No-LimitR
53 posts
Jul 07, 2007
5:43 PM
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For those that have had expierence with flying rollers what do you guys think about stability? Can we say that a bird of 1 year has finally reach it's stability in the air or can a younger bird at say 5 to 8 months be stable in the air. What has been your expierences and at what age were your youngest rollers stable. I am asking this because my young ones are Finally rolling and I'm just curious. Tou
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belle
266 posts
Jul 07, 2007
7:00 PM
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I just pulled a 7 month old hen today, most would say that is to young but her roll was real nice, good Q and D, I wish I had a whole kit of them. If they just started to roll I would give them at least 3 or 4 more month. I would have not pulled that hen but if I lost her I would behind , so if you can keep them in until a year that would be better.
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big al
241 posts
Jul 07, 2007
7:31 PM
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Hi no limit,
The answer is actually both. It really depends on the family. Really good birds continue to get even better over time.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1427 posts
Jul 08, 2007
9:08 AM
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Stability is nothing more than a term we used to place our own description upon a bird. It is only for the duration the bird has flown as once it is locked up, it doesn't matter. Each person will have a different idea of what stability should be, and often there will be a large degree of separation between two different people's ideas about it.
I've seen five year old pigeons finally become unstable just as I have seen birds become unstable by the end of their first week of flying. The time flown should have no bearing on whether or not a bird is stable. It either is, or it isn't, and any savy flyer will be able to tell whether a bird is good or overcooked.
This year I had a hen start spinning fast and hard at about a true 2.5 months of age. She got a little deeper and a little less frequent. As a challenge I moved her to the A team to see what she would do. She molded herself right into the middle of the kit where she only rolls on the breaks and is probably one of the best three or four spinners in that kit. She is the epitome of stable and has never, ever bounced or even did a flip down low. Oh to have a bunch like that.
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motherlodelofts
1879 posts
Jul 08, 2007
9:22 AM
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Brian , I disagree with you in your first paragragh , as a bird matures the read on them gets easier and easier on which way they will go "most" of the time , time flown most certainly has a bearing on prooving stability or not , Other than what I am describing below never do I get birds that fall apart on me once I know what they are.
But of coarse there are exceptions and family traits do play in.
One example is birds such as this
"This year I had a hen start spinning fast and hard at about a true 2.5 months of age. She got a little deeper and a little less frequent. As a challenge I moved her to the A team to see what she would do. She molded herself right into the middle of the kit where she only rolls on the breaks and is probably one of the best three or four spinners in that kit. She is the epitome of stable and has never, ever bounced or even did a flip down low. Oh to have a bunch like that."
When I get such birds as this ,which I will here and there , they will allways come down on me in the second season.
Up to that point there isn't much change in them from when they come in , to when they just fall apart , and they fall apart on me sudden , in other words if they are tight fast and 25 foot at 3 mo , at ten they are the same ,and at 12 no change ect. , but then it is only a matter of time, it's odd .
I'm not saying this is the case with that bird , but in my family I can expect it.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2007 9:28 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
706 posts
Jul 08, 2007
9:35 AM
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Brian,Scott,
I had a prime example of this type of bird just this week. I never seen this bird even do a single flip, then last week the bird, being 5 months came into the roll hard and fast. I noticed her within a 3 day period go from a very frequent 20 foot spin, to 40 foot, then on the 3rd day, hit the ground after spinning thru a tree at 100 feet.
This bird was an excellent bird up until that day. It did survive, and I feed it in a seperate cage for 2 days, reflew it today, and when it reached 50 to 60 foot up, it ground pounded again..She did live, but not after today is over..
I have 1 of her full siblings from 05 and it is a nice bird, in everyway..Still flying it.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1880 posts
Jul 08, 2007
10:47 AM
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Jerry , when I have a bird just coming into the roll the last thing I want to see is tight with a little depth.
This tells me that the bird is locking up.
I want to see a little wingswitch which shows me that the bird has the capability to control it , and as they become more comfortable with the roll the wingswitching becomes less and less until gone.
If they continue to wingswitch then I consider them what they are,culls.
