George Ruiz
330 posts
Jul 26, 2007
11:07 PM
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I think we all should take a second and think how much time and effort have we put into the N.B.R.C.
Have you ever scheduled a Prelim ? have you judged other regions ? Have you served as a reginal Director or In any form of elected office ? Have you even ran for a position ?
How many kids did you start in the hobby to keep them from gangs and drugs ?
how many new flyers have you started in the hobby or pointed to the N.B.R.C. for membership.How many shows have you judged ? how many local clubs have you formed.How many birds did you donate to fundraisers,
OR DID YOU JUST SIT BACK AND LET OTHERS DO ALL THE WORK ?
in no way does this post reflect the opinion of the N.B.R.C. or any of its members. It is my opinion.
george
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2007 11:21 PM
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nicksiders
1943 posts
Jul 26, 2007
11:10 PM
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I have not done enough; I have become a recluse. I have to decide what I can and cannot do and then follow through.
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Nick
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George Ruiz
332 posts
Jul 26, 2007
11:18 PM
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Nick didnt you start Big River roller club ?
If you did thats a Hell of alot more than some other Men have done.
George
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parlorfancier916
342 posts
Jul 27, 2007
12:11 AM
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I have introduced my friends to competition, where they have forgoten the fascination of having these pigeons. I have not done enough but I have done too much lol.
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Nrhoua (Doua) Xiong
4581 25th ave. sacramento C.A. 95820
http://freewebs.com/performingrollers
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1488 posts
Jul 27, 2007
4:57 AM
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Hey George, what's really your point?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 5:41 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1491 posts
Jul 27, 2007
5:45 AM
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Let's see, okay, here is my question; how much is a person supposed to do for the club before he can have an opinion about its direction and actions of some or all its officers?
Who gets to set that standard? I guess George does by virtue of his question.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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C.J.
1536 posts
Jul 27, 2007
6:24 AM
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Just because people haven't done any of the thingsfor the NBRC that you listed doesn't mean they haven't done alot for the hobby.
I personally don't belong to the NBRC and have no interest. It doesn't mean I think it is bad it just isn't for me. I think guys such as follows have done just as much if not more for the hobby then what you listed.
What about the guys who give birds away that they have worked on the family for years?
What about the guys who take the time to take their birds to schools to educated young children that pigeons are more than a pest?
What about the guys who take a young kid and teach him the love of the roller, or hand a kid a pair of birds and spend hours fielding their questions and calls?
What about the guys on this site who always have a minute to offer advice to anyone needing help?
What about the guys on this site who have sent birds to guys in need just because they wanted to help?
I could go on for hours but I won't but last what about Tony who started this site and has kept it going so that we all had a common ground where we could vent our frustrations and sorrows? A lot of the things I mentioned were done by as hell of alot of guys that I have gotten to know on this site over the years. I think it is unfair to think just because people aren't involved in the NBRC they they aren't contributing to the hobby. Because if you take off your blinders you will see that there is a lot going on out there besides the NBRC. My hat goes off to Tony for this site and the information posted here. My hat also goes off to each and everyone of the long timers on here who day in and day out live breathe and eat this hobby. My father in law once asked me what is it weith you and these birds and I replied I have raised them so long I find it hard to imagine life without them. When I loose one it is as if I have lost an old friend. I am not sure what life would be without them and you know what I don't want to find out.
C.J.
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Gregg
115 posts
Jul 27, 2007
7:26 AM
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C.J.
Good Answer.
Dave,
I applaud you for all that you have done. But in all honesty, anyone who pays their dues has a right to jump on this or any other list and pitch a bitch. And here of late with the NBRC, getting on here and pitching a a bitch is about the only way to learn about what is happening with the club. Slowly little threads and bits of information are working their way out for the general membership, information that surely isn't coming from the officers. If guys get some information and then are able to form some opinions, then they can email their RD's asking that something be done. We have two gentlemen who have served the NBRC to the Nth degree. Bob Berggren and Bob Simpson. I'm not going to stand here and say they are perfect, they are not. But through thick and thin, they are two who have done more for this club and deserve the highest accolades.
