned us this would happen; remember the over cooked red badges he brought over, the same birds that got him kicked out of PRC. LMAO
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Shaun
506 posts
Jul 02, 2007
12:29 PM
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Nick, I'm not sure that remark sits easily with the many Pensom observations you've supplied recently. As you well know - and are often fond of telling us - it's about maintaining standards.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1423 posts
Jul 02, 2007
1:01 PM
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Wayne, in the big picture, designing a kit to be possibly more conducive to a particular judge's style of judging is actually one of the competition tools. I say this in a vague manner because on one hand, we expect that every kit in every fly will be judged according to a specific standard of performance. But on the other, if given the opportunity, a seasoned flyer can and sometimes will take advantage of a judge's known trend and style and try to shape his kit in a direction that will hopefully play into his favor. This is where those who fly at the beginning of a finals run are at a slight disadvantage compared to those later in the series who, by various means of communication, can find out how a judge is judging and make adjustments to his kits to gain an edge. Your example you cited above about some in your area is a prime example. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if Heine knew about the judge's style beforehand and tailored a kit that he thought would give him an advantage. I certainly cannot fault him or anyone for making those adjustments. I certainly would, and have in the past. I've been asked after a judge has been through my area or even judged my kit, what is the judge like? I'll give my interpretation of what I saw and offer advice to how to give another guy a good shot. One time we had a judge come through that was rather loose. I told a friend who was flying a few weeks later to "just make them frequent" and you will do okay. On the opposite end I've seen some more stringent judges come through and when asked later in the same scenario as above, told the friend to make sure the kit is clean and crisp, the guy is look for quality and not awarding any freebies. It goes both ways.
But what we really want, at least most flyers I think, is to have good, middle of the road judges that call what should be called without getting too tight or loose so that they have to explain themselves. The current judge was a very cool guy, but he will be one that will find himself having to defend his observations.
Yes, I agree that a lot of this is just plain rubbish in the big picture, and shouldn't be the way it is. I don't have an answer as to how to fix it.
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W@yne
540 posts
Jul 02, 2007
1:56 PM
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Brian good post and i know exactly where you are coming from. Just seems like a sorry state of affairs that flyers have to get their birds ready and look at their birds the way the judge will look at them even if the judge is a loose judge that seems totally against what i and most other Rollermen are trying to achieve. Like I've stated before the WC is the most prestigious roller competition in the world.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
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nicksiders
1843 posts
Jul 02, 2007
2:22 PM
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I think the competitors have to be first trained what the standards are and train thier kits accordingly. What a judge sees or doesn't see is another matter. The point I am trying to make is that competition is fair as long as everyone is playing on a level field. That said, no matter what the scores may be the important thing is the best kit wins.
I have been and continue to be an admirer of William Pensom, but I have never said I believe he is dead on right about all that he has ever said. I will say that there has not yet been anybody else that has a better insight about the Birmingham Roller than he had.
Nobody is perfect; not even me(LOL)
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 2:30 PM
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nicksiders
1844 posts
Jul 02, 2007
2:27 PM
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In following on BMC's post; I have known flyers to pull certain types of birds from thier team(s) based on who was the judge. So, there can be a little modifications to your kit depending who the judge is.
Good post, Brian.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2007 2:29 PM
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kcfirl
131 posts
Jul 02, 2007
3:14 PM
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Keith,
the whisper remark is a joke. Heine has stayed at my place a couple of times also and Scott is a close friend.
My point is that Heine's score of Monty's kit speaks much louder about what his opinion is of how to judge than any persnal conversations he has with individuals.
He should publish his opinion in the bulletin if he wants it to be maded known that his score of Monty was wrong and what his opinion on judging and scoring a kit of BR's is.
Firl
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kcfirl
132 posts
Jul 02, 2007
3:18 PM
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The SA guys and region are more consistent than any other region that I'm aware of. They have clinics where they all stand around and compare scores and what is a break, etc.