If they do come in tight and fast with a little depth and don't over come it quick they end up with problems ,again, this trait is with "my" birds.
And this also goes hand in hand with why a tight gene pool is important , the parameters of traits are consistant for the most part , if nothing else it helps take out some of the guess work.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2007 10:48 AM
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nicksiders
1856 posts
Jul 08, 2007
11:20 AM
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I have seen too many birds that looked good in thier first year turn into crap thier second. I think you got to see the bird in thier second year before you can make any decission on what they are in any catagory of performance. Don't get into a hurry to pin any label to them.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Velo99
1213 posts
Jul 08, 2007
11:43 AM
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Jer,
Some come out of it and some don`t. Had `em go both ways.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Hector Coya
176 posts
Jul 08, 2007
12:13 PM
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You guys talk about the second year,who cears about the second year,by then you should have 3 more kit boxes full,
We in So, California dont have the luxery to fly the same bird that long do to the BOP.
I lost 65 last year and on my way to about the same this.i just lost 3 of the best rollers in my A team this week.
The times they are changing to compete you have to have birds come in early and last the season,after that you have the next kit younger and ready to do the same,thats just the way it is.
i like to breed if all my birds lasted 2 years i whould have to breed evrey other year.
Hector Coya
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motherlodelofts
1882 posts
Jul 08, 2007
12:30 PM
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Hector , if I couldn't fly old birds I would raise Fantails , young birds don't impress me.
I would move if I had that many problems, to just put birds out to slaughtered is nothing short of cruel
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2007 12:32 PM
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W@yne
553 posts
Jul 08, 2007
12:45 PM
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Scotty
Surely not fantails, I call them roof shitters lol.
Dewlaps are the future if getting hit bad accordingly to Ste Buck you can fly them and have them back in yer loft within 5 mins and very very fast birds to watch. At least you can get some entertainment in watching them.
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Hector Coya
177 posts
Jul 08, 2007
12:49 PM
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Scott,if young birds dont impress you you have to come to my house,or get another family,i score areound 350 on the average in my club flys so they must be impressing someone,LOL
Hector
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Missouri-Flyer
708 posts
Jul 08, 2007
12:53 PM
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I understand Scott,
I breed a very limited number of these types of birds a year. Thinking back, I believe this is 1 of maybe 4 in 4 years that has done this. As far as the wing switching goes, that comes natural to my birds, and they do that most of the time..LOL..
Kenny,
I posted a question of this type in the winter due to one of them doing as this bird did. After he did it the first time, which was coming in to land, I locked him up and fed him for 3 days..Since then he has turned out to be a good bird, and never did it after that 1 time..This one is just a true roll down!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1883 posts
Jul 08, 2007
1:59 PM
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Hector if you think throwing points from some clown at me is going to impress me, you are wrong.
Every time someone throws some magical points at me it just leaves me shaking my head.
Few kits are worth three hundred on thier best days let alone a kit of youngsters , at least in my world, sorry but I am not that easily impressed.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2007 2:23 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1428 posts
Jul 08, 2007
6:39 PM
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Scott, my point is that because one of us decides one of our birds is "stable" doesn't mean much in the big picture. I know that you scrutinize your birds when it comes to selection for the loft and I can bet that most of, or even not any, were what you would call and unstable, or not time proven bird...yet...you still get some, maybe not a slew of them, but some that are unstable or don't last. Sure we want to take every precaution in order to feel that we are shaping our birds to our desires and have control over the breeding and performance outcome.
The general assumption should be that one can expect less unstable birds over the course of a bird's expected flying lifetime if one stays away from the overcooked birds or unproven birds. This is us feeling as though we are doing our part, and in various ways will see results that are closer to our ideal in that regards.
I still believe that the determination of being "stable" is just a label attached by the owner. Everyone's determination will be different, and everyone's determination of that status will change over time.
Questioning stability isn't as easy as other issues we have to govern with our birds. For example, eliminate the selection of non-kitters, and by and large you will greatly lessen the number of non-kitters you raise. Eliminate the wing-switchers and floppers, and a person will raise less of them. etc, etc.