Back to my point. Participation is not always an option for many people. I won't go into the reasons. But that should not stop them from having the right to get on here and have their say. Perhaps half of this is B.S. But it is one of those nice places where if it stinks, somebody is going to tell you that it stinks in no short order.
Gregg.
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George Ruiz
333 posts
Jul 27, 2007
8:38 AM
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Gregg the question was how much you have done for the N.B.R.C. not someone else.
I guess you can say you called for the President to resign WOW thats a big accomplishment!
The only people that I see wanting Juan to resign have done NOTHING to make the Club better.
I guess paying $25.00 a year and sitting back and letting others do all the work really qualafies you to ask Juan to step down.
not the opinion of the N.B.R.C. or any of its members.
Thanks George
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1492 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:00 AM
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George, you're not very subtle in your questions. Spot them a mile away, have for the longest time.
I am not a politician and only vote for the President every 4 years, but I get to bitch if I want to. Got a problem with that? Too bad.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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birdman
351 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:12 AM
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If you've paid your $25 then you are a supporting member and entitled to an opinion AND a right to vote.
Members that go the extra mile should be commended for their service. However the 'do nothing' members that send in their yearly dues are the overwhelming majority of the club.
George, Not every member wants to be a club leader but every member IS supporting the club financially and entitled to think and express thoughts freely.
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 9:13 AM
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J_Star
1090 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:16 AM
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I have stayed out of the thread for calls to the president of the club to resign for several reasons. But from a business sense it is the best thing he can do is to step a side for now and have somebody, next in command, which has no trouble with the law to handle the daily operation. It is prudent that every elected member to step aside when matters like this could affect the club efficiency, activity and the well being of the club. Let’s put friendship a side and talk like businessmen.
To go back to your question, is it part of the rules that when people join the club needs to do anything else besides paying the dues? Being involved is a personal choice not a requirement. Even competing is not a requirement. Seams like when the club is not in the spot light nothing can get through to them and will not change anything. The committee is not willing to listen to anything that matters to the members. Even the concern of the flyers through their RDs is over looked. Now since the club is under the spot light we are asked what we have done lately to the club.
People who stay away from being involved with the club are due to their desire to stay away from the political crap and the whining that goes on all the time. It is time for the club to look at the past and future and see how to align themselves with reality. It is not business as usual whether we like or not. It is time for a new strategy and new president to spear head this club into the new world. No one is saying negative things about the president of the club. He is a very good man, educated, sincere and good family man. But due to the seriousness of the allegation and the trouble he racked with the law, it is time for a new direction…that is with all due respect.
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ROLLERMAN
145 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:23 AM
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George
What i do for the nbrc is pay my dues every year and for some of us the answer is that simple. Over the years there are many that have done alot for the sport, From your question it looks like you dont know very much about clubs. In every club i have belonged to about 10% are doers and the other 90% do very little or noting at all.And i dont see that changeing.
AL
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 9:25 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1494 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:29 AM
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Hey Al, called the 80/20 Rule. We use it to our advantage or don't and spin our wheels on wasted effort and burn resources.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1495 posts
Jul 27, 2007
9:34 AM
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For what its worth, most of the guys who post on this site buy almost nothing from me, with the exception of 1 or 2, the ones who are my BEST and regular customers post very little or not at all.
George, who should I value most? The ones who put $$ in my business or the ones who I have to monitor what they say and chew up precious time? LOL
I don't understand your logic at all.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Electric-man
444 posts
Jul 27, 2007
10:04 AM
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Hell, I guess I need to make another order and quit posting, I want to be considered one of those "good guys"!LOL
Val
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1497 posts
Jul 27, 2007
10:34 AM
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Hey Val, my Ruby Roller customers are always my best!! Count yourself among them! :)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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nicksiders
1946 posts
Jul 27, 2007
10:42 AM
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I think anyone who frequents this site ought to be buying thier supplies from this site......just makes common sence to me. Click on "visit our store" to the right and get a good idea what is available. When there is a need, buy. A nice lady will turn your order around to you in quick time. Doesn't make sence to order from some one else.
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Nick
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Gregg
116 posts
Jul 27, 2007
1:00 PM
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George,
At least I have the balls to do it publicly. I was waiting till I retired to get really involved. Have had a lot of personal problems to overcome in the past five years. I am stepping up to the plate now, sooner than I wished.