They judge by their best interpretation of the written rule as laid down by the WC committee. I commend them on that.
we have others who say they will not score if it does not appear instantaneous. That is not what the rules say.
If we want only instantaneous appearing breaks to be scored, the rule should be changed to say that and judges should score accordingly.
It's when every man takes matters into his own hand and acts as congress does, each enacting their own set of rules, instead of merely being judges according to the law as they are supposed to, that the sport as a whole suffers, newbies are confused, and we look like rank amatures in the sporting world.
Firl
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knaylor
513 posts
Jul 02, 2007
5:13 PM
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Ken, this should cover your question about istentanious breaks. They call it in unison. How fast is a 1/2 second??
7) Scoring. It is mandatory for the region to furnish a timekeeper/scribe for the fly-off judge for each finalist. The judge shall simply estimate and record the number of birds rolling adequately in unison for each break involving 5 or more. “In unison” means that the last bird involved must begin performing within ½ second of the first, and that all continue performing together for a least ½ second. The suggested minimum depth for scoring is 10 feet. Afterwards, the judge shall multiply those numbers by 1 for (5-9), 2 for (10-14), 3 for (15-19) and 5 for 20. Those results shall be added together to produce a raw score. Next the raw score shall be multiplied by a quality factor of 1.0 for “adequate’ to 2.0 for “truly phenomenal” based upon the judges overall impression of the average quality exhibited in all of the turns scored. Likewise, a depth or duration factor of 1.0 to 2.0 shall be multiplied to produce a final score. The judge shall announce the final score before leaving
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motherlodelofts
1875 posts
Jul 02, 2007
5:31 PM
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Exactly Keven, the 1/2 second rule is from the first bird to go and the last bird.
That in my mind is in unison , those not scoreing actual breaks and useing the 1/2 second rule as an excuse to score waterfall are the one's NOT judging by the rules in my book.
Not that it makes any difference , the NBRC removed it and the loose judges still judge pure activity and don't pay any attention to timing.
As for Ken Firles remarks ,yes we disagree on some things and poke at each other here and there, and yes we are good friends , it has no affect on our friendship at all , we don't take it that serious LOL.
Scott
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Richard
18 posts
Jul 02, 2007
7:17 PM
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Very interesting. Come on guys. We all know the loose judges are called back time and again to judge our kits. How many time is a tight judge called back. almost never. Big scores makes most flyer puff out their chest and request the judge come back. Some times judges have very bad case of diarrhea and then we all whine. Other wise it is OK. Love this. Heeee Heee Go ahead guys I am ducking
Richard
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nicksiders
1847 posts
Jul 02, 2007
10:30 PM
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Richard,
I think you will not get much of an argument from most of the guys on this site. I think most of the flyers in here want a judge to go strickly by the rules and standards.
You will not have to duck(LOL).
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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jim
17 posts
Jul 03, 2007
12:17 AM
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FOR THOSE OF US THAT BREED AND FLY QUALITY. LOOKING AT THAT KIND OF A SCORE WE HAVE ALL GOT THE WRONG BIRDS, SO DOES THAT MEAN WE MUST GET RID OF OUR BIRDS AND START OVER AGAIN? THEN WHEN SOUTH AFRICA AND ENGLAND FLY EVERYONE WANTS TO CRY THAT THEY HAVE THE WRONG BIRDS. COMPARED TO THIS YEAR THE WORLD CUP COMPETITION IS DIFFERENT TO THE SOUTH AFRICA ENGLAND FLY. I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO FLY WORLD CUP CAUSE I BREED FOR QUALITY NOT ACTIVITY.
YOUR FRIEND IN THE SPORT.
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Spud
124 posts
Jul 03, 2007
4:15 AM
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Jim, fly your birds, see what the judge thinks, see how your birds compare with the other kits he has judged. It's subjective, yes, but most things are. Different years, different judges, keep at. Over time quality will tell.