The question of stability is far more intricate and uncertain due to a wealth of factors that may or may not be involved. An example of which would be the persons who comment in regards to a young bird that has just come into the roll and is rolling deep or rolling into a tree, they by the nature of our discussions, will quickly label the bird as unstable. But when a person really gets to know not only his pigeons, but general roller expectations, he should realize that not every roller comes in the same, and there is a good chance that the bird's ability to control what just hit him will catch up in quick time. A lot of bird's deepest rolls and most frequent rolls are in their first month of rolling. Mine certainly tend to shallow up and get less frequent as they mature. They become more stable, or more mature and eventually many have to be toyed with a bit to get them to be as frequent or even as deep as they once were.
I know you will possibly disagree, but I am a firm believer that in order to breed more good ones, you have to have some heat, which equates to getting some with stability issues. We have to straddle the control fence...too much one way and we have serious stability problems...too much the other way and we have too much control.
I don't like it when I get a roll down, but I seriously don't get many at all out of 100 raised in a year. Only one so far this year, out of 107 banded and flying. Some of my best producers to this day were a little edgy at times. They usually produce maybe one out of ten that will be as edgy as they were.
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motherlodelofts
1886 posts
Jul 08, 2007
7:22 PM
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Brian , I actually get a higher percentage of good frequent birds than ever before.
And I get far fewer birds with stability problems of any kind.
Think about it , what does heat mean ? weak charactor with too much roll impulse ? (that is mostly it) that same roll impulse on a strong chararactor bird does what ?
No I don't thing that you need unstability for plenty of roll , I think that it is a false reading because in the end you are still ending up in the middle of the road when it comes to good one's and the rest are ,well you know.
Brian there was a time I could have dropped this onto the "hot" side , or the stiff side for that matter.
But what I have gone after is the stong charactor birds with a heavy roll impulse ,which is still work in progress , but the progress has been moving forward.
I have had hot birds and hot families , I can't stand them and see it as a no brainer short sighted breeding principle.
We now have a few trying to mould fly rules around this garbage , why ? because such birds can't hold up and kitting and landing early is an issue.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1429 posts
Jul 08, 2007
7:41 PM
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Scott, we will just have to agree to somewhat disagree on this one. I still stand true to believing that the label of stability being based on a bird's length of time being flown will vary from person to person and their desires, thus defining a certain length of time as being basically irrelevant. I base most of this off of my own experiences over the years with my own families. Some of my best producers were flown only six or seven months just as some were flown two years.
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Hector Coya
178 posts
Jul 08, 2007
9:14 PM
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Dose it mater if a bird becomes unstable in the second year,
if it worked good for the first seosson and was a big part of your A team ,let it rolldown in 15 months,who cears by then you should have another to take its place.
There is a guy in my club that hasnt scored a point yet but he keeps telling me his birds are late developers he said wait till menxt year,how about today?
next year half of those will be fed to the Hawks.
we only have 2 more flys this year.
My opinion, Scott dont get upset im just playing with you.
Hector C
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1435 posts
Jul 09, 2007
4:29 AM
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Hey Hector, I flew young bird and old bird teams YEAR ROUND, in Bellflower, California (between Long Beach and Downey) from 1993 until summer 2005. In that time I lost less than 20 birds to bop.
When some new undisciplined local flyers started moving to the area in about 2002, thats when the bop became more intense and I had to start locking them down during the fall and winter months, however, these new guys continued to fly.
They would take losses on Monday and fly Tuesday and then cry Wednesday about losing so many birds. LOL
Now I have been flying here in Missouri since January 2006 and have yet to take a single loss due to bop, even though bop live in the area.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1436 posts
Jul 09, 2007
4:57 AM
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Hey Tou, stable is stable as stable does. Rollers are stable until they are not. In the early days when I first started developing my Ruby family, I would get my share of birds that were too hot, bumping on release and landing.
Eventually I figured out it was smart to breed for stability and now I breed toward a good balance between heat and control.
In doing this, I purposely did not select really deep birds for breeding. Eventually I found my birds rolling consistently 20’ to 30’. Now in 2007, I am breeding birds I believe will get me to really deep (40’ to 60”) birds with the control I like.