If asking Juan to resign so this club can possibly move forward doesn't meet with your approval, so be it. I bear no animosity for Juan Navarro. But in reality, do you think he is thinking about the good of the NBRC now. No, his lawyer has told him to stay so that he doesn't look guilty. I've got news for you my friend, the USFWS are looking into the conspiracy end of this situation. If they find information that allows them to pursue same, you can kiss the NBRC and it's little surplus good bye. I personally feel that a number of officers need to resign to potentially protect the dissolution of the NBRC.
If asking questions of those in authority brands me as a trouble maker, so be it. Some of that money in the treasury came out of my pocket. Do I have a vested interest, you bet. If you think your remarks bordering on sarcasm are going to deter me, then you don't know me.
I will use the bit of intelligence that my maker gave me and continue to pursue information. If the current officers don't want to provide that information or leadership, then it is time for new leaders. I can't make it any simpler. If you have a better idea, please feel free to step up to the plate.
Gregg Sale.
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 1:02 PM
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Norm_Knox
84 posts
Jul 27, 2007
1:24 PM
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Guys how about we all stop bitching and arguing and start finding a common way, something we all can do to promote this great hobby that we love so much. I’m tired of seeing all of this bull. on here. If the president killed a couple hawks or whatever that is on him and not on us so let him deal with it. I hope I haven’t stepped on anyone’s toe by saying this.
Norm
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Norm_Knox
85 posts
Jul 27, 2007
1:28 PM
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Oh yes and George you know how you promote the club ??? By flying some hell of the birds and being a guy who helps start newcomers weather its with birds or advice or just by being a good man in the hobby.
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nicksiders
1949 posts
Jul 27, 2007
1:32 PM
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Norm,
It has been awhile. How is school at UT? Hope everything is going well for you. It is always good to see the young guys getting involved and your insight says alot for you.
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Nick
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Missouri-Flyer
775 posts
Jul 27, 2007
2:00 PM
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Tony,
your on a roll..I couldn't agree more with your responses tho...Keep typing brother!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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JMUrbon
286 posts
Jul 27, 2007
3:34 PM
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Goerge you will see that history has shown that we need the guys that dont get involved much more that the ones that do. What I am saying is that without them the club wouldnt have funds to operate. That is the same with the WC and FF. 90% of the fliers know going into it that they haven't a chance at winning but without their much needed support the cost to operate the fly would be just to extream and thus not be possible. There is always going to be a small % of guys that will do most of the work and believe me I dont feel they get enough praise for what they do but in the end this is still a club and available to anyone willing to send in thier dues. That means they are entitled to an opinion. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Velo99
1238 posts
Jul 27, 2007
3:57 PM
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Norm,
Thats what the point of contention seems to be at this juncture. The club can`t move forward with The EC sitting on their hands.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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wafer kits
25 posts
Jul 27, 2007
5:04 PM
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Tony;
I have never bought anything from your store simply because I have been dealing with another supplier for many years and I do not abandon my friends in any undertaking. Having said that, I think you are doing a wonderful service with this list and would be willing to contribute to your efforts if it would help you. Al
P.S. Even my supplier will never get rich from my orders!
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George Ruiz
334 posts
Jul 27, 2007
6:21 PM
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Gregg I am happy to hear that you will take a bigger role and attempt to help the N.B.R.C.become a better club.
I hope someone will nominate me in my region for Director in my region and hopefully you can win a position and I will look forward to working with you to accomplish some of your goals. Like maybe a bylaw that makes being found guilty of harming a BOP a removable from office offense.
Russ and Joe I am not saying that any members opinions dont count I am saying that they should read the bylaws and make sure the person you are asking to resign has broken a bylaw. Also there is a thing called CHAIN OF COMMAND that members should abide by (R.D.,Vice President,President).
further more I dont think it would be a good idea if all the elected officers (20%) resigned and hand over the leadership of the club to the (80%) of DO NOTHINGS as the Club would fail to exist.
Also I hope every member now realizes how importent it is to VOTE if you look at the last two elections the VOTE count it is very LOW.