Spud
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Richard
19 posts
Jul 03, 2007
4:35 AM
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Jim
If you breed for quality you will do all right in the WC. You might not win it as there are lot of Politics involved with the WC. Flying in the WC is like learning how to ride a bicycle, or swiming. If you never try you will never learn. Everone knows in their heart what their kit did and that is what counts, not how big a score one gets.
Try it and you will wish you had flown sooner.
richard
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Richard
20 posts
Jul 03, 2007
4:39 AM
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nicksiders
Tell me the judge is tight and I am happy. the tighter the better. Judging loose birds does not improver the quality of our wonderful little birds. All it does is produce more junk.
Richard
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kcfirl
135 posts
Jul 03, 2007
9:59 AM
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Kevin,
I don't have any question about instantaneous breaks. Brian and the South Africans judge the breaks based on their interpretation of the WC rule you posted.
Others seem to think the breaks should appear to be instantaneous.
All I am saying is I feel Brian is judging the birds based on what he beleives the meaning of the WC rule is and I think that is commendable.
Scott - why don't you submit a proposal to change the wording to "appear to begin rolling at the same time and go for a minimum of 10 ft or 1 sec".
I think that wording or something like it expresses what you and Kevin feel should be scored much better.
Just be ready to take an even greater shellacing from the UK and Euro guys who's birds break together far better than any pensom or JAc based kit I have ever seen.
Let me make it clear that I don;t want to see instantaneous breaks only and agree with how Brian is scoring the birds in terms of calling breaks. I only differ on depth and quality multiplier bonuses awarded. I feel their should be a greater spread in Q and D multipliers between barely scoreable and really good fast, clean, deep, kits.
Firl
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Steve_uk
198 posts
Jul 03, 2007
11:32 AM
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Why judge any different to the english way at the end of the day its a english breed?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1424 posts
Jul 03, 2007
11:58 AM
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Actually Steve, it is also Persian breed depending on how far you wanna go back...lol.
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spinner jim
124 posts
Jul 03, 2007
12:22 PM
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Brs have polish blood lol,that explains why they dont understand my english,where are the true brs -answer- still over here,unsulloed and pure lol,jim uk.
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W@yne
543 posts
Jul 03, 2007
12:25 PM
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Come on Brian lets not go down that road. Persian people where only famous for making carpets not for flying Rollers Lol.
Spinner Jim where have you been hiding when we needed you Lol.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2007 12:27 PM
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Steve_uk
199 posts
Jul 03, 2007
12:31 PM
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Lets go as far back as Birmingham Hence Birmingham Roller.
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spinner jim
125 posts
Jul 03, 2007
2:36 PM
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Hello,Wayne and Steve, i have been busy lately thats why you havent been in contact,i have just successfully crossed a br with a lobster,the young have developed one massive claw on one side ,the bops are shit scared to come any where near my kit when i let them out lol,see you later,jim.
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SiDLoVE
19 posts
Jul 03, 2007
3:47 PM
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Congrats Heine Bijker
I believe if there was a tight judge and Hiene's score would had been 1000 points... he still would had won it! At the end of the day is getting the WINNNER!!.. Joe Roe had 53 breaks year 93.. and won the W/C... Hiene had 43 breaks ..UNDERSTAND BIG BREAKS...TEAM WORKING BREAKS!!! WE all need to focus on having our team of birds to work and break the same !! Heine isnt a newcomer...hes the Best flyer in the world 2 time W/C Champion and now 3 time w/c if it holds...!! Lets not discredit his excellent job for breeding and flying rollers. The Judge was consistant ...weather he was tight or loose judge....it was Consistant !! (my view)
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Spud
125 posts
Jul 04, 2007
7:11 AM
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Well said Sid! It's good to remember that this is just a game, a hobby to be enjoyed, and if you win the whole shootin match, that's gravy!
spud
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