I like what Scott said about wing-switching, I see it as a bird that tends to have more control of his flying and rolling abilities. I think that when a kit is changing direction, some birds will adjust the roll so when they come out of it, they are flying the new direction of the kit.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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No-LimitR
54 posts
Jul 09, 2007
8:20 AM
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Thanks everyone! Even though there are disagreements about certain things, every post I read I gain knowledge from. I appreciate everyones posts. Tou.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1439 posts
Jul 09, 2007
8:53 AM
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"Dose it mater if a bird becomes unstable in the second year,
if it worked good for the first seosson and was a big part of your A team ,let it rolldown in 15 months,who cears by then you should have another to take its place."
You gotta be kidding , right ?"
Hey Scott, I am still trying to get my mind around this! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Hector Coya
179 posts
Jul 09, 2007
3:46 PM
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My point was that if a bird shows everything you want in 12 months somtimes its better to put it away or it may not make it till next seosson.My kit is from febuary,they are working great for me and as i lose them to the hawks i move another one up.but in so,Cal.the lose to BOP is so high that the kit keeps recycling itsfels,by next year i dont think ill have much of this kit anyway.
They have to come in early and by the 6 month point have to be at ther best or close to it.
And im not going to uproot my kids and move away from the family,(cousins sisters mother father,friends ) just to fly my birds,
My priority is to keep my family close.
Hector C
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J_Star
1072 posts
Jul 10, 2007
5:13 AM
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Hector, you don't need to explain why!! Each has his own. If I was in your situation, I would do the same.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1440 posts
Jul 10, 2007
7:13 AM
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Hey Hector, I guess the point I was trying to make was that I too flew in similar conditions to everyone else in Southern California, however, unlike guys all around me, I did not take the losses they did. ( I flew my birds all the time)
Reason: My opinion, they did not exercise sufficient discipline and develop legal techniques to minimize bop losses.
I certainly am not suggesting you move out of state, that was not the point I was trying to make by any means. Only that there are legal means to outfox a bop.
I would bet most guys do not even realize they create their own bop problems.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
723 posts
Jul 10, 2007
9:54 AM
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If Red-Lobster feeds me for free everyday, guess where I will be eating?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Electric-man
390 posts
Jul 10, 2007
10:35 AM
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McDonalds?
Val
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Missouri-Flyer
724 posts
Jul 10, 2007
10:39 AM
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LMAO,
Maybe after a few days of Shrimp.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1430 posts
Jul 10, 2007
10:50 AM
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Tony I'm going to somewhat roll with Hector on this one. I get tired of reading over and over again about how you or someone else lived here or there and didn't lose birds. Hey that is great, but stop rubbing it into others faces, particularly to make it sound as what others do is wrong and your way is right. From Hectors comments, he is like A TON of guys I know in So Cal right now, they get hammered no matter when they fly. I on the other hand have smooth sailing skies right now as I usually do during the summer. I can fly anything, anytime. But that is the way it usually is here at my house this time of year. YET!!!...five miles in a straight line from me, one of my friends can't even let his birds out because the falcon will tear them to shreds. Dammit it is summer and now he can't fly in what was the one of the few times we could. Another friend is having to indure a similar situation. One guy here lost three birds in one day several days ago. Yet I know of some others who haven't seen a pred in quite a while. It all depends on your area and the tide of being unlucky moves and shifts around the region.
I won't condone the breeding of six month wonders. In fact I am greatly opposed to that idea! Stop the preaching already...lol.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2007 10:51 AM
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BlueJayLoft
1 post
Jul 10, 2007
11:13 AM
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Have you guys ever thought that falconers might be using your birds as feeding and exercise grounds? When you have a smooth sailing and 5 miles away don’t, then you guys that are affected need to take a closer look!! You will be surprised of what you will stumble on.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1432 posts
Jul 10, 2007
11:27 AM
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I've never seen a bird with jessies come through here. An inprinted man-hunted falcon will usually have jessies on. Man falcons will usually hunt right down into your yard. Wild ones generally avoid coming close.