Thanks George
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 6:26 PM
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Gregg
118 posts
Jul 27, 2007
6:45 PM
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George,
Part of my concern at this point is will there be a club when all of this "sitting on their hands" comes to nothing left. I want certain people out of office now because the process of removing them will take longer than the upcoming election. I want an educational program for our members so that they will know how to positively promote our hobby to the people they interact with daily. I will take ten minutes to tell people about my birds any time, any where and do it on a regular basis.
Yes, we have to face the hard facts that our public image is severely marred. It will take a lot of time to repair it. There is a ground swell out there that is tired of the status quo of the NBRC. If it doesn't change soon, it will not survive. I don't want that to happen. But are we going to be ready if it does happen? We have to start planning for an alternative means of unity.
And we are going to have to make darn sure that we do nothing that puts us in this position again. Censure and banishment may be something that has to be in the rulebook for those that break the law, officer or not.
Do I like all of what I am saying here, no. But the members need a club that is much more open and responsive to their needs.
Gregg.
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sundance
145 posts
Jul 27, 2007
7:36 PM
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Joe, you hit the nail on the head with your post. I fit into the catagory that has entered a kit or two knowing full well my chances of even placing were slim to none. But by flying I got a chance to learn from the judge, meet new friends in the hobby, and of course most importantly, I helped support the fly. Last year I went along on the fall fly for our entire region for all the reasons mentioned before. I paid out of my pocket hotel bills ,meals and gas for much of the trip. for all this I asked and expected nothing in return. This was my way of supporting the club and the fly. At some point in the past couple years I`ve traveled to every neighboring state to visit flyers and observe club flys. Often giving up vacation time I`ve earned from work.After working 60 to 70 hours a week on average, George, this is the best I can do.
If I was retired or even working a normal 40 or so hours a week, I would love to step up and do more. I have accepted the role of judge for our little circle of flyers for the S.I.R.C. for this year, but in all fairness we have not had the participation we would hope for this year. But if our flyers were able and willing, You can bet I would be there ( in my spare time) LOL.... to support the club.
I have many years of management experience in a very large company. I manage nearly 200 employees currently. George, although I have done little in this hobby compared to many who have come before me and my little loft of unperfected spinners, AND, the yearly dues I pay, I feel I have every right to voice my personal opinion that Juans best move for the clubs benefit would be to step down from office. I can add to that in saying that I dont know Juan personally. I have absolutely NOTHING against the man, and given the right situation at a later time, would even be willing to vote him back into office if he so desired.
All of that being said, I`m reminded of your original post... So, George, what have you done to support the club and what are your qualifications to believe you would be a good candidate for an NBRC office? Just curious?
One last note, Gregg, I think we are one the same page here also. This is for the clubs best interest and longevity. I would like to think this club is going to be around when I someday get to retire and enjoy it to its fullist extent. The only way towards healing the black eye the club has suffered is the take that first step, which would be fixing that wounded part which is obviously the presidents position. Am I comfortable with having to do this? Not really. But am I confident in my " opinion" ? absolutely...
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 7:55 PM
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George Ruiz
335 posts
Jul 27, 2007
10:47 PM
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Hi Sundance
I am a former N.B.R.C. region 9A director, I cofounded the San Gabriel Valley Spinners I served as a LAD ( local area director) for the F/F and the W/C for 3 years before getting voted in to office.
I have started many people in the hobby, and pointed them to the N.B.R.C for membership. I have entered two kits in as many flys I could W/C and F/F regardless if I had birds to fly or not I even paid for kits of other people who did not have the money to fly their kits. I also donated birds to auctions for fundraisers
I have put together a number of fly's and I am currently in the process of petitioning the World Cup for our own region.
I hope to build on these small things I have done by serving the N.B.R.C. and its members in the future and I look forward to working to make the changes for the better of the club and the members the club serves.
Thanks
George
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2007 11:34 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1512 posts
Jul 28, 2007
2:51 AM
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Gosh Aunt Molly, some day I'm gonna be just like good ole' Uncle Ruiz...