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nicksiders
1864 posts
Jul 10, 2007
11:52 AM
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BlueJay,
I noticed that was your first post....welcome to the site.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1441 posts
Jul 10, 2007
1:16 PM
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Well Brian, I get tired too. I am not rubbing anybody's nose in anything. I get tired of hearing guys cry about losing birds but who continually release their birds into the bop gauntlet. Maybe I am too subtle in my posts or some are too thick headed to get it. Let me make it a little clearer:
“If your birds are being slaughtered wholesale, please, SERIOUSLY reconsider raising performing pigeons or change your methods because when you take the law into your own hands, your actions can give me and other law-abiding roller fanciers a bad name!”
Brian, look, the roller hobby faces an internal existential threat of our own making, which is the mentality among so many of us that it is "okay" to protect our birds from bop regardless of what the law says about it. We, as a group so easily dismiss the law on this point with a shrug of the shoulders.
We accept it as part of the game when some guy loses dozens and dozens of rollers every year to bop and see it almost as a badge of honor that with such huge losses the person manages to carry on year after year. Maybe instead someone needs to tell the guy to stop slaughtering his birds.
There are only 3 choices:
1 Keep slaughtering your birds (don’t associate with me)
2 Find legal remedies to minimize bop losses (research and listen to success stories for ideas)
3 Get out of performing rollers (there are lots of other pigeon breeds)
Ahhh, but wait! It’s your backyard you do whatever you want. Tough $@it for me when I get painted with the same broad brush as those alleged to have illegally destroyed protected birds of prey.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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wafer kits
12 posts
Jul 10, 2007
2:01 PM
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Hi Tony;
At the risk of sounding repetitive, one means of out-thinking BOP is flying portable. You may still lose a bird or two occasionally but will not have a steady stream of losses and are operating well within the law. Al
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1433 posts
Jul 10, 2007
2:29 PM
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Tony, the only comments in regards to doing anything illegal when it comes to BOP were your own. That wasn't part of this discussion, but apparently is always on your mind. The discussion as it pertains to Hector's comments are in regards to where the hobby "could" be force to go in lieu of a vastly growing problem, that WILL get increasingly worse as each year passes. In the spirit of trying to lure you back to the intent of that discussion, I will reiterate that I would not condone the swaying towards breeding one year wonders. BUT, given the increasing problem, it will become one of a very few options for many people both now and in the future if they want to continue to fly rollers in competition. Whether or not some people lock down, they live in an area that is NOW home to vicious killers year-round. Couple that with living in what is basically roller mecca in terms of sheer numbers of enthusiasts, both backyard and organized competitors, locking up generally just increases the neighbors chances of getting creamed. I've often pondered what the results would be if, in some magical and disciplined way, every flyer of pigeons, regardless of the breed or situation, ceased to fly for 6 months in the greater So Cal area. I believe a dent could be made in the population of the villians that haunt flyers by either starving them out or forcing them to migrate some place else, thus greatly eliminating the possibility that some people would seek to breed short term flyers. I suspect though it would only be a temporary fix.
You have to remember that I also raise show breeds, so I can get my pigeon fix in a variety of arenas. But 95 percent of roller flyers aren't, generally by choice, in that same situation. Therefore I find it very difficult to tell someone they should just get out of the roller hobby. I might be a very defiant individual, but I am not a dictator.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2007 2:31 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1442 posts
Jul 10, 2007
4:21 PM
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WOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That sound was the point going over your head...OWNED!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
730 posts
Jul 10, 2007
4:25 PM
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Tho I know Tony from personal meetings, and hopefully someday will get the pleasure to meet Brian, I think you both have very strong opinions, and are FUNNY AS HELL.. you sound like my brother and i at a family reunion.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1443 posts
Jul 10, 2007
4:35 PM
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Hey Al, besides pictures, I have never seen a portable kit box. If what Brian says is true (it is) that 1 guy could be having problems while just a few miles away another one isn't having any problems at all, then it is a matter of finding the choice location to fly portable from.
I guess you could fly out of a park, a distant field or whatever. Once you found a good spot and flew continually from that place, would the kit do better than say using several locations?
I can see where portable flying could be a viable solution to local bop problems. Of course it lacks the convenience of backyard flying but in our mobile society should not be that big a deal.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1434 posts
Jul 10, 2007
5:02 PM
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Tony, the only point you try to make is to your own benefit. Sorry but that is the way I see it. And given that I am always looking for a good arguement, even when I totally agree with the other person, you are always an easy adversary. Besides it gets your page views up (wink), which is good for business right?
One of these days when all of this is over, I'll show you the page after page from this site in the evidence from the entire operation. For you and a lot of others, Whoosh will have a totally different meaning.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1444 posts
Jul 10, 2007
7:50 PM
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Hey Brian, I too like a good debate, however, I am having trouble understanding which point in this thread is to my personal benefit? If you mean by traffic, the site is averaging 495 more page views per day than the same period last year (7-01-06 thru 7-10-06). So traffic is up with or without our debate in this thread.
I said it before and I will say it again, controversy and argument does not bring me any new business, I am able to easily track it, if it did, I would bring up the color issue every other day! LOL
Roller-Pigeon.Com’s business comes primarily because visitors enjoy the site and decide to support our effort in building a unique community of roller fanciers, provide site features such as Live Roller Chat, All Roller Talk and a professional website search engine. So when they need a product, they consider doing business here and that is appreciated very much.
We are not getting rich doing this; most visitors read but don't buy, however, right now we are just getting by and enjoying every minute of it.
Should I read your “you are always an easy adversary” comment to mean what, that I am stupid and take your bait or that I humor you and engage your all knowing persona? LOL
“I'll show you the page after page from this site in the evidence from the entire operation”, if you or anyone else said something on this site which is a public forum to implicate themselves in some illegal activity then the responsibility for your words are your own.
Before OHR ever came known, I had deleted a number of threads or issued warnings numerous times on my own and a couple times at your suggestion, its also part of the posting policy.
When the undercover agent came to my place, it was as clean as a whistle because I do not trap, shoot or in any way harm bop. I have provided suggestions and ideas to help others; you seem to think I am trying to tell others what to do. I would rather roller fanciers respect the law and not get into trouble. We are in a new time for the roller hobby and we have to stop the kind of thinking that got so many into trouble in the first place.
If I step out to the front to encourage a new way of thinking about the bop problems then it’s because I see no other club or organization doing it for the roller fancier.
You have 3 choices, everyone makes one. WOOOOSHHHHH is for people who don’t get it.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2007 7:59 PM
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Hector Coya
181 posts
Jul 10, 2007
9:10 PM
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What's the diference between a 6 month wonder and a bird that roll's a nice 30ft in the second year of flying,
(your feed bill)
dose that make any sence?
Hector C
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1435 posts
Jul 10, 2007
9:44 PM
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Hector, a six month wonder is a bird(s) that come into the roll at a very early age, usually at 3-4 months, work like gangbusters and often look like superstars, then gradually start to fall apart, most before they reach their first birthday. That is a six month wonder. You can sometimes see them at lofts where the person is always flying different birds from month to month.
The 30 footer two-year old is somewhat self-explanatory. There are often a few exceptions, but it is pretty safe to assume that pigeon and ones like it matured into the spin and most will continue to be a decent bird as long as the manager knows how to control and work with older spinners.
Tony, my intent is that you are worthy debating adversary and always full of a point that is easily challenged. There are no all-knowing personas in this hobby unless someone puts that label upon another.
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wafer kits
13 posts
Jul 10, 2007
9:53 PM
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Tony;
Possibly many will not fly portable because they don't think the kits can perform as well as those from a stationary loft. I believe those who are adept at putting up winning kits could also do well flying mobile. We need more people who are interested in this aspect to give it a try. My thoughts are concerned with avoiding BOP and enjoying your birds. Sometimes BOP's attack but they are not sitting there waiting like they are in your back yard. Most rollers can outfly the predators if they can see them coming; (not sure about falcons). Yes, you can fly the kit from one spot many times if you just don't go there more than 2 or 3 times in a row. Al
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