Seriously, good work George and keep it up.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Jul 28, 2007 2:51 AM
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Gregg
119 posts
Jul 28, 2007
5:50 AM
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Dave,
I agree with almost everything that you have reiterated. The problem, as I see it, resides in the potential indictment of the NBRC as an organization that sponsored the illicit destruction of BOP's. That is and will be a huge stretch of the imagination on the part of the USFWS, but one that I am sure they are actively seeking to make. When and if they bring down an indictment of that scale, the NBRC will cease to function as we know it. I personally believe that is a situation that we need to be prepared for. Again, if we have our heads buried in the sand, we'll never know what in the heck ran up our a__. The NBRC is the best club that we have had nationally for quite some time. At the same time I also believe that some fresh blood would help to carry us through this scenario. Your's and Cliff's post on another thread seem to indicate that we are not moving in any direction until we know the outcome of the indicted members of the NBRC. Loyalty is a good quality, blind loyalty is nothing short of ridiculous. The continuation of these cases could easily add another year or more to the stagnation that we are currently enduring.
If the officers and Executive Committee are functioning as you and Cliff allege, then I would like to know the outcome of awarding Kenny Billings his Master Flyer Points.
If officers of the NBRC did their job as they are supposed to, this should not even be an issue. Kenny and I disagree on some things, we agree on some others. Irregardless, if I were running the program, it would have been resolved irrespective of my personal feeling towards Kenny.
But you are definitely right about one thing Dave, I should be taking all of this to my RD. And I have sent him some. He will be getting quite a bit more from me, including this post just on the possibility that he is not a member here.
By the way Dave, I do value your perspective. I know full well that honest and open discussions such as these are what our membership need. It may put a few to sleep reading some of it, but it also helps many understand what is happening with our club. And I do not believe that Juan's resignation would influence the outcome of his case in any way. And I do believe that we have every right to discuss it and the future affects it will have on the NBRC.
I for one believe that everyone shutting up and not addressing the issues would tend to further the idea that a conspiracy exists.
Tell me Dave, Am I wrong? I believe not. I know I am not making some officers of the NBRC happy right now. But I've never been a part of the inner sanctum and really only want to see the NBRC weather the storm with their boots on.
By the way, the d fund is up and running. Any and all contributions are welcome. Please send them to
d fund c/o Gregg Sale
1045 W. Dakota St.
Spring Valley, Illinois 61362-1605.
Thanks,
Gregg.
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George Ruiz
336 posts
Jul 28, 2007
9:11 AM
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Gregg
remember that old saying "NEGATIVE thoughts come from the evil one"
have a little faith man every thing will be ok.
George
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sundance
146 posts
Jul 28, 2007
10:01 AM
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well said George and good job. Really. keep it going.
Theres also an old saying" just cause the smoke aint burned your eyes yet, dont mean there aint no fire"
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Norm_Knox
86 posts
Jul 29, 2007
12:30 AM
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Well what I cant seem to understand is how would they hold the whole club responsible for the actions of a single individual. What I’m trying to say is that Juan is a grown man and he knew what the consequences of his actions could be if he got caught. It would be like blaming a whole human race just because somebody goes a little crazy and kills someone.
Hey Nick,
Nice to see you remember me. School is good, just two more years left until I’m done, and than I’m building me a whole another freaking HOUSE for my pigeons. LOL Man had to lock up my birds because its seems that BOP are back way too early this year, and what really sucks is that I wasn’t able to fly out my young birds real well. Later
Norm
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Gregg
125 posts
Jul 29, 2007
2:31 PM
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George,
I'm playing the devil's advocate to some degree because I believe that we need to think about all of the consequences. I start every morning saying a prayer for every roller man that got caught in the snare. They, and that includes Juan, are all good men that have served the hobby well, at least the ones that I am familiar with. Some of the guys down in California I don't know. Irregardless, I am willing to put forth the effort to raise funds for their needs.
As you can see, I am saying most of this on this list because this is where most of the members are. You can feel free to take anything that I have said to other lists and get a thread started there. We need to have an open and honest conversation going about this. And I will take your challenge and put myself out there to support the NBRC. Wonder how many votes I'd get. I think Troy is looking for some one to carry the ball for our region. Perhaps it is time for me to get going.
Gregg.